Can OSAS Survive Romans 11?

[BobRyan]

This is part-2 of "How Romans 11 debunks OSAS"


For any doctrine to survive "Sola Scriptura" it has to be measured against the inconvenient details in scripture -- this is true of OSAS just like any other doctrine.



The lost vs saved group in Romans 11

1. Lost -- those unbelieving Jews that were "removed" that were "not spared".

2. Saved - those who "stand by their faith alone".

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Anyone that can look at these texts and imagine that they are not talking about "you gentiles" that are "wild branches" that "ARE GRAFTED IN" to the very place FROM which SOME Jews fell -- is using something other than exegesis to study the Bible.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

1. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.
2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.
3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.
4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.
5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".

But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

What say you?

Do the Lost "stand by their faith"??

Or is that only the saved?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Doubting Thomas]

What say you?

Do the Lost "stand by their faith"??

No--the fact that these Gentiles whom Paul is addressing were noted to be currently "stand(ing) by faith" shows they were not among 'the Lost', but were believers. They were currently grafted into the olive branch, from which the unbelieving Jews were cut off because of their unbelief. This is the same group of Gentile believes that Paul warned could share in the same fate of the unbelieving Jews (ie "you also will be cut off" v.22) if they did not continue in the goodness of God.

So to answer your question listed in the title of the thread: No, OSAS cannot survive Romans 11.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Bob, You need another thread to beat that drum of yours? lol

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I for one am awaiting Darrell's return to answer some of the points BR has made concerning Darrell's comments. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

No--the fact that these Gentiles whom Paul is addressing were noted to be currently "stand(ing) by faith" shows they were not among 'the Lost', but were believers.

That is agreement! I will take it! :jesus:

They were currently grafted into the olive branch, from which the unbelieving Jews were cut off because of their unbelief.

Again - :thumbs:

DT -

This is the same group of Gentile believers that Paul warned could share in the same fate of the unbelieving Jews (ie "you also will be cut off" v.22) if they did not continue in the goodness of God.

So to answer your question listed in the title of the thread: No, OSAS cannot survive Romans 11.

And there you have it!

:1_grouphug:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

HP: Sin is no laughing matter, and neither is telling the truth of sin and its penalty.

Now I for one believe that there is a clear distinction between a sinner and a believer, but I know how those look upon it that are promoting a sinning religion by telling us that sin in a believers life will not separate them from a Holy God. Now holding to the thought that all believers are still sinners, it should awaken even the most staunch supporter of OSAS from their slumber knowing that if they are not converted “FROM” the error of their ways, being the sinners they claim to be, this verse does not bode well for their eventual peaceful repose.

 

[Darrell C]

This is part-2 of "How Romans 11 debunks OSAS"


For any doctrine to survive "Sola Scriptura" it has to be measured against the inconvenient details in scripture -- this is true of OSAS just like any other doctrine.



The lost vs saved group in Romans 11

1. Lost -- those unbelieving Jews that were "removed" that were "not spared".

2. Saved - those who "stand by their faith alone".




1. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.
2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.
3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.
4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.
5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".

But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

What say you?

Do the Lost "stand by their faith"??

Or is that only the saved?

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Those of Israel who were cut out in Romans 11 are the ones who are of the synagogue of satan.

Jesus said of these, "Ye are of your father, the devil, and his works you will do."

I never meant to imply that the gentiles were such, but, though they are not Jews, and they are unbelieving, they certainly are of the devil.

Lets look at a few things concerning the groups contrasted:

In ch. 10, Israel is ignorant of God's righteousness and is lost (vv.1-3).

Concerning righteousness, as is always the case, it is through faith in Christ (the scripture cannot be broken):

10:4-For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So we have established two facts: Israel is lost (and this speaks on a national basis, there is always a remnant); they will only be saved (graft back into the tree of relationship with God) by faith in Christ apart from their own righteousness and that of the law (by keeping the law, which was the only thing they knew).

How canthey do this?

9-That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Easy enough so far. Now back to Israel, one of the groups of Rom. 11 we are discussing.

10:16-But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Israel received the gospel (c.f. also Heb. 4:1,2), but they did not believe.

Gentiles now, have heard the gospel, but have they all believed?

It will be the same with Gentiles as it was with Israel:

10:21-But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a dis obedient and gainsaying people.

Now for the text in question:

Although Israel has been blinded to the truth, they are not forever cut off from coming back into relationship with God;

Even as the gentiles have no guarantee that they will be true believers...like as Israel, they have the possibility of becoming like Israel, seeking righteousness apart from faith in Jesus Christ (and specifically, seeking righteousness by the law, which, as 10:4 states, isn't going to happen).

Bob and H.P.,

You see this passage as you do because you are locked into this viewpoint.

The only way to see this in context is to examine the foundation of your faith, which is Jesus Christ, and His atoning work on your behalf.

Again, this passage contrasts believers with unbelievers.

Those seeking righteousness through faith, and those seeking righteousness by works.

Notice 11:32-For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This would be contradictive if this passage deals with individuals...for there is always a remnant who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

You cannot make this passage to propose a born-again believer can end up in eternal separation from God.

It is the people of the Gentiles who are at risk of being cut out...It is the people of the gentiles who stand by faith.

But, as I said before, I cannot convince you, only God can change a heart.

I think though, if we examine all the passages you use to denounce eternal security, you will see that your doctrine will not stand up to the whole teaching of the believers position in Christ.

I will examine your other thread, but ask again, where to next?

I have already stated that I believe Matt. 18 is dealing with Israel, not those who are born again;

And that Galatians is dealing with those, who, just as they are in Romans, are seeking righteousness by the law.

So again, what else will you offer to suggest that Christ cannot save those who are in Him?

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,

Those of Israel who were cut out in Romans 11 are the ones who are of the synagogue of satan.

Jesus said of these, "Ye are of your father, the devil, and his works you will do."

I never meant to imply that the gentiles were such, but, though they are not Jews, and they are unbelieving, they certainly are of the devil.

No text speaks to unbelievers (jew or gentile) and states that they ARE STANDING only by FAITH.

No text speaks to unbelievers (jew or gentile) and warns them against the risk of falling from a condition of unbelief.

This text is explicit about the unbelieving Jews "He is able to GRAFT THEM in AGAIN - IF they do not continue in UNBELIEF".

Those NOT in the olive tree then are those who are "in unbelief".

Those who ARE in that olive tree (both Jew and Gentile) are BELIEVERS that stand only by their faith -- at least that is what the text of Romans 11 says.

Paul is explicit in Romans 11 that the goal is to "SAVE SOME OF THEM" - there is no way to work that around to say "SAVE the entire NATION".

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]

Thus in regard to Romans 11 - OSAS does not fair well at all.

So then - let us look at Romans 10 next.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Lets look at a few things concerning the groups contrasted:

In ch. 10, Israel is ignorant of God's righteousness and is lost (vv.1-3).

Concerning righteousness, as is always the case, it is through faith in Christ (the scripture cannot be broken):

10:4-For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So we have established two facts: Israel is lost (and this speaks on a national basis, there is always a remnant); they will only be saved (graft back into the tree of relationship with God) by faith in Christ apart from their own righteousness and that of the law (by keeping the law, which was the only thing they knew).

How canthey do this?

9-That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Easy enough so far.

12 for there is no distinction between Jew and greek; for the same lord is lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on him;
13 for “whoever will call on the name of the lord will be saved. ”
14how then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
16 however, they did not all heed the Good News; for isaiah says, “lord, who has believed our report?”
[/quote]

Paul argues that "they (literal Jews) did not ALL heed" the Good News -

Paul argues that with God there is no such thing as a division between Jew and Gentile

So it is no surprise in Romans 11 that believers - both Jew and Gentile are being pictured as grafted into the same olive tree.

In EVERY nation God hears those who turn to him - whether Jew or Gentile.

Peter first discovered this truth in Acts 10.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,




Bob and H.P.,

You see this passage as you do because you are locked into this viewpoint.

The only way to see this in context is to examine the foundation of your faith, which is Jesus Christ, and His atoning work on your behalf.

Again, this passage contrasts believers with unbelievers.

Those seeking righteousness through faith, and those seeking righteousness by works.

Notice 11:32-For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This would be contradictive if this passage deals with individuals...for there is always a remnant who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

A couple of points to note.

1. The reason we see the problems for OSAS that are raised in Romans 11 is because we are holding to strick form of exegesis in the details of Romans 11.

2. The reason we "like what we read" there is because we do not already hold to the man-made tradition of OSAS before coming to that chapter - so it is easy for us simply to accept it for what it says.

3. The reason you are having to do so much work trying to get around the problem of Romans 11 for OSAS - is because you come to it with a bias in favor of OSAS.

4. In Romans 3 and Gal 3 we see that God has placed the entire world under condemnation for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God - every single individual. It matters not what nation they are from.

Thus ALL need Salvation - ALL are in need of the Gospel.

And as Romans 11 points out SOME - among both Jew and Gentile HAVE accepted it.

You cannot make this passage to propose a born-again believer can end up in eternal separation from God.

There is no "making" in this case because even you admitted that those Jews that ARE faithful ARE still in the olive tree - and those unbelieving Jews are ARE removed.

And Paul is explicit that those IN the Olive Tree "ARE standing ONLY by their Faith".

Thus no need for the non-OSAS view to attempt to "make anything" beyond what is written in this case.

It is the people of the Gentiles who are at risk of being cut out...It is the people of the gentiles who stand by faith.

It is ALL in the Olive tree -(both Jew and Gentile) that stand "only by their faith"

There is NO case where we have Jew or Gentile said in Romans 11 to be STILL IN the Olive tree - but they are NOT standing by faith.

That detail is not at all present in the text itself.

What we have In the text itself is a WARNING that if someone tries it - they will be removed.

But, as I said before, I cannot convince you, only God can change a heart.

Well in this case - God would need to add details or change the language in the text of Romans 11 - to get to the point you seem to want out of it.

I think though, if we examine all the passages you use to denounce eternal security, you will see that your doctrine will not stand up to the whole teaching of the believers position in Christ.

I will examine your other thread, but ask again, where to next?

I have already stated that I believe Matt. 18 is dealing with Israel, not those who are born again;

And that Galatians is dealing with those, who, just as they are in Romans, are seeking righteousness by the law.

So again, what else will you offer to suggest that Christ cannot save those who are in Him?

God bless.

I would never argue the point "Christ cannot save those who are IN HIM"

I would argue "the detail" where Christ HIMSELF points to "branches IN HIM" that are "removed" and "cast into the fire" John 15.

IN Gal 5 we have another thread to deal with it - but Christ stated that those in Gal 5 "were running well"!

There is no way to get that worked around to "were never saved".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jedi Knight]

Jesus said "I give them ETERNAL LIFE and they shall NEVER perish!" For the Lord Himself has said "I will NEVER leave you,NOR forsake you!" Jesus said again "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will NEVER drive away". Maybe the problem is you should look up the word NEVER in the dictionary. :type:

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Bob,

I have said, you will not be convinced with one section (one half of a verse, really) being explained.

I do, as you say, have to "work" at this in order to try to clarify the passage.

You take "...and thou standest by faith," and completely ignore three chapters of context to make your claim.

I could hold the same position with, "for he hat said, I will never leave thee nor forsake thee."

How can you miss the meaning in that? Seems simple enough.

See faith in Hebrews:

10:38-Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Basic bible principle: man is justified by faith, old testament, new testament alike.

v.39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

What is it they are drawing back unto perdition from?

Answer that question for me.

I can guarantee you can't because it flies in the face of doctrine that oppses eternal salvation.

You are trying to prove your position with one verse yanked out of context.

This is why I ask you to provide more.

I am confident in the doctrine of eternal security, and I wish you had "the better hope" of the New Covenant.

Perhaps if you see enough of your passages lose their legs, you might recognize that born again believers are santified once (for all) and are made perfect forever.

By Christ...not our works.

Going to look at your Gal. thread now.

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell: You are trying to prove your position with one verse yanked out of context.

HP: Darrell, your real ability/desire to reason fairly is starting to show.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,

I have said, you will not be convinced with one section (one half of a verse, really) being explained.

I do, as you say, have to "work" at this in order to try to clarify the passage.

You take "...and thou standest by faith," and completely ignore three chapters of context to make your claim.

I could hold the same position with, "for he hat said, I will never leave thee nor forsake thee."

How can you miss the meaning in that? Seems simple enough.

I point to a whole list of inconvenient details IN the Romans 11 chapter itself - not just one verse - that entire list is what OSAS has to survive in Romans 11.

1. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.
2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.
3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.
4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.
5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".

But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

Romans 11 is not about "Christ leaving the Jews that fell" it is about the Jews leaving Christ.

thus any promise of the form "I will never leave THEE" cannot be bent to "you will never be able to choose to leave Me".

Particularly when we see warning after warning in scripture where that very thing is going on.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

HP: Darrell, your real ability/desire to reason fairly is starting to show.

Then I should resort to insults and refuse to answer simple questions?

Naw, won't do it.

Okay, what is the perfection of Hebrews 10:14?

Come on, thats an easy one for one so well versed.

God bless, I'll check in tomorrow for your answer.

 

[Darrell C]

I point to a whole list of inconvenient details IN the Romans 11 chapter itself - not just one verse - that entire list is what OSAS has to survive in Romans 11.

Your list is imperfect:
. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.This is true.[/COLOR]
2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.true
3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.true
4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.true[/COLOR]
5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".

This is where you blunder: Very few of Israel were truly Israel. A whole generation died in the wilderness because of unbelief.
You are saying these were believers cut off, but in fact they were not...they were unbelievers, and the text plainly says so. They heard the gospel, but they did not have faith.

These unbelievers were cut out of the tree because of this, gentile believers will be likewise. They will remain if they (like those of Israel who were truly of Israel, the people of God in Spirit and truth) continue in faith.

I really can't see how you miss that.

And you do base your entire argument from this passage on 1/2 a verse.

Read 10-12 for proper context.

But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

It is telling all who profess to be God's people who are not to beware.

Romans 11 is not about "Christ leaving the Jews that fell" it is about the Jews leaving Christ.

Bob, this is about unbelieving Israel being cut out of the blessing of Covenantal relationship with God.

It is contrasted with believing Gentiles being cut out of covenantal relationship with God.

Both are cut out because of unbelief. Congratulations, you have created the "unbelieving believer" with your position.

thus any promise of the form "I will never leave THEE" cannot be bent to "you will never be able to choose to leave Me".

Tell that to Jonah.

Particularly when we see warning after warning in scripture where that very thing is going on.

Only as you see it in your perspective.

Nevertheless, surely you have more than these three passages to promote your doctrinal position?

in Christ,

Bob

More scripture?

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Anyone that can look at these texts and imagine that they are not talking about "you gentiles" that are "wild branches" that "ARE GRAFTED IN" to the very place FROM which SOME Jews fell -- is using something other than exegesis to study the Bible.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Points that cannot be denied.

1. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.
2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.
3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.
4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.
5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".



Questions that to be answered successfully

But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

What say you?

Do the Lost "stand by their faith"??

Or is that only the saved?

=======================

This is where you blunder: Very few of Israel were truly Israel. A whole generation died in the wilderness because of unbelief.

You are saying these were believers cut off, but in fact they were not...they were unbelievers, and the text plainly says so. They heard the gospel, but they did not have faith.

These unbelievers were cut out of the tree because of this, gentile believers will be likewise. They will remain if they (like those of Israel who were truly of Israel, the people of God in Spirit and truth) continue in faith.

I really can't see how you miss that.

And you do base your entire argument from this passage on 1/2 a verse.

Read 10-12 for proper context.

Your response is flawed in these areas.

1. Paul refers to INDIVIDUALS not an entire ethnic group or nation because HE admits to being one of the Jews and HE states HE is "trying to save SOME of them". Thus the INDIVIDUAL context for Romans 11 is actually IN the text itself.

2. Paul affirms that THOSE gentiles WHO ARE standing only by their faith WERE cut off from the wild tree AND GRAFTE IN. Paul never claims that all pagans all idolaters are now grafted into the olive tree of the Church of God as UNBELIEVING IDOL worshipping pagans.

3. Your solution results in UNSAVED pagans grafted in - and still unsaved and NOT standing by their faith -- with SOME other Jews removed from the tree and ALSO unsaved and ALSO not believing.

Then in your model the instruction "HE is able to GRAFT them in AGAIN IF they do not continue" would result in now-BELIEVING Jews being grafted IN Among 100's of millions of PAGANS and idol worshippers as the glories benefit of BELIEVING.

Your solution makes total mush out of the text - and the only benefit for that huge sacrifice is an attempt to spare OSAS.

How can you not see that?

What did I miss?

By explicit contrast Paul states that ONLY those who "Stand by their faith" are actually IN the Olive Tree. His warning to the BELIEVING - SAVED Gentiles that "stand only by their faith" is to take notice of that fact - and to persevere in that faith LEST they be removed.

More scripture?

God bless.

Much more -- but taking this one section at a time to make sure all are aware of just how clearly OSAS is failing these tests of scripture.

(1cor 9 comes to mind "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified". Paul is not just warning the GENTILE INDIVIDUALs who "stand alone by their faith" about the need to persevere firm unto the end)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

It is telling all who profess to be God's people who are not to beware.

On the contrary - Paul is clear that those he speaks to must PERSEVERE in their condition. IF their condition were that of an UNBELIEVER he would not be saying that they need to CONTINUE STANDING alone by their faith.

That is the easy part.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Paul speaks of their GOOD standing with God and that they stand alone by their faith.

Paul does not say "IF you were to become a Christian THEN you WOULD stand by faith".

Paul argues that these were the few among the gentiles that because of their decision to follow Christ WERE broken off from their wild tree - and WERE grafted in to the SAVED group of BELIEVERS - and that in that condition they DO "stand by their faith alone" and that this should not leave them to a condition of pride.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Deleted by HP. The whole notion of the definition of the word 'perfect' in a particlar passage of Heb. in a particular sense is off topic and needs a thread of its own. To continue a discussion on this thread of that nature serves no useful purpose to this discussion.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Anyone that can look at these texts and imagine that they are not talking about "you gentiles" that are "wild branches" that "ARE GRAFTED IN" to the very place FROM which SOME Jews fell -- is using something other than exegesis to study the Bible.

I will try to get my point across one more time...

The gentiles are grafted into the tree, which is the same tree that Israel was a part of...

Was all Israel believers? You will have to say yes to hold to your position that "believing gentiles" (gentiles that are born-again believers) will be cut out of the tree if they do not "stand by faith."

See what I mean? Think about it:

Gentiles are grafted into the tree, which those who disbelieved were cut out of.

Were those of Israel who were believers cut out?

I just can't make it any clearer than that.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

If they change from a state of unbelief, they will be grafted back in...likewise, if those who stand by faith become unbelieving, they will be cut out.

The passage speaks of Israel and Gentiles.

Points that cannot be denied.

1. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.

Exactly: believers (plural).

2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.

As do we all: is everyone in your particular fellowship saved, Bob? Does your Pastor (congregational spiritual leader?) ever preach messages of salvation? Or does he speak only to saved people?

It is no different here.

3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.


Like Abraham being separated from the gentiles.


4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.

Please give scripture for this Room. (just kidding Bob, I know its a typo.

This I disagree with. Again, think about it Bob: ALL Israel was a part of the tree...else they couldn't have been cut out.

In the same sense, ALL GENTILES are part of the tree today.

You cannot deny this without saying that the tree is different today. You cannot say ALL ISRAEL was not part of the tree.


5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".

Again, think of those who have fallen (been cut out): they were part of the tree, but they were not believers.

They were said to "hold this position", but they were cut out just the same.



Questions that to be answered successfully

But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

I see you are wearing this to death. Let me clarify: I did not mean to imply that the synagogue of satan were part of the tree.

They are the ones who are cut out, not those (of Israel and gentiles) who are standing by faith.

I see I will have to be more careful to be clear (I guess all those in the Room need to be addressed in distinct fashion [again, this is humor{its terrible when you have to explain your own jokes}]).

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

What say you?

Do the Lost "stand by their faith"??

Actually, yes (though this doesn't apply to the debate at hand): I believe it takes more faith to be an athiest than to believe in God).

Or is that only the saved?

Concerning our discussion, it is undoubtedly the saved (being, not remaining, in the tree).

Those of Israel who are cut out were OF THE TREE...you cannot dispute this.

Those of the gentiles who will be cut out are OF THE TREE as well.

You create two separate conditions in this text, and your doctrine will not allow you to admit this.

=======================



Your response is flawed in these areas.

1. Paul refers to INDIVIDUALS not an entire ethnic group or nation because HE admits to being one of the Jews and HE states HE is "trying to save SOME of them". Thus the INDIVIDUAL context for Romans 11 is actually IN the text itself.

I agree to a certain extent: scripture does speak to both individuals and collective bodies.

The context, when uncertain, must be validated by the whole teaching of scripture.

While I understand your position, I disagree with it, because I do believe in the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice (and I am not demeaning your personal beliefs, and I'm sure you believe this as well).

This is why I repeatedly ask you to present other scripture...we can't build doctrine apart from the whole teaching of God.

2. Paul affirms that THOSE gentiles WHO ARE standing only by their faith WERE cut off from the wild tree AND GRAFTE IN. Paul never claims that all pagans all idolaters are now grafted into the olive tree of the Church of God as UNBELIEVING IDOL worshipping pagans.

Again, look at the tree we are grafted into, which they were grafted out of...they were not believers.

If unbelievers are said to be in that tree, why is it impossible for them to be in this tree?

That is why we say it speaks of groups.

3. Your solution results in UNSAVED pagans grafted in - and still unsaved and NOT standing by their faith -- with SOME other Jews removed from the tree and ALSO unsaved and ALSO not believing.

No believing Jews were cut out of the tree.

Then in your model the instruction "HE is able to GRAFT them in AGAIN IF they do not continue" would result in now-BELIEVING Jews being grafted IN Among 100's of millions of PAGANS and idol worshippers as the glories benefit of BELIEVING.

They are of the tree, which at the time was Israel: they were the covenant people of God.

Gentiles are now included into the covenantal blessings of God, but they, like Israel, are not "Israel."

For example:
Hebrews 6:7-9:

7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

The entire earth receives blessing from God, are they all saved? The answer is no.

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The fruit (unbelievers produce fruit also) of each is apparent. And the end (of the unbeliever) is always the same: plucked up, cut off (out) and burned (eternal judgement).

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

I already know you will disagree with this, but I have to try...this parallels our current text:

Pauls states, though I am giving this warning (for the benefit of the entire audience), I am persuaded this will not be true in your case, because your fruit (and works) seem to indicate (and persuade me) that you are truly saved.

Nevertheless, the warning is given just the same, to an audience (in this passage) steeped and apparently stuck in Judaism, which in these last days, is said to be abrogated by the shed blood of Christ.

Your solution makes total mush out of the text - and the only benefit for that huge sacrifice is an attempt to spare OSAS.

Okay, if it is mush, lets look at other scripture that you build your doctrine on.

How can you not see that?

What did I miss?

I am trying to point out what you are missing (in my opinion).

By explicit contrast Paul states that ONLY those who "Stand by their faith" are actually IN the Olive Tree..

Okay, Bob, explain this: how is it that unbelievers were cut out of the tree in the first place?

If you can explain that, you might make a case for your position.

Much more -- but taking this one section at a time to make sure all are aware of just how clearly OSAS is failing these tests of scripture.

I agree with this, Bob. But lets not get "stuck" here.

(1cor 9 comes to mind "[ Paul is not just warning the GENTILE INDIVIDUALs who "stand alone by their faith" about the need to persevere firm unto the end)

This has a temporal aspect, and not eternal (concerning salvation, which scripture affirms is eternal).



If I say, Bob, Here is an eternal flashlight...would you question how long I am saying it will last.

I will say, Bob, I really don't have an eternal flashlight to give you, but, God has said..."Bob, these things have I written that you might know that you have eternal life...", not "you will have eternal life if you run the race well."

in Christ,

I believe you are, Bob. But I wish your joy could be full, and that being in Christ, you might rest from your works, trusting fully in Him for the welfare of your soul, both temporal, and eternal.
Bob

God bless, my friend.