Can OSAS Survive Romans 11?

[Darrell C]

Deleted by HP. The whole notion of the definition of the word 'perfect' in a particlar passage of Heb. in a particular sense is off topic and needs a thread of its own. To continue a discussion on this thread of that nature serves no useful purpose to this discussion.

Hi Heavenly Pilgrim,

I will start this thread for you in this section.

It was a loaded question.

Sorry.

I will post some verses for you, that you might see it is not a matter of a verse here and a verse there.

It wil be, if you look at it seriously, with all doctrinal bias put to the side, a blessing for you.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Anyone that can look at these texts and imagine that they are not talking about "you gentiles" that are "wild branches" that "ARE GRAFTED IN" to the very place FROM which SOME Jews fell -- is using something other than exegesis to study the Bible.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Points that cannot be denied.

1. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.
2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.
3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.
4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.
5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".



Questions that need to be answered successfully

But suppose that the "you only stand by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to also apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as some may have been suggesting.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

What say you?

Actually, yes (though this doesn't apply to the debate at hand): I believe it takes more faith to be an athiest than to believe in God).

In the context Paul is using this - he never argues "atheists stand by faith" - so I have to assume you understand that in fact the unbeliever does NOT stand by faith - just as paul argues above. So finding no solution for this for OSAS - you have gone to what you admit is an "off topic" concept for faith of an atheist.

The gentiles are grafted into the tree, which is the same tree that Israel was a part of...

Indeed - there are SOME Jews in that tree and there are SOME gentiles.

They "stand only by their faith" while in that olive tree.

When it is found that any individual is not standing by faith - the text of Romans 11 they are instantly "removed due to unbelief" individual - by individual by God.

The text also says of the individuals removed "God is able to graf them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief".

This again - is individual by individual since Paul says his efforts are to try and "save some of them" -- so he is speaking on an individual basis about "grafting them in AGAIN".

I agree to a certain extent: scripture does speak to both individuals and collective bodies.

The context, when uncertain, must be validated by the whole teaching of scripture.

While I understand your position, I disagree with it, because I do believe in the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice (and I am not demeaning your personal beliefs, and I'm sure you believe this as well).

This is why I repeatedly ask you to present other scripture...

It is clear that OSAS did not survive the detail above - and hence your desire to look at "other scripture". The fact that Romans 11 is explicit in identifying the "individual context" is beyond question.

Not all Jews were ever IN - not all gentiles are IN -- only those who stand "only by their FAITH" are IN -- according to the text.

Was all Israel believers? You will have to say yes

Nope.

Gentiles are grafted into the tree, which those who disbelieved were cut out of.

True of gentile BELIEVERs only - those who "STAND only by their faith".

Those who ARE PARTAKERS with believing Jews of the benefits of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Paul refers to INDIVIDUALS not an entire ethnic group or nation because HE admits to being one of the Jews and HE states HE is "trying to save SOME of them". Thus the INDIVIDUAL context for Romans 11 is actually IN the text itself.

2. Paul affirms that THOSE gentiles WHO ARE standing only by their faith WERE cut off from the wild tree AND GRAFTE IN. Paul never claims that all pagans all idolaters are now grafted into the olive tree of the Church of God as UNBELIEVING IDOL worshipping pagans.

3. Your solution results in UNSAVED pagans grafted in - and still unsaved and NOT standing by their faith -- with SOME other Jews removed from the tree and ALSO unsaved and ALSO not believing.

Then in your model the instruction "HE is able to GRAFT them in AGAIN IF they do not continue" would result in now-BELIEVING Jews being grafted IN Among 100's of millions of PAGANS and idol worshippers as the glories benefit of BELIEVING.

Your solution makes total mush out of the text - and the only benefit for that huge sacrifice is an attempt to spare OSAS.

How can you not see that?

Again, look at the tree we are grafted into, which they were grafted out of...they were not believers.

At the point that they leave - they are not believers.

If unbelievers are said to be in that tree, why is it impossible for them to be in this tree?

No unbelievers in the tree.

3. Your solution results in UNSAVED pagans grafted in - and still unsaved and NOT standing by their faith -- with SOME other Jews removed from the tree and ALSO unsaved and ALSO not believing.
No believing Jews were cut out of the tree.

Agreed. Only individual unbelievers were cut out.

Gentiles are now included into the covenantal blessings of God, but they, like Israel, are not "Israel."

No unbelieving gentile is removed from their own tree.
No unbelieving gentile is grafted in with believers.
No unbelieving Gentile inherits the promises for it is "the children of the promise" that inhert - those of faith.

Thus Paul says rightly says of the believers "you only stand by your faith"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

I seek to move on because I feel this has been discussed to the full.

While you claim victory on this passage, I feel it has been answered.

You cannot deny that those in the tree that were cut out were not in the tree;

nor that they were believers up until the point they were cut out.

They were in the tree because they were God's people (those that God had set apart for Himself).

God has at this time set apart gentiles to receive His blessings, and they are in the tree like as unbelieving Israel, who were in unbelief from the beginning (in the wilderness).

It was not until Jesus cut them out when gentile inclusion began.

Let's move on, and look at ALL of the passages you propose your doctrine on.

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell: God has at this time set apart gentiles to receive His blessings, and they are in the tree like as unbelieving Israel, who were in unbelief from the beginning (in the wilderness).

HP: You continue to beg the question. Where is there any indication God set aside Gentiles to receive His blessings??? Jesus stated that He ONLY came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel in the beginning of His ministry.

Where does it ever indicate that unbelieving Israel was “in unbelief from the beginning??”

There is absolutely no need to move on that I can see. You have left many notions unanswered and simply ‘assumed without proof.’

 

[DHK]

HP: You continue to beg the question. Where is there any indication God set aside Gentiles to receive His blessings???

Genesis 12:2-3 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, what about that verse? What does it say to you?

 

[DHK]

DHK, what about that verse? What does it say to you?

In Romans 11, Abraham is the root, made holy.
Your question:
"Where is there any indication God set aside Gentiles to receive His blessings???"

God promised Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel, that he would be a blessing to many nations. Many nations would look unto the Jews, or in time a descendent of the Jews (Christ).

Search the Scriptures. The OT prophets warned in book after book, passage after passage that he was going put Israel aside for their sins and choose another people instead to be a recipient of his blessings instead. The promise started with Abraham.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Search the Scriptures. The OT prophets warned in book after book, passage after passage that he was going put Israel aside for their sins and choose another people instead to be a recipient of his blessings instead. The promise started with Abraham.

HP: How ironic you would make such a comment in light of Romans 11. Scripture here clearly warns believers that the very same thing that happened to others can indeed happen to us as believers if we do despite the blessings we have been partakers of.

Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

What good does it do to search the Scriptures if one simply summarily dismisses all warnings contrary to the presupposition of OSAS?????

As BR has pointed out, are the partakers of his goodness in reality unbelievers? If so, will there continuance in their unbelief be the very means by which they remain in the vine?????

So much for searching the Scriptures for honest answers DHK.

BR, you need to be commended once again for the manner in which you have handled this passage. Your insight, logic, and manner in which you laid out the truth of this passage has been a help to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Eternity will prove you correct if no one listens to you any more than they listened to Jeremiah the prophet. Lead on. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: How ironic you would make such a comment in light of Romans 11. Scripture here clearly warns believers that the very same thing that happened to others can indeed happen to us as believers if we do despite the blessings we have been partakers of.

And I don't know how many people I can count on this board who have demonstrated the opposite view to be the correct view, but just like the doctrine of original sin, you believe what you want to believe and will not believe what others demonstrate to be true.

Others have demonstrated from the same passage of Scripture that as Paul was speaking of Israel (both believing and unbelieving) and yet one nation, so he was referring to the Gentiles in a much broader sense (both believing and unbelieving). There is a contrast here. It has been explained and pointed out. I can't do much more than what others have already done. Let the blind lead the blind. What more can I say.

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 11, Abraham is the root, made holy.

.

1. Abraham is not mentioned in Romans 11 at all.
2. Abraham is never used outside of the "family" illustration in Romans - because the connection to Abraham is always -- and only an appeal to "family inheritance" - a common family inheritance applicable to both Jew and Gentile when we speak of inheriting the promises of eternal life.

3. In Romans 2 Abraham is NOT the father of the "faithless" but rather the faithFUL - even among the Gentiles.

4. In John 15 and Romans 11 it is CHRIST the is always the source of living given power to the branches. Abraham is never given as the source of life ot the branches - never in all of scripture -- no not even once.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I seek to move on because I feel this has been discussed to the full.

While you claim victory on this passage, I feel it has been answered.

You cannot deny that those in the tree that were cut out were not in the tree;

Claiming that someone is "cut out of the tree" that was "never in the tree to start with" is nonsensical at best.

You cannot fall from a position you never had.

You cannot be "grafted in again" into a position you never had.

Paul argues in Romans 11 that the effort is individual "to try and save SOME of them".

As Paul points out the fact that Timothy was saved BEFORE he became a Christian - the same holds for David and Samuel and Zacharias and others.

It is not too difficult to argue the case that saved Jews -- the people of God - "stumbled" at the stumbling block of Christ.

They were in the tree because they were God's people (those that God had set apart for Himself).

God has at this time set apart gentiles to receive His blessings, and they are in the tree like as unbelieving Israel, who were in unbelief from the beginning (in the wilderness).

If the pagan world (then and now) is NOT an example of "devoted to unbelief" then WHAT IS??? What does the non-Christian Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist world have to DO to "fall" from their exalted position in your thinking?

What pagans do you imagine to be reading Romans 11 and saying "oh my we are indeed fortunate - let us not turn from our devotion to our own gods the way that Israel turned from their own Messiah".???

What pagans do we address today saying "you stand only by your faith - be sure and make no changes lest you be removed".

The efforts to save OSAS in the case of Romans 11 - make total mush out of the text itself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

1. Abraham is not mentioned in Romans 11 at all.

When someone is described his name does not have to be mentioned. In fact in that particular verse no one's name is mentioned. So you don't have a valid argument. What it does say is

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:16 If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. (WEB)

The first fruit of the nation was Abraham, the father of the nation. He was 'the first one." God "set him apart," the definition of "holy." The two words are the same. He is the root. The nation started with him. From him, the root, came the entire nation of Israel. Christ was a Jew also. Paul is looking at this entire picture at a chronological context. Otherwise the picture does not make sense. A tree grows through time. Abraham lived 2000 B.C. Christ came 2000 years later. It was only then that the Gentiles were grafted in. One must look at chronologically as the tree gives a picture of time--from the time of Abraham until now.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: 1. Abraham is not mentioned in Romans 11 at all.

HP: Lets see. That would make make the comment by DHK of of those 'red herrings' he always talks about, would it not?

The root would clearly appear to represent a foundation, and the last time I checked our foundation as Christians is laid in Christ, not Abraham. Now there are some that do claim Abraham as their foundation as I recall......

 

[DHK]

HP: Lets see. That would make make the comment by DHK of of those 'red herrings' he always talks about, would it not?

The root would clearly appear to represent a foundation, and the last time I checked our foundation as Christians is laid in Christ, not Abraham. Now there are some that do claim Abraham as their foundation as I recall......

Root and foundation are not the same thing. I had a small tree growing out of the foundation of my driveway. It had to be removed of course. You are speaking of two different things.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I had a small tree growing out of the foundation of my driveway.

HP: Would that be considered yet another red herring? I do not recall any 'driveways' being mentioned in the text either. Did I miss something?

How many driveways have foundations anyway????

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Speaking of a "Root," here is one not coming out of the foundations of DHK's driveway...


Isa 11:10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a 'ROOT' of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

 

[DHK]

Speaking of a "Root," here is one not coming out of the foundations of DHK's driveway...


Isa 11:10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a 'ROOT' of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

What kind of root was it that Isaiah was speaking of? Pear tree? Spruce tree? Grape vine? What kind? Does it tell you?

But in Romans 11 it is a parable. It paints a picture of an "olive tree."
And you want to take this root of this olive tree and equate it to Christ?
Is Christ the root of an olive tree???
You don't get the picture do you?
Paul paints a picture. It is chronological in nature. But you can't see that.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Isa 11:10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a 'ROOT' of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

DHK: What kind of root was it that Isaiah was speaking of? Pear tree? Spruce tree? Grape vine? What kind? Does it tell you?

HP: We shall all stand before that Root of Jesse prophesized by the prophet Isaiah and give an account for every idle word spoken and every deed done in the flesh. I can assure you that He is no pear tree, spruce tree or grape vine.

I can hardly believe you would play so ignorant.
Obviously there is no amount of willlful ignorance that one might not stoop to if it takes such to defend ones presupposition.

 

[DHK]

Isa 11:10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a 'ROOT' of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.




HP: We shall all stand before that Root of Jesse prophesized by the prophet Isaiah and give an account for every idle word spoken and every deed done in the flesh. I can assure you that He is no pear tree, spruce tree or grape vine.

I can hardly believe you would play so ignorant.
Obviously there is no amount of willlful ignorance that one might not stoop to if it takes such to defend ones presupposition.

Your condescension and arrogance is not needed.
The fact is that the two pictures are entirely different and you refuse to acknowledge it. The word "root" is used 43 times in the Bible. Would you like to do a study and see if all 43 times "root" refers to Christ. This is the ploy of cults: one word-one definition. But you are taking it one step further. One word-one interpretation, and that is ludicrous. It goes beyond any bounds of hermeneutics.