Priesthood of Believer

[FR7 Baptist]

How is that?

I voted in business meetings from when I was 14.

 

[Revmitchell]

I voted in business meetings from when I was 14.

That would not meet the definition of hypocrite.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

That would not meet the definition of hypocrite.

I'd still feel bad about it. Besides, it has never caused any issues at my church.

 

[Marcia]

The membership thing seems wrong to me. I joined my church when I was 14 and have voted in business meetings since, as all members have the right to vote on church matters according to the bylaws.

So can anyone be a member of your church no matter what age? Can 5 year olds be members? 10 year olds? If so, can they vote? There must be an age cut-off, right? If not, that makes no sense to me.

I have to point out that just because your church allows 14 yr. olds (and maybe younger) to vote, that does not make it necessarily a good thing.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

So can anyone be a member of your church no matter what age? Can 5 year olds be members? 10 year olds? If so, can they vote? There must be an age cut-off, right? If not, that makes no sense to me.

All baptized, non-heretical believers can join my church.

I have to point out that just because your church allows 14 yr. olds (and maybe younger) to vote, that does not make it necessarily a good thing.

I never said it did. Under the bylaws of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Inc. all members can vote.

 

[Marcia]

All baptized, non-heretical believers can join my church.



I never said it did. Under the bylaws of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Inc. all members can vote.

Wow. So this means theoretically, a 5 year old can vote!

I just do not think that anyone under 18 has the maturity and experience to vote on church business. Do they know what a business plan is at age 5, 7, 9? Do they understand the implications of some difficult issues that may come up? Churches often have to vote on sensitive issues, and on issues that directly affect people's lives. People under 18, and especially younger than that, like pre-teen ages, should not be in a position to make those decisions.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Wow. So this means theoretically, a 5 year old can vote!

In theory. However, I don't know many five year olds who can make a profession of faith in Christ and request baptism.

I just do not think that anyone under 18 has the maturity and experience to vote on church business. Do they know what a business plan is at age 5, 7, 9? Do they understand the implications of some difficult issues that may come up? Churches often have to vote on sensitive issues, and on issues that directly affect people's lives. People under 18, and especially younger than that, like pre-teen ages, should not be in a position to make those decisions.

Well my church's bylaws aren't structured like yours. From the time I joined the church, I had a responsibility to be a good steward and come to a well-informed decision on church matters.

 

[Onlybygrace]

Ok hank. I get what you are saying but is it not a mute point anyway since I am not aware, and I stand to be corrected that voting itself is a sanctioned practice in scripture. I know that the early church did cast lots to make decisions but I don't see any scripture supporting the fact that we should remanifest that in the present day church through the practice of voting or even any scripture that endorses what they did and then commands us to do likewise. Now I know a lot of folks will say well then how are we supposed to make decisions, which is a seperate issue all together but we should not do just be cause it presents a pragmatically viable solution to a practical problem.
So I would like to reiterate my earlier point and say that if you are going to set a precedent of excluding children on the basis of their age is that not prejudicial unless you take the principle to its logical conclusion and exclude adults who are immature spiritually, or carnal or have not attended church regularly,etc.

 

[menageriekeeper]

In thinking about this over the past few days as I noticed it, I've decided that this is not a priesthood of the believer issue at all.

Children are represented by their parents because they are children and have the understanding of children. Same reasons we don't let children do all sorts of things apply here.

However, as I recall, when I was a teenager there were times when our church allowed our participation in certain votes. It was a time of us learning how the congregation runs the church and we were told specifically when our vote counted. Of course we were all "good" children who voted the way our elders wanted us to anyhow so it was a moot point.

I don't believe young people should be ignored, but children below the age of 13 probably don't have the facilities to make sound decisions.

 

[CF1]

Here is some scripture to figure out how to apply to this situation:

______________________________


1 Timothy 3 (New American Standard Bible)

Overseers and Deacons

1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity

5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.

11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.

12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

______________________________

Be realistic, having children vote might help them feel ownership in the church at some point, perhaps for simple decisions of the church family, but they don't have the maturity to handle decisions in the manner described above.

I believe CF1 is appealing to the spirit of the law in the absence of the letter of the law concerning children and their rights in the local church.

Perhaps CF1 is alluding to the fact that there are very strict and narrow guidelines in Scripture concerning leaders, their maturity, stability, spirituality, etc... apart from the fact that everyone who is redeemed is a NT priest.

It would seem therefore that God (being a very consistent type of person) would require somewhat similar guidelines (howbeit perhaps not so confining) of "decision makers" who guide the church.

Even the world has enough sense to not allow children to drive a car, vote in elections, pilot a 747 airliner, etc.

How much more to allow them to guide the church which has an eternal consequence?

Personally, and IMO, children should not be allowed to vote no matter their "spirituality" and standing as NT priests just as the offices of leadership (deacon, pastor) have additonal requirements above and beyond the NT priesthood.

If it were left up to me, the right to vote on local church matters would require that:

One be a baptised believer, a member by choice/will in attendance and good standing at that local church for at least a year and over 18 years of age.

Even at that, these requirements leave plenty of room for mischief.


HankD

Yes HankD. This is what I meant.

The OP said the assignment was to search for scripture on the matter.

Since the Bible does not provide guidance for such a question on should children vote, or should anyone vote, we turn to the closest related scriptures we can find on how to do decision making in the church.

It seems like having children vote on special issues that are non-controversial, to get them to own being part of the decision making process might make sense.

However members who want children to vote seem more likely to do so to promote their own agenda in an underhanded way rather than seeking a fair representation of the church body.

 

[Onlybygrace]

CF1 you mention fair representation, what do you define as fair representation in a church context?

 

[HankD]

Ok hank. I get what you are saying but is it not a mute point anyway since I am not aware, and I stand to be corrected that voting itself is a sanctioned practice in scripture. I know that the early church did cast lots to make decisions but I don't see any scripture supporting the fact that we should remanifest that in the present day church through the practice of voting or even any scripture that endorses what they did and then commands us to do likewise. Now I know a lot of folks will say well then how are we supposed to make decisions, which is a seperate issue all together but we should not do just be cause it presents a pragmatically viable solution to a practical problem.
So I would like to reiterate my earlier point and say that if you are going to set a precedent of excluding children on the basis of their age is that not prejudicial unless you take the principle to its logical conclusion and exclude adults who are immature spiritually, or carnal or have not attended church regularly,etc.

Thanks for the response Onlybygrace.

I agree with you regarding the immature Christian and so far as we can tell from the Scripture the carnal Christian (as the Corinthian Christians) and/or the "novice" have a distorted world view and should be allowed leadership very cautiously (or not at all) as they seem to be bent more towards the world mind than the mind of Christ and we can see the trouble they (Corinthians) got themselves into.

Personally and for instance, I have been to church business meetings which children were not even allowed to attend as it concerned matters of life style in the congregation of a sensitive nature.

Some adults but generally all children lack objectivity and that is why I said in my voting criteria (FWIW) that a "voter" must be a baptised believer, an official member by choice, in attendance at the local church for at least a year, over 18 and in good standing with the congregation and holding a good testimony and life style before God (as far as we can discern).

How to find such people and the enforcement of the criteria is another story.

Since the Scripture seems quiet concerning the "voting" procedure then God apparently has left this decision and process up to the autonomous local church.

Some believe that "casting lots" was the same as modernly casting a ballot. For instance: Each apostle wrote a name on a piece of paper and Matthias name was in the majority so it was not a "roll of the dice".
I believe it was something like what we do today in an election which BTW excludes children though they may be American citizens

Do we do less that the world?

That's another debate however.


HankD

 

[CF1]

CF1 you mention fair representation, what do you define as fair representation in a church context?

I wasn't thinking too deeply about it. Just something that reflects what everyone is thinking on the whole.

I guess what you might be implying is that some people dominate the conversation and influence in an unfair way too often so an ideal of fair representation fails to be achieved more often than we wish.

But we should still try to get fair representation even though it is not easy.

 

[Onlybygrace]

CF1 I agree with what you are saying. I think church goverment tends to be a thorny issue on the whole, especially it remains so non de script in scripture and many systems of decision-making are more pragmatic than biblical. I wonder why God would not give us crystal clear intructions on something so vital as to how to make decisions in the local assembly? Or maybe His instructions are explicit but we are just ignoring them. Since the church was basically finding its feet in the book of Acts they did what seemed right and sensible but does this provide us with an automatic endorsement to adopt their practices as normative church policy and practice for the local assembly?