The Catholic "Mary" to take greater role in salvation

[Emily25069]

Lori

Im with the baptists on this one.

It is idolotry to pray to anyone who is not in the Godhead.

And praying would be talking through the air to someone I cannot see. We have no business praying to anyone but God.

God did not give us the okay on this, but he did give several warnings on idolotry. I will stay as far away from idolotry as possible.

 

[Trotter]

Am I the only one shaking their head in utter disbelief at this hogwash? Honestly, I am completely flabbergasted by the "reasoning" put forth as to why ANYONE would pray to dead people. Yes, DEAD PEOPLE. Everyone who has died in faith is without their eternal bodies even though they are with Christ... they are STILL DEAD. Get it, got it, good.

We are told to pray for one another, and to ask others to pray for us. No where does Paul mention asking the dead to pray. Paul wrote that man is appointed to die once and then he faces judgment, not goes into a prayer ministry. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, where there is no need for prayer as each will be able to talk face to face with the Lord.

And what is all the bull hockey about people being declared "saints" anyway? Every who believes is a saint (according to the bible), but Catholicism has to one-up that and declare people to be super saints. Bull feathers! No one has any superior footing before God. We may earn crowns in heaven while we are here on earth, but these will only be used to cast at the feet of Jesus Christ (not Mary). Our works and righteousness is less than nothing, and yet the Catholic Church decides that some are super special and declares them to be "saints" who you can pray to and ask them to whisper in Jesus' ear for ya. Yeah... and people eat this malarkey up?

If I were going to pray to a dead person, I would pray to someone who knew me and loved me dearly, like my dad. But I would never pray to my dead father, nor would I even entertain the thought of asking him to intercede for me. Why? BECAUSE HE IS DEAD! He is with Christ now, but he is not a part of the Godhead. Mary is not a part of the Godhead, and all the dead people the RCC (and whatever flavor of the same you want to add into the mix that prays to dead people) want to declare as "saints" aren't going to hear you or help you.

At least in bible days people fashioned gold, silver, and wood for their idols to pray to and ask favors from. Hmmm... looking at it, that hasn't changed as you can buy figurines of any saint you want, or paintings, or whatever. I guess the more things change the more they stay the same then.

 

[Melanie]

I really do NOT understand the dead people thing. When we die, our body dies and falls into corruption, but the soul is immortal so it cannot be dead...so how does this work from the DEAD,DEAD,DEAD perspective?

 

[BobRyan]

I really do NOT understand the dead people thing. When we die, our body dies and falls into corruption, but the soul is immortal so it cannot be dead...so how does this work from the DEAD,DEAD,DEAD perspective?

Paul says that the proper term for someone who has died and is saved is - "The DEAD in Christ" 1Thess 4.

Jesus speaks of those who have died in Matt 22 as "the DEAD".

In John 11 Christ said "Lazarus IS DEAD"

So when you say you do not understand "dead people" -- what exactly are you saying? The bible writers "got it wrong"??

There is NO TEXT in all of scripture that says "our soul is immortal"
There is NO TEXT in all of scripture that says "mankind has an immortal soul"

There IS one text that says "GOD ALONE possess IMMORTALITY" 1Tim 6:15-16

There are at least TWO texts that talk about the saints obtaining immortality at the resurrection - one of those texts is in 1Cor 15 where we are told "this MORTAL will PUT ON immortality".

There is ONE text that says that our soul survives the first death - in Matt 10 - but as Paul points out in 1Thess 4 and as Christ points out in John 11 - the soul survives of mankind survives the first death in a dormant state. Thus Christ also teaches in John 11 "our FRIEND Lazarus SLEEPS"

Given the DORMANT state of man in death it is no wonder that Christ AFFIRMS in Matt 22 "God is NOT the God of the dead".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[lori4dogs]

Paul says that the proper term for someone who has died and is saved is - "The DEAD in Christ" 1Thess 4.

Jesus speaks of those who have died in Matt 22 as "the DEAD".

In John 11 Christ said "Lazarus IS DEAD"

So when you say you do not understand "dead people" -- what exactly are you saying? The bible writers "got it wrong"??

There is NO TEXT in all of scripture that says "our soul is immortal"
There is NO TEXT in all of scripture that says "mankind has an immortal soul"

There IS one text that says "GOD ALONE possess IMMORTALITY" 1Tim 6:15-16

There are at least TWO texts that talk about the saints obtaining immortality at the resurrection - one of those texts is in 1Cor 15 where we are told "this MORTAL will PUT ON immortality".

There is ONE text that says that our soul survives the first death - in Matt 10 - but as Paul points out in 1Thess 4 and as Christ points out in John 11 - the soul survives of mankind survives the first death in a dormant state. Thus Christ also teaches in John 11 "our FRIEND Lazarus SLEEPS"

Given the DORMANT state of man in death it is no wonder that Christ AFFIRMS in Matt 22 "God is NOT the God of the dead".

in Christ,

Bob

SDA Soul Sleep

 

[lori4dogs]

Lori

Im with the baptists on this one.

It is idolotry to pray to anyone who is not in the Godhead.

And praying would be talking through the air to someone I cannot see. We have no business praying to anyone but God.

God did not give us the okay on this, but he did give several warnings on idolotry. I will stay as far away from idolotry as possible.

It is idolatry to worship anything or anyone other than God. I haven't seen anyone give me a biblical reference that says that prayer=worship.

I understand your position though.

 

[lori4dogs]

MT 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (St. Luke's Gospel 20:38 adds "for to him all are alive" or "for all live unto him")

Now if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then how can Catholics be praying to dead people? Even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each experienced a physical death Jesus said they are indeed alive ("for to him all [in heaven] are alive") ! Let us further examine the words of Jesus on the matter:

JN 11:17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

JN 11:21 "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."

JN 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

JN 11:24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Do Fundamentalist Baptists believe this? Apparently not since they want to make the argument that we Catholics pray to dead people!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Romish church never ceases to amaze....





May God have mercy, and continue to pull His people out of this hellish organisation.

http://christiannewswire.com/news/1280812830.html

Redemptoris Mater is a horrible move for the Catholic Church. There should be no equality with regard to redemption. And that alone makes it necissary to reconsider Mary's role with in the Catholic Church. Its tough enough to work around Mater Dei and perpetuum mobile and Mediatrix. But really Redemptoris Mater?

 

[lori4dogs]

Lori

Im with the baptists on this one.

It is idolotry to pray to anyone who is not in the Godhead.

And praying would be talking through the air to someone I cannot see. We have no business praying to anyone but God.

God did not give us the okay on this, but he did give several warnings on idolotry. I will stay as far away from idolotry as possible.

This is in an article taken from About.com:

The Difference Between Prayer and Worship

"Many non-Catholic Christians believe that it is wrong to pray to the saints, claiming that our prayers should be directed to God alone. Some Catholics, responding to this criticism, have argued that we do not pray to the saints but with them.

Both groups, however, are confusing prayer with worship. True worship (as opposed to veneration or honor) does indeed belong to God alone, and we should never worship man or any other creature as we worship God. But while worship may take the form of prayer, as in the Mass and other liturgies of the Church, not all prayer is worship. When we pray to the saints, we’re simply asking them to help us, by praying to God on our behalf, or thanking them for having already done so."

 

[BobRyan]

Not only is it worshiping someone other than God, but it is akin to consulting a familiar spirit and communing with the dead."

"
We do neither commune 'with the dead', nor do we worship the LIVING saints in heaven.

Well not quite - if Fr Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest had any understanding of Catholic doctrine on this point.

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”


Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship[/b] with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!

They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

 

[lori4dogs]

Redemptoris Mater is a horrible move for the Catholic Church. There should be no equality with regard to redemption. And that alone makes it necissary to reconsider Mary's role with in the Catholic Church. Its tough enough to work around Mater Dei and perpetuum mobile and Mediatrix. But really Redemptoris Mater?

For those who have not read it (I know you have Thinkingstuff) I have a link to the Encyclical here:

http://www.cin.org/jp2ency/jp2mot.html

 

[BobRyan]

MT 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Christ here PROVES the resurrection by arguing that the only solution for the fact that God claimed to be the "God of Abraham" while speaking to Moses - a long time after Abraham had died - is "THE RESURRECTION" which is Why Christ says "But REGARDING the Resurrection" --

He argues that the ONLY way God's statement to Moses - about Abraham - CAN BE true is that there MUSt be a future resurrection - for as Rom 4:17 says "God sees those things that ARE NOT as though they are"

Of course some have supposed "Another solution" one that would destroy the force of Christ's argument for the need of resurrection to solve the problem. A supposed solution where spirits of the dead mutter and peep about in heaven which is one that the Sadducees would not have so quickly leaped on to for it would destroy the entire "then there MUST be a future resurrection" argument.

Acts 23:
6But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"
7As he said this, there occurred a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.
8For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

In Matt 22 Christ his opponents in an airtight logical argument from which according to Matt 22 they could not escape because they already AGREED that God spoke to Moses about Abraham and AGREED that God is "not the God of the dead" -- thus the "RESURRECTION" was the only solution for the problem Christ gave them.

(St. Luke's Gospel 20:38 adds "for to him all are alive" or "for all live unto him")

Indeed as Rom 4:17 states




Rom4 - 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;NKJV

Now if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then how can Catholics be praying to dead people?

because the "point" in Matt 22 was to prove the resurrection by virtue of the undeniable fact that God is not the God of Abraham while he is dead - only while he is resurrected.

So that the words spoken to Moses were in the Rom 4:17 case of calling those things that ARE NOT as "THOUGH they were". Such an airtight case that in Matt 22 even the Pharisees marveled that the Sadducees' argument had been silenced.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

First of all let me say Cudos to Lori for taking a "sola scriptura" approach to finding a solution and to giving details from scripture and not appealing to ad hominem.

That is the Christian spirit in which all debates should be conducted.

Let us further examine the words of Jesus on the matter:

JN 11:17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

JN 11:21 "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."


JN 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

JN 11:24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Certainly this is a good point - Martha well knew that her brother had died.

She also knew the hope of the saints which is that her brother WOULD rise again just as Jesus said - on the last day.

But what she did not know is that her brother WOULD RISE that very DAY! For Jesus was THERE - and HE IS the Resurrection.

But we have missed a KEY part of the story in John 11 by starting so late in the text.

11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,
15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.''

1. Here we see that the PERSON Lazarus was declared to be in a dormant state of sleep - needing to be awakened.

2. Christ declared that this was the state of Lazarus in DEATH.

3. Christ declared his intent to awaken Lazarus.

4. Nobody was praying TO Lazarus in John 11 - expecting that while alseep he could "hear" some request or affirmation.

JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Rom4 - 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;NKJV

Thus Paul is correct to refer to dead saints as "The DEAD in Christ".

And also Christ is taking into account the future resurrection when He points to HIMSELF as BEING the resurrection.

in Christ,

Bob