Poll: For whom did Christ die?

[menageriekeeper]

Alright! Time OUT!

Originally Posted by olegig
Please feel free to also highlight 'already' because every human on the face of the earth is 'already' condemned as soon as they realize their sin is against God.
Everyone is born 'in Adam' and the only way out is to get 'in Christ'.

John 5:24 (King James Version)

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The verse has this order:
heareth, believeth, everlasting life, no condemnation, death unto life.

The only way to get election into the verse is to read it into the verse.

Well, the verse is not in a logical order format, but I'll play along for a minute. According your view, you have someone in possession of everlasting life before being free from condemnation and before being born again. That's nutty. An unregenerate in possession of everlasting life? Come on.

Who are you trying to convince with this arguement? Yourself or us. Pay attention this is how it is translated across several versions. You wanna explain to me just how they all got it in an illogical order, or are you gonna tell us that God got it wrong?

ESV:
Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

ASV:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

NIV:
John 5:24 Itell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned: he has crossed over from death to life.

Sorry, this verse clearly shows eternal life first, freedom from condemnation second. Nothing "nutty" about it, unless you are insulting God instead of olegig or Winman. And the born again thing, well it happened simultaneously with the decision to believe. But the freedom from condemnation thing? Its speaks of a future condemnation (eternity spent in hell) and not the condemnation we suffer from currently (death of the physical body) Stands to reason that eternal life precedes, or rather bypasses, condemnation.

Time in, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[RAdam]

So what you are saying is the new birth is synomous with belief, yet it comes last in the logical order you place upon the verse. That doesn't work. Either that verse is in a logical order or it is not. Either belief comes first, then everlasting life, then freedom from condemnation, then the new birth or there is no order presented in this verse but rather a simple statement of fact.

As far as freedom from condemnation, yes that condemnation is eternal, but we are freed from it now. Notice what Paul says in Romans 8:1 - there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Paul did not say there would be no condemnation, he said there presently was no condemnation. The people in Christ, who are seen by their belief of Him, are currently free from condemnation.

Now, the following verse in John 5 proves my main point. Jesus there says, "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." Jesus is hear speaking of the new birth. Notice He did not say the dead would hear the word of the Son of God, as spoken about in verse 24. He said the voice of the Son of God. Those that hear this voice live, they are born again. Belief doesn't bring new birth, the voice of the Son of God brings new birth, after which belief shows you have everlasting, that you have been born again already.

Consider the verb tenses in the verse, and all the translations you listed agree. Heareth = present tense verb. Believeth = present tense verb. Hath = present possession. The present hearer and believer presently possesses everlasting life. The belief is the proof of having the everlasting life, not that which gained it. If that were so Jesus would say, "he that believed received everlasting life."

Consider this text from Ephesians 1. Paul says in 19 that we "believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in heavendly places." That is, you believe because God worked in you with a mighty power, the same power that raised up Christ, so that you would believe.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Well, the verse is not in a logical order format, but I'll play along for a minute. According your view, you have someone in possession of everlasting life before being free from condemnation and before being born again. That's nutty. An unregenerate in possession of everlasting life? Come on.

Every elect child of God is born unregenerate because of Adam's nature in them.
However, God did not elect them after they were regenerated, and Christ did not die for them to give them eternal life only after they are out of Adam's nature.
So an unregenerate, provided he is one of God's elect children and therefore among those for whom Christ ALREADY OBTAINED eternal redemption IS in possession of eternal life while unregenerated.
The valley of bones had DEAD bones in it before the Spirit breathed life into them and they formed sinews and lived.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Every elect child of God is born unregenerate because of Adam's nature in them.
However, God did not elect them after they were regenerated, and Christ did not die for them to give them eternal life only after they are out of Adam's nature.
So an unregenerate, provided he is one of God's elect children and therefore among those for whom Christ ALREADY OBTAINED eternal redemption IS in possession of eternal life while unregenerated.
The valley of bones had DEAD bones in it before the Spirit breathed life into them and they formed sinews and lived.

Folks, I think I may have mixed up everlasting life and redemption.
They may not be the same.
My apologies.

p.s. been having my "senior moments" quite frequently these days. lol.

 

[Winman]

So what you are saying is the new birth is synomous with belief, yet it comes last in the logical order you place upon the verse. That doesn't work. Either that verse is in a logical order or it is not. Either belief comes first, then everlasting life, then freedom from condemnation, then the new birth or there is no order presented in this verse but rather a simple statement of fact.

As far as freedom from condemnation, yes that condemnation is eternal, but we are freed from it now. Notice what Paul says in Romans 8:1 - there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Paul did not say there would be no condemnation, he said there presently was no condemnation. The people in Christ, who are seen by their belief of Him, are currently free from condemnation.

Now, the following verse in John 5 proves my main point. Jesus there says, "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." Jesus is hear speaking of the new birth. Notice He did not say the dead would hear the word of the Son of God, as spoken about in verse 24. He said the voice of the Son of God. Those that hear this voice live, they are born again. Belief doesn't bring new birth, the voice of the Son of God brings new birth, after which belief shows you have everlasting, that you have been born again already.

Consider the verb tenses in the verse, and all the translations you listed agree. Heareth = present tense verb. Believeth = present tense verb. Hath = present possession. The present hearer and believer presently possesses everlasting life. The belief is the proof of having the everlasting life, not that which gained it. If that were so Jesus would say, "he that believed received everlasting life."

Consider this text from Ephesians 1. Paul says in 19 that we "believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in heavendly places." That is, you believe because God worked in you with a mighty power, the same power that raised up Christ, so that you would believe.

Pure Calvinist nonsense. John 5:25 says the spiritually dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live. When it says "they that hear" it means those who not just hear the audible word of God, but those who intently listen to and believe. Just hearing Jesus's words will not save you, you must believe them. To those who believe God's word he gives life.

Even Spurgeon shows that the unregenerate man must receive and believe God's word.

Yet while Christ speaks to the dead, power is communicated to them that they may have it and use it, call it their own, and exercise it. “The dead
shall hear,” and, do notice it, “They that hear shall live.” You must not imagine that man is passive in the matter. What does it say, “Draw us,” and we will be drawn? No, but “Draw us, and we will run after thee.” There comes an activity. I have heard some speak of faith, and repentance as the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Most truly, so they are, but why speak ye of these gifts as though the sinner had nothing to do to repent and to believe? Always recollect that it is you who must repent and believe. The Holy Ghost will not repent for you. What should he repent about? He never did wrong. And the Holy Ghost will not believe for you. What should he believe for? He is God himself. The fact is, that the apostle has expressed it exactly, when he says, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that worketh in you, to will and to do of his own good pleasure.” Christ gives the voice, but the man hears. There is a something done; there is a something to be received. It is no great act to hear a sound when it is made; it is no great act to receive mercy when it is presented; yet the hearing is a miracle, for the dead hear; and the receiving by faith is a miracle, for none do this but those to whom it is given; yet it is done by man. Faith and repentance are gifts of God: the voice that saves is the voice of Christ, but the point of personal salvation is reached when the man actively hears and receives the truth.

Spurgeon often declared himself to be a Calvinist, but he can be found numerous times to contradict it as he does here. He says man is not passive in salvation but plays an active role. He says the spiritually dead can hear and respond to the voice of God and must do so to be saved. He says the dead hear, this contradicts Calvinism that says a man must be regenerated, made alive to be enabled to hear. Calvinism teaches the spiritually dead are unable to even want to listen to God's word.

And you twist Ephesians 1:19 as well.

Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

This speaks of the exceeding greatness of God's power toward those "who believe". So you must believe before you receive God's power.

Jesus has the power to give life to whom he will, but he only gives it to those who believe.

for none do this but those to whom it is given

This is circular reasoning on Spurgeon's part, of course you have to hear or receive the word of God to believe it, but this does not mean the word was not given also to them that refused to believe it. This is what Paul says in Romans.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You can't possibly believe on Jesus if you have never heard of him.

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

But as you see, unbelievers also heard the word of God, it was not held back from them, they simply refused to believe it. This agrees with Jesus's words in John 5:25, it is not those spiritually dead that audibly hear God's word that live, but those who sincerely listen to it and believe it.

 

[AnotherBaptist]

For whom did Christ die?

For all human beings, including those predestined to be Saved. :smilewinkgrin: