Faith alone beyond the text?

[Thinkingstuff]

This is not a Baptist view.

What is not a baptist view? That Faith Alone can be determined from the text which incorporates the leading of the Holy Spirit, and the faculties of the human mind, and the incorporation of several passages to discover the doctrine of faith alone. Or that the text states "faith alone" explicitly?

Also is it an accurate evaluation? What do the scriptures say explicitly?

 

[Revmitchell]

Things like the Trinity are clearly defined. It is not necessary to say "this is the Trinity" in order for it to be clearly defined or understood explicity. Such is an absurd standard. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all clearly spoken of.

Faith alone is also clearly defined. It is never beyond the text. Poor use of words and a very odd standard which holds no reality.I suggest you do a word study on faith. Sometimes your silliness astounds me.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Things like the Trinity are clearly defined. It is not necessary to say "this is the Trinity" in order for it to be clearly defined or understood explicity. Such is an absurd standard. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all clearly spoken of.

Faith alone is also clearly defined. It is never beyond the text. Poor use of words and a very odd standard which holds no reality.I suggest you do a word study on faith. Sometimes your silliness astounds me.

Just because God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are mentioned in scripture does not mean there is clear indication how it all works together. Also textual problems arise

So, there’s one textual variant in the Gospel of Mark where Jesus got angry at a leper who wanted to be
healed. In another variant in the same passage, it says that Jesus loved him. Is there a difference
between loving him and getting angry? I say there’s a difference. Did Jesus feel anxiety going to His cross
in the Gospel of Luke, or did He not? That’s a big difference. Is Jesus ever called “the Unique God” in the
New Testament? It depends which manuscript you read and it’s a big difference. Is the doctrine of the
Trinity explicitly taught in the New Testament? It depends which manuscript you read, and it’s a big
difference.

Does scripture say anywhere that Jesus is Homoosious with the Father and the Spirit? Its not an absurd standard when you say you are only scriptures alone. Well, how do we get to the point where we define substance with the Father and the Spirit. We find allusions but clearly defined? Which text will we use? and all the rest.

Also I may agree with you regarding faith based on how you believe scriptures define that faith. If for instance faith does not indicate action on belief I would disagree with you based on the select passages I mention above in a previous post when looking at it in more detail.

Oh, and thank you for the compliment.

 

[Marcia]

I honestly think faith can only be understood from the context of how I put it. Lets look at what the scriptures say. Here are the common verses that are always used with a "Faith Alone" theology.

Interesting to note Luther added "alone" to this passage. However, if we take Jesus view of law in Matthew's gospel; that maintaining a life based on underlying principle rather than by meticulous adherence to the particulars of the law we can understand this passage to say:"Man is justified by faith (which in my post above is only expressed by what you do based on what you believe) ... apart from the meticulous observance of the particulars of the law". So, in other words: putting up a Mezuzah on the door way to your house will not justify you but faith that leads you to live principally does. The next commonly used verses follow suite with the same understanding. in this particular verse It shows that we cannot earn our way into grace but that it is a free gift. Yet in the context of this passage I understand it to mean That we are saved to do the will of the father not just walking around believing something with out acting on it. Or good works Now you said I should adhere to the Full bible and what it says so in order to understand these passages in context lets look at what Jesus has to say and further the apostles : So in a whole bible context faith justifys but only if faith is one that acts. This is the Context which James speaks of.

I never denied that we are saved to do good works and do them. What I maintained was that salvation is by faith alone.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I never denied that we are saved to do good works and do them. What I maintained was that salvation is by faith alone.

I don't disagree that salvation is by faith alone as long as that faith includes acting on belief. My contention is that scripture may alude to salvation being by faith alone but it isn't specified in those terms which means that to make that determination you must use resources beyond text. Such as your mind, the leading of the Holy Spirit (Ghost if your pentecostal), etc.... salvation by faith is derived at not explicit in the text.

 

[Peggy]

Saving faith is never alone. It is always accompanied by love for God and neighbor and good deeds done out of that love.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[lori4dogs]

Saving faith is never alone. It is always accompanied by love for God and neighbor and good deeds done out of that love.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

That is what the Catholic Church teaches as well.

 

[DHK]

That is what the Catholic Church teaches as well.

The Catholic Church teaches that works, not simply faith saves.
It teaches that you must be born again, and then defines born again as baptism. Baptism is a work. If you don't have the work of baptism you cannot be saved. The RCC has a works-based salvation, not a salvation based on grace.
Think of this verse.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is either grace or works; it cannot be both.

 

[lori4dogs]

The Catholic Church teaches that works, not simply faith saves.
It teaches that you must be born again, and then defines born again as baptism. Baptism is a work. If you don't have the work of baptism you cannot be saved. The RCC has a works-based salvation, not a salvation based on grace.
Think of this verse.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is either grace or works; it cannot be both.

It is GRACE. The Catholic Church does not teach that if a person is simply baptized that they have salvation. If it did teach that, then it would be a 'works based salvation'. Just being a card carrying Catholic does not get a person into heaven. A Catholic's salvation is based on the Grace of God, through faith.

Interesting that Luther cut the book of James out of the Bible when he came out with his September bible. The epistle of 'straw'.

 

[DHK]

It is GRACE. The Catholic Church does not teach that if a person is simply baptized that they have salvation. If it did teach that, then it would be a 'works based salvation'. Just being a card carrying Catholic does not get a person into heaven. A Catholic's salvation is based on the Grace of God, through faith.

Interesting that Luther cut the book of James out of the Bible when he came out with his September bible. The epistle of 'straw'.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

GRACE + WORKS = WORKS
Grace is canceled out by works. That is what the verse teaches. Study it carefully. If there are any works involved in salvation then there is no grace at all. This verse alone teaches that salvation is by grace alone and therefore by faith alone. There are no works involved in salvation. There can be no baptism (a work) involved in salvation. Otherwise it is a works-based salvation.

 

[Zenas]

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

GRACE + WORKS = WORKS
Grace is canceled out by works. That is what the verse teaches. Study it carefully. If there are any works involved in salvation then there is no grace at all. This verse alone teaches that salvation is by grace alone and therefore by faith alone. There are no works involved in salvation. There can be no baptism (a work) involved in salvation. Otherwise it is a works-based salvation.

Context, DHK. Romans 11:6 is talking about works of the law. It is preceded by and followed by Paul's discussion of the Jews. Moreover, it says "no more of works." The NASB says "it is no longer on the basis of works." Paul is comparing what was previously (works of the law) with what now is (grace). Any discussion of baptism or any other so called "work" is irrelavent to this passage. In fact, I can't at the moment think of anywhere Paul wrote about works that he wasn't referring to circumcision, dietary rules and other works of the law.

 

[gb93433]

Faith alone is also clearly defined. It is never beyond the text.

James 1:22, "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves."

Proving yourself as a doer of the word is beyond the text. It is applying the text.

 

[DHK]

Context, DHK. Romans 11:6 is talking about works of the law. It is preceded by and followed by Paul's discussion of the Jews. Moreover, it says "no more of works." The NASB says "it is no longer on the basis of works." Paul is comparing what was previously (works of the law) with what now is (grace). Any discussion of baptism or any other so called "work" is irrelavent to this passage. In fact, I can't at the moment think of anywhere Paul wrote about works that he wasn't referring to circumcision, dietary rules and other works of the law.

Then you are not thinking.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:1-5 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Abraham was justified by faith alone. Abraham lived before the law.

I posted (in one of these threads) a list of about a dozen Scriptures showing how works cannot be a part of salvation. You have a short memory.
Salvation is the same in the OT as it is in the NT. It is by faith, not by works. It was never by works and never will be by works. God did not accept the works of Cain, and he won't accept your works or anyone else's works. Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourselves. It is not of oneself; not of one's works or doings. It is by faith; faith alone.

 

[Marcia]

I don't disagree that salvation is by faith alone as long as that faith includes acting on belief. My contention is that scripture may alude to salvation being by faith alone but it isn't specified in those terms which means that to make that determination you must use resources beyond text. Such as your mind, the leading of the Holy Spirit (Ghost if your pentecostal), etc.... salvation by faith is derived at not explicit in the text.

You are giving a qualification that is not in scripture. One is saved and justified when one believes in Christ, period.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

1. Rom. 1: 16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
2. Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
3. Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
4. Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
5. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
6. Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
7. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
8. Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
9. Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
10. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
11. Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
12. Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
13. Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
14. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
15. Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
16. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
17. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
18. Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
19. Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
20. Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
21. Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
22. Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
23. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
24. Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
25. Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
26. Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
27. 1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: One is saved and justified when one believes in Christ, period.

HP: I missed that "period” in the Word of God. Be reminded of two other conditions of salvation besides faith that are mentioned, i.e., repentance and continued obedience. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: I missed that "period” in the Word of God. Be reminded of two other conditions of salvation besides faith that are mentioned, i.e., repentance and continued obedience. :thumbs:

"repentance + obedience" = works.

works = no salvation.

"repentance + faith alone = salvation.

There are no works, no continued obedience as requirements for salvation.
This is a heretical view of salvation. In fact it is the same view of salvation that is held by Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Taoism, J.W.'s, Mormons, the RCC, and every other religion of the world. Christianity does not hold to a works-based salvation, as you have described.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are giving a qualification that is not in scripture. One is saved and justified when one believes in Christ, period.

If what you say is the case it ignores Jesus own words. If faith is nothing more than believing something then scripture contradicts itself. Thus the gospels and James contradict Paul and the epistles of Paul become null because of what the Lord himself has said. No faith can only be understood as a belief that acts on what it believes or you throw out these verses:

Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Mt 7:21)

Mt 25:31-44-- At the Last Judgement, the Lord judges the sheep and the goats based on what they have done.

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. (Lk 6:45)

Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (Jn 14:23)

 

[Marcia]

If what you say is the case it ignores Jesus own words. If faith is nothing more than believing something then scripture contradicts itself. Thus the gospels and James contradict Paul and the epistles of Paul become null because of what the Lord himself has said. No faith can only be understood as a belief that acts on what it believes or you throw out these verses:

I'm not talking about faith in something - it's faith in Someone - Jesus Christ. Saving faith in Christ is justification and eternal life. This saving faith should produce results which are expanded on in the Epistles. Nothing Jesus says indicates that we have to do something to keep our salvation.

If you think we need to do works to keep our salvation, you should not be a Baptist. That is not a Baptist belief, as far as I know. Nor is it biblical.

But I said not long ago I am not going to get into extended discussions here on either having to work to be saved or having to work to keep being saved. I find it a hideous doctrine contradicted by the Bible, and yes, I have seen all the verse used for that view. None of it is convincing when one examines the whole of scripture and studies the difficult passages.

Moreover, I started this thread and the OP is asserting that the Bible teaches that salvation is by faith alone (iow, the doctrine that salvation is by faith alone is not beyond the text). If people want to discuss losing salvation, which is a different topic, please go to another thread or start another thread. Otherwise, I will ask a mod to close this thread, and it will be closed.

 

[gb93433]

I'm not talking about faith in something - it's faith in Someone - Jesus Christ. Saving faith in Christ is justification and eternal life. This saving faith should produce results which are expanded on in the Epistles. Nothing Jesus says indicates that we have to do something to keep our salvation.

James 2:14-26, "14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, [being] by itself. 18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

A genuine saving faith is accompanied by works. A genuine saving faith in Jesus Christ is proven by the works that accompany it. One who believed in Jesus Christ at that time was baptized. By naming Christ as Lord meant that the emperor could have had that person executed.

An alive faith in Jesus Christ shows.

A creedal faith is nothing more than intellectual faith disguised as genuine faith. I have never seen a person who is genuinely saved and obedient who has not made disciples.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Zenas: Context, DHK. Romans 11:6 is talking about works of the law. It is preceded by and followed by Paul's discussion of the Jews. Moreover, it says "no more of works." The NASB says "it is no longer on the basis of works." Paul is comparing what was previously (works of the law) with what now is (grace). Any discussion of baptism or any other so called "work" is irrelavent to this passage. In fact, I can't at the moment think of anywhere Paul wrote about works that he wasn't referring to circumcision, dietary rules and other works of the law.

DHK: Then you are not thinking.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

HP: Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Keep on thinking Zenas! :wavey::thumbs: