Faith alone beyond the text?

[DHK]

HP: Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Keep on thinking Zenas! :wavey::thumbs:

From Eph.2:8 HP flies through two more paragraphs of Scripture, disregards all context, the number of changes made and the different topics introduced between verses 8 and 15, and then thinks that he has a valid point!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: From Eph.2:8 HP flies through two more paragraphs of Scripture, disregards all context, the number of changes made and the different topics introduced between verses 8 and 15, and then thinks that he has a valid point!

HP: Now once again, you are a fine one to preach to the rest of us the importance of context. What is so ironic is that context to you can be as short or as long, as clearly stated or as hidden, as it takes to wield it as a sword against your opponent. As a matter of fact if you are just trying to find a proof text to support a position, you simply say context does not even matter! Here is DHK on rejecting context if it supports his agenda to do so:

DHK: There are some verses which can stand alone as timeless truths forever speaking forth the truth regardless of context.

 

[DHK]

HP: Now once again, you are a fine one to preach to the rest of us the importance of context. What is so ironic is that context to you can be as short or as long, as clearly stated or as hidden, as it takes to wield it as a sword against your opponent. As a matter of fact if you are just trying to find a proof text to support a position, you simply say context does not even matter! Here is DHK on rejecting context if it supports his agenda to do so:

HP, you display an attitude of one who disdains the Bible, disdains any serious study of the Bible, and is fast on the track of becoming an agnostic. Are you?
When one points out truth you either question it or deny it.
What's up with that?

I point out the truths contained in Eph.2:8,9, and you do nothing but deny them. I refute your rebuttal and you throw dirt. Are you an agnostic?

You certainly are not very good with the Scriptures.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Are you an agnostic?

HP: No I am not. Why is it that you simply violate the rules of this forum at will? Agnostics are not believers and it is against the rules to question the salvation of another as you clearly do in asking such a question.

 

[DHK]

HP: No I am not. Why is it that you simply violate the rules of this forum at will? Agnostics are not believers and it is against the rules to question the salvation of another as you clearly do in asking such a question.

If I give you an answer from the Bible it is as if you mock it. So what do you want me to say?
Here was my answer to you, meant to give you something serious to think about.

From Eph.2:8 HP flies through two more paragraphs of Scripture, disregards all context, the number of changes made and the different topics introduced between verses 8 and 15, and then thinks that he has a valid point

Instead you mock. Agnostics mock.

Ephesians 2:8,9 are one subject. Stick to it. Verse 15 is in a completely different context. I don't think you want to admit that. Like those in cults you take scripture out of context to make it mean something it doesn't. If you are not willing to learn why hang around here?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And agnostics run amok. :laugh: I have to admit the more I study the bible, how it was put together, when the writings occured, the multitude of papers from textual critics I also begin to ask more difficult questions.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm not talking about faith in something - it's faith in Someone - Jesus Christ. Saving faith in Christ is justification and eternal life. This saving faith should produce results which are expanded on in the Epistles. Nothing Jesus says indicates that we have to do something to keep our salvation.

If you think we need to do works to keep our salvation, you should not be a Baptist. That is not a Baptist belief, as far as I know. Nor is it biblical.

But I said not long ago I am not going to get into extended discussions here on either having to work to be saved or having to work to keep being saved. I find it a hideous doctrine contradicted by the Bible, and yes, I have seen all the verse used for that view. None of it is convincing when one examines the whole of scripture and studies the difficult passages.

Moreover, I started this thread and the OP is asserting that the Bible teaches that salvation is by faith alone (iow, the doctrine that salvation is by faith alone is not beyond the text). If people want to discuss losing salvation, which is a different topic, please go to another thread or start another thread. Otherwise, I will ask a mod to close this thread, and it will be closed.

And I'm saying a person doesn't have faith unless its evident by works. I'm not saying you should do works to keep you salvation. I'm saying if theres no works there is no faith to begin with.

 

[DHK]

And I'm saying a person doesn't have faith unless its evident by works. I'm not saying you should do works to keep you salvation. I'm saying if theres no works there is no faith to begin with.

There were no apparent works with Lot, and yet he was declared just or righteous before God by God Himself.
The problem with your position is that you are the one that sets yourself up as a god judging the person. Who are you to judge? By what standard (yours) do you judge?
1. How many works?
2. What kind of works?
3. Where are the works done?
4. Are they visible to you (what if they are not, but are visible to others)?

The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it (Jer.17:9). This applies to you (everyone) as well.
Only God knows the heart and only God can judge the heart.
What did God say in the time of David?

It was Israel that chose Saul. They looked upon the outward appearance and thus judged a man.
God chose David. He looks upon the heart; the inward man. David was a man after God's own heart.

Thus when you say if the man's faith is not evident by his works, how do you know what his works are unless your are omniscient? Are you?

 

[Marcia]

And I'm saying a person doesn't have faith unless its evident by works. I'm not saying you should do works to keep you salvation. I'm saying if theres no works there is no faith to begin with.

Faith should produce works, but that is a process of sanctification. People are in different places in their sanctification. People can and do resist sanctification. I agree with DHK's post.

 

[Trotter]

I third DHK's post. I know several who are as lost as a goose in a snowstorm, but their works would say that they are the most godly people on earth. They think these works will buy them a ticket into heaven but they are very sadly mistaken.

 

[gb93433]

I third DHK's post. I know several who are as lost as a goose in a snowstorm, but their works would say that they are the most godly people on earth. They think these works will buy them a ticket into heaven but they are very sadly mistaken.

If we tend to lump them into the church crowd, then what does that say about the church today? I do not find any of those who seemingly have good works as though they impersonate the godly to be making disciples of Jesus Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Faith should produce works, but that is a process of sanctification. People are in different places in their sanctification. People can and do resist sanctification. I agree with DHK's post.

I think you and DHK misunderstand what I am saying so I'll post here what I said to HP.

Of course faith has two aspects belief and acting on that belief. The belief aspect always preceeds the action. However, I want to distinguish between a belief and faith. The demons believe in God and tremble. For them it does not avail them. Faith molds us and indeed transforms us and thus the works of faith is two fold. It works on us and bears works from us. Which is why James says you believe but I will show you my faith by my works. Thus no faith no works

So much here depends on now, before and after and we are so bound by timelines that we get hung up on them. Thank God Heaven is outside of time and is indeed eternal. For me belief is nothing unless its transformative which it then becomes faith. I may believe the polar ice caps are melting (they are not but thats not my point) and if I do nothing about it my belief is pointless. Its not the saving kind. IF I begin to reduce my carbon print then it is faith and its the saving kind. On one hand I am not transformed on the other hand I am. One saves the other does not.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There were no apparent works with Lot, and yet he was declared just or righteous before God by God Himself.
The problem with your position is that you are the one that sets yourself up as a god judging the person. Who are you to judge? By what standard (yours) do you judge?
1. How many works?
2. What kind of works?
3. Where are the works done?
4. Are they visible to you (what if they are not, but are visible to others)?

The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it (Jer.17:9). This applies to you (everyone) as well.
Only God knows the heart and only God can judge the heart.
What did God say in the time of David?

It was Israel that chose Saul. They looked upon the outward appearance and thus judged a man.
God chose David. He looks upon the heart; the inward man. David was a man after God's own heart.

Thus when you say if the man's faith is not evident by his works, how do you know what his works are unless your are omniscient? Are you?

I am never in a position to judge what a man's faith is or is not. That is up to God. He alone judges. I can only speak for myself and I am accountable to God for what I do and do not. I let God handle other people and say what their faith is or is not.

 

[DHK]

I think you and DHK misunderstand what I am saying so I'll post here what I said to HP. So much here depends on now, before and after and we are so bound by timelines that we get hung up on them. Thank God Heaven is outside of time and is indeed eternal. For me belief is nothing unless its transformative which it then becomes faith. I may believe the polar ice caps are melting (they are not but thats not my point) and if I do nothing about it my belief is pointless. Its not the saving kind. IF I begin to reduce my carbon print then it is faith and its the saving kind. On one hand I am not transformed on the other hand I am. One saves the other does not.

Faith has an object.
It is that object that differentiates it from head knowledge.
I can look out the window and say, "I believe the sun is shining." That does not require faith, but it is factual knowledge based on observation.
"The devils believe and tremble." That is not faith. For demons have seen God and were cast out of heaven. There is no need to differentiate between saving faith and any other kind of faith. Faith is faith. Faith has an object. Belief in those things that we see, do not demand faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
--Faith--the evidence of things not seen; not of things that are seen.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen. (WEB)
--It involves hope. It is the proof of things not seen

1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
--Faith is the confidence that we have in the Lord--the confidence to come right before his throne that He will hear us and answer prayer.

What is the object of your faith?
Sometimes it is my wife. That is not wrong. I have faith in my wife that she will have dinner ready for me each evening. The occasional time she doesn't because she gets sick. That doesn't mean my faith has failed. It means that man is fallible. He is not perfect. But God doesn't get sick. He is perfect. His promises are perfect. Therefore our faith in him should never waver.
I put faith in my car that when I turn the key in the ignition it will start. Why? Because I have done it many times before. But some time it will fail. Again, it is not perfect. But God is.

The faith is no different in nature. There is no such thing as a "saving faith." I put that same faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, in his promises that he will save me. And He did. He gave me eternal life and forgave my sins. He does not give an unsaved man faith. But for a saved man he does give faith. And so since that time my faith in God has grown. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. That promise is for believers.

If the object of my faith is Christ, I admit that he is Lord of my life; he is my master and I am his servant. That admission is going to change my life. My faith in him makes him Lord and automatically requires my submission to him.

If a man joins the army he must put his faith in the army to provide and protect him. He can't do it himself. He must submit to every ordinance that the army has.
And so it is with God's army. Fortunately there is a bit more grace in God's army than the U.S. army. There are no court martials.

 

[zrs6v4]

Im just throwing this in there

Faith:
1. Knowledge
2. Assent
3. Trust

Faith includes an actual heart turning to Christ for forgiveness. This true heart change "must" always lead into action or it isnt a true heart change. This is why Paul and James are not contradictory and you will find that James is saying just this. Faith alone is true, but must and will always be accompanied with action because Wherever the heart turns the mouth speaks and the life goes. This is also why faith and repentance are both together and one cannot be left without the other. Furthermore, this is why Jesus spoke so much about bearing fruit. If a person does not bear fruit he will basically show that he never had a heart change. true faith and repentence = bearing fruit and thus faith without works is dead or IOW faith without works is not faith at all, it never came alive..... Which leads into regeneration, but Ill stop there

Faith functions with love. True love and faith endure all things.

Our faith in Christ always lead us to "do" but not to prove. If we are constantly trying to prove, we risk a lack of genuine faith that works freely out of love. We don't need to prove anything to God, nor does God need our constant obedience to keep our forgiveness. That really seems weird if you think about it. God wants us to live in faith, love, holiness, and so forth. The commandments do not become burdensome when walking in the Spirit, which is exactly what works based salvation risks- making the commandments not genuine but slavery as we potentially see God with a whip if we fall away. This does not take away from the seriousness of falling away mind you, but does change the heart behind our repentance when we do turn to God.

 

[billwald]

>I have faith in my wife that she will have dinner ready for me each evening.

You are newly wed and don't have historical evidence that cooking dinner is her normal practice?

She has never suggested that you eat out? Would your faith in your wife be destroyed if she made that suggestion?

 

[DHK]

>I have faith in my wife that she will have dinner ready for me each evening.

You are newly wed and don't have historical evidence that cooking dinner is her normal practice?

She has never suggested that you eat out? Would your faith in your wife be destroyed if she made that suggestion?

First, being a grandparent I am not newly wed, thus I have plenty of historical evidence. Faith is based on relationship. The more you get to know God the more faith you will have in him. That is the basis of the verse: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The deeper the relationship I have with my wife the more confidence or faith I am able to put in her.

Second, you are correct in saying that it would be a "suggestion."
Third, Suggestions can be over-ruled by other factors such as lack of finances, and that would not destroy either her faith nor my faith.
Fourth, (a good illustration), since I am the head of the household, I delight in suggestions, as our Heavenly Father delights in prayer. Perhaps it may be that her suggestion might be granted. (Please don't read into this little parable that she would be praying to me).

 

[billwald]

OK, then what sort of topics of which you know and have experience with DON'T you "have faith in?" Do you restrict the classification, objects of faith, to persons?

For example, do you have "faith in" the multiplication table? Do you have "faith in" your Bible? The several standard "Christian" (i.e. not the JW bible) translations that people on this list use?

 

[DHK]

OK, then what sort of topics of which you know and have experience with DON'T you "have faith in?" Do you restrict the classification, objects of faith, to persons?

For example, do you have "faith in" the multiplication table? Do you have "faith in" your Bible? The several standard "Christian" (i.e. not the JW bible) translations that people on this list use?

Faith is confidence. I can have faith in anything that I can put my confidence in. I have faith in my car, that when I put my key in the ignition and turn it that it will start. Why? Because, in a sense, I have developed a relationship with it. I have done it hundreds of times before and it faithfully starts. But someday it won't. That doesn't deter my faith. That only tells me that my car was made by fallible man and therefore is fallible, wears down, deteriorates, and someday will have to be replaced.
But God is infallible. His promises never fail. He never changed. Therefore my faith in him is unchanging--I know that I can depend on his promises that they will never fail no matter what. This is the example of Abraham.

Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Abraham was strong in faith. What is faith?
It is being fully persuaded that what God has promised, God will do.
--That application extends to every area of my life. But in other areas I can't be fully persuaded that my car will always start, because it was made by man, who is fallible whereas God is infallible.

There are absolutes in this world. You referred to Math. 3X2=6. You can be absolutely persuaded of that. In a base ten system that will never change. It is an absolute. It can't change.

Concerning textual criticism different scholars have come to different conclusions, based on different criteria and assumptions. The question is should they make absolute dogmatic statements. In some cases yes, depending on what the statement is. In some cases no. For not everything is black and white.

 

[billwald]

>Faith is confidence. I can have faith in anything that I can put my confidence in. I have faith in my car, that when I put my key in the ignition and turn it that it will start. Why? Because, in a sense, I have developed a relationship with it. I have done it hundreds of times before and it faithfully starts. But someday it won't. That doesn't deter my faith. That only tells me that my car was made by fallible man and therefore is fallible, wears down, deteriorates, and someday will have to be replaced.

We both write in English but one is DOS, the other Mac. I think you are the Mac.