Can mankind forfeit saving grace?

[Skandelon]

Ah, believe what you want. As far as I'm concerned your argument is not with me.

I liken your crusade to stamp out Calvinism to 'kicking against the goads'. Methinks you'll either grow very, very tired or break your foot.

When I see responses like this I always get a visual image of a kid with his fingers in his ears yelling "nanananana, I can't hear youuuuu!" :laugh:

When you, or others, submit a passage that appears to contradict my views I address it thoroughly because I have nothing to hide or run from. Thus, intended or not, your response (or lack thereof) to this passage is revealing.

 

[kyredneck]

Yeah.

among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- Eph 2:3

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Jer 13:23

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10:26

Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2:14

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mt 7:18

The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. Ps 58:3

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. Ps 51:5

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Job 14:4

What is man, that he should be clean? And he that is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Job 15:14

Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from of old thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou didst deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb. Isa 48:8

The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it? Jer 17:9

I reiterate, when you can't accept the above, you're argument is not with me. Go ahead with the typical accusations. I grow weary of this futile debate. It only stifles the joy that's in the Word for me. All that matters is that I'm comfortable with where I'm at. May you be also.

 

[Skandelon]

I reiterate, when you can't accept the above, you're argument is not with me. Go ahead with the typical accusations. I grow weary of this futile debate. It only stifles the joy that's in the Word for me. All that matters is that I'm comfortable with where I'm at. May you be also.

I answered those verses and I fully agreed with what they state, while you ignore my response. Again I see a little boy with fingers in his ears, "Nananananananana, I can't hear youuuuuuuuu!"

That's fine. Clearly you'd rather not engage the issues. I understand.

 

[Skandelon]

Maybe you missed this post, because you never addressed the verses and argument I presented:

Not one of those verses addresses our point of contention. We both agree men are born sinful and in need of saving grace. We both agree that God must intervene to bring about change. We both agree that man, left on his own, will be selfish and defiled. That is all these verses say. They say NOTHING about man's ability to RESPOND to God's ministry of reconciliation.

So, yeah...

23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" -Acts 28

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." - John 12

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' " - Mark 4

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. -Rm 11

11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. - 2 Cor

Do you see the difference in the verses you listed and the ones I've listed? Your verses are all about man's condition prior to God's solution....the ministry of reconciliation. Now, if you can find a verse that teaches that God's ministry of reconciliation is somehow insufficient to accomplish reconciliation in anyone except those he has elected and first regenerated then you might have a solid argument.

 

[HankD]

Jonah 2:8 The Hebrew word is chesed, The common word for "mercy".

NKJ Jonah 2:8 "Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy.
​

It does have a rare nuance that would make the functional equivalent of this verse say :

Jonah 2:8 Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own good sense.​

Or more in keeping with the 21st century vernacular:​

Jonah 2:8 Those who regard worthless idols have forsaken their own common sense.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

Kyredneck, all of the verses you show to prove Total Depravity can be shown to be pulled out of context, and do not prove Total Depravity.

among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- Eph 2:3

Nature here means learned behaviour, not how you were born. Note it says you "once lived" and "doing". A baby cannot do these things. And other verses show man by nature can do good.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Here Paul says the Gentiles "by nature" keep God's laws and have the law written on their hearts. These are people who did not know the scriptures, they were not saved. But all men have a God-given conscience and know they difference between right and wrong. So this contradicts Total Depravity.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

This might be the one verse in all of scripture that could truly be argued to support Total Depravity, but "cannot" in verse 43 does not show inability, but unwillingness. Here is what Matthew Henry (a Calvinist) wrote on this verse.

Christ spoke the words of God (ch. 3:34) in the dialect of the kingdom of God; and yet they, who pretended to belong to the kingdom, understood not the idioms and properties of it, but like strangers, and rude ones too, ridiculed it. And the reason why they did not understand Christ’s speech made the matter much worse: Even because you cannot hear my word, that is, "You cannot persuade yourselves to hear it attentively, impartially, and without prejudice, as it should be heard.’’ The meaning of this cannot is an obstinate will not; as the Jews could not hear Stephen (Acts 7:57) nor Paul, Acts 23:22. Note, The rooted antipathy of men’s corrupt hearts to the doctrine of Christ is the true reason of their ignorance of it, and of their errors and mistakes about it. They do not like it nor love it, and therefore they will not understand it;

So cannot here does not mean inability, it means unwillingness.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10:26

This is taken out of context, Jesus first says his sheep are those that hear his voice. And the scriptures say God does not know you until you first believe.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

You are not known of God until after you trust on Christ.

1 Cor 2:14 has been discussed many times, and is speaking of the Greeks who sought worldly and non-spiritual answers (wisdom).

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mt 7:18

This is taken out of context, Jesus shows that a man is responsible for what fruit he bears.

Matt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

That's enough, although all the verses can be shown not to be interpreted as you do. Anybody can pick verses here and there to make the scriptures say anything they want, and that is what Calvinism does. Have you ever seen this little story?

"Once upon a time, a man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, and the thorns grew up and choked him.

And he went on and met the Queen of Sheba, and she gave him a thousand talents of gold and silver, and a hundred changes of rainment. And he got in his chariot and drove furiously. And when he was driving along under a tree his hair got caught in a limb and left him hanging there.

And he hung there many days and many nights, and ravens brought him food to eat and drink. And one night while he was hanging there asleep, his wife, Delilah, came and cut off his hair, and he dropped and fell on the stony ground; and it began to rain and it rained forty days and forty nights, and he hid himself in a cave.

And he went on and met a man who said, "Come in and take supper with me," but he said, "I cannot come, for I have married a wife." And the man went out into the highways and byways and compelled him to come.

He went on and came to Jerusalem and he saw Queen Jezebel sitting high up in a window. When she saw him she laughed. And he said, "Throw her down out of there," and they threw her down. And he said, "Throw her down again," and they threw her down seventy times seven times, and of the fragments they then picked up twelve baskets full. Now whose wife will she be in the day of judgment?"

This is how many interpret the scriptures, they take a verse here, a verse there, and construct their own theology.

 

[olegig]

Jonah 2:8 says that "those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."

If, as Calvinism teaches, God determined before time began who would be reprobates, and therefore does not extend saving grace to them, how logically can we understand this verse's statement that these reprobates, "forfeited the grace that could be theirs?"

Well, in fact there is life outside the C/A debate and there is also some interesting scriptural doctrine outside said debate.
The only folks in the Bible who do have security of salvation are those covered by the Davidic Covenant which would include those placed in Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

.....The only folks in the Bible who do have security of salvation are those covered by the Davidic Covenant which would include those placed in Christ.

Splain that please? Never heard that one before.

 

[olegig]

Splain that please? Never heard that one before.

First let me say surely you understand if I show a degree of skepticism in your request.
And since I am a bit pressed for time tonight, let me do this and then if you are still interested, we can talk.

The scriptural references for the Davidic Covenant and how it might affect eternal security of the believer are found in:
Psa 89: 28-36; 2Sam 7:12; & Acts 13:34.
I give you these so you will know this is based in the Book and not some man's commentary.

Reveiw these passages and then if you are still truely interested we can discuss it.

 

[Amy.G]

First let me say surely you understand if I show a degree of skepticism in your request.
And since I am a bit pressed for time tonight, let me do this and then if you are still interested, we can talk.

The scriptural references for the Davidic Covenant and how it might affect eternal security of the believer are found in:
Psa 89: 28-36; 2Sam 7:12; & Acts 13:34.
I give you these so you will know this is based in the Book and not some man's commentary.

Reveiw these passages and then if you are still truely interested we can discuss it.

Do you believe the unfaithful believer will suffer punishment during the Millennial Kingdom, but will still be saved?

 

[Allan]

But we're not speaking of eternal life here, are we? Yes, salvation belongs to the Lord - not to us. We don't earn it.

Yes, we are speaking of eternal life here. I know we don't 'earn' it, and did not contend such in my post. But here is a fact that is irrevokable... God can not, does not, and will not eternally save anyone until after they have believed. Now since 'faith', according to Romams 4:4-6, states that faith can not nor in any way be viewed as a work for salvation.. we must ask the question - Why is our salvation dependant upon us believing and not just divine grace?

How could they have been saved? They didn't love the truth. They never did and they never would.

How could they have been saved, you ask? I am glad you did. It is because scripture, by God Himself, said they 'could'. It does not matter that they did not love the truth, nor that they would not EVER recieve it. What matters is that God said they reject the truth that COULD/CAN SAVE THEM.

How could it 'save them' it the atonement of Christ was not made FOR them?
Answer - It could not, not even potentially, hypothetically, or otherwise. But what the passage states is that after they rejected the offer 'to be saved' God makes them to believe their lie so that they might be condemned/damned.

WHY? Because they did not believe the truth.
The emphasis is on the fact they 'could' have believed.. but they chose not to. Salvation was offered to them, 'to be saved' but since it was reject, they were damned BECAUSE they did not believe the truth.

What Truth? (THIS IS KEY) What truth is it talking about that they rejected, which was their sole/only provision for escaping damnation?

Let's read on to what Paul said:

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

Praise God that He chose us to be saved and to believe in the truth.

No non-c disagrees with you here. We all praise God that He chose us to be saved. IMHO - I think you take the rest of the passage further than the text is intending to take it. While there is no denying that we are chosen to salvation, it is 'way' God determined it to functionally work where we see biblical differences.

But in either case, for the purpose of the OP, the main thrust or point I am making with these passages I have presented (of which this is but one) we see salvation is not only offered to all men, but that in the offering (of which a many reformed agree God does) there is a truth which is denied by those who will not be saved and rejection of this truth damns them, and it is that truth which proves Christ did not die only for the elect.
Because, we both agree, it is only Christ death (propitiation) for ..whomever.. which makes the way for a person to be saved and that by faith.
Therefore no offer of salvation can be given unless the truth is that Christ died for that salvation to be possible.

 

[olegig]

Do you believe the unfaithful believer will suffer punishment during the Millennial Kingdom, but will still be saved?

I don't think anyone in the Millennial Kingdom, whether they are Jew, Gentile, or the Church of God will be suffering.
My previous statement was dealing with the security of salvation, not an inheritance.

However there is the following; but I don't think that is what you are referring to because I would not term those in the following passages as 'unfaithful believers':

Zec 14:
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[Cypress]

Thanks Allan!

 

[kyredneck]

First let me say surely you understand if I show a degree of skepticism in your request........

My apologies for the skepticism. But this:

......The only folks in the Bible who do have security of salvation are those covered by the Davidic Covenant which would include those placed in Christ.

..........sounded as if you are implying TWO ways of salvation. You're not, are you?


The passages you referenced are fulfilled in Christ, not David. Agree?:

28 My lovingkindness will I keep for him for evermore; And my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, And his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, And walk not in mine ordinances;
31 If they break my statutes, And keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes.
33 But my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, Nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, Nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness: I will not lie unto David:
36 His seed shall endure for ever, And his throne as the sun before me. Ps 89

When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 2 Sam 7:12

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David. Acts 13:34

 

[Amy.G]

I don't think anyone in the Millennial Kingdom, whether they are Jew, Gentile, or the Church of God will be suffering.

Do you believe that some Christians will go to outer darkness during the 1000 year reign of Christ?

 

[olegig]

..........sounded as if you are implying TWO ways of salvation. You're not, are you?

IMO there is only one way of salvation and that is following the instructions of God. However we must also recognize God gave different men a different set of instructions.

Men get fouled up when they try to follow the instructions given to a different group while ignoring the instructions given to them.
An example would be Catholic doctrine which is very similar to OT salvation under the law but misplaced to the wrong group.

The passages you referenced are fulfilled in Christ, not David. Agree?:

I think they are fulfilled in both just as the Book says. David's heirs had the "sure mercies of David" and thus God's faithfulness would not turn from them. (Psa 89:33)
(The full implications of this are seen when one studies OT salvation under the law and eventually has to answer the question of what became of an OT saint if he all of a sudden decided he no longer had to do all the things involved in Temple worship.)

The Bible is very plain to tell us Jesus was in the line of David so therefore the "sure mercies of David" were also on Christ and all those placed in Christ.
God will never take from us His lovingkindness or suffer His faithfulness to fail us because we are in Christ.
And to make sure this happens He seals us with the indwelling Holy Spirit who is the earnest of our salvation.
We do not have to worry that the Holy Spirit might leave us as it did king Saul.

33 But my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, Nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, Nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness: I will not lie unto David:
36 His seed shall endure for ever, And his throne as the sun before me. Ps 89

But, in answer to the OP, not everyone in the OT was in the linage of David and certainly not the Gentiles of Nineveh.

 

[olegig]

Do you believe that some Christians will go to outer darkness during the 1000 year reign of Christ?

I believe outer darkness is Hell and only lost folks go to Hell.

But that brings up an interesting study.
Amy what do you feel is in store during the future 1000 yr reign for a Christian who has lost his/her inheritance but not his/her salvation?

 

[kyredneck]

IMO there is only one way of salvation and that is following the instructions of God.

Yea, olegig, you're right there with hoi polloi on that one, ya gotta get that 'formula' just rite or you won't really be saved; you'll just think you are when you're actually bound for hell......

However we must also recognize God gave different men a different set of instructions.

So, you really were saying there are two different sets of instructions for salvation, and we're all really not one man in Christ now; there is a Jew, and a Gentile, and a Barbarian, and a Scythian, and a free. Never mind what Paul says........ different rules for different people. Right?

Men get fouled up when they try to follow the instructions given to a different group while ignoring the instructions given to them.
An example would be Catholic doctrine which is very similar to OT salvation under the law but misplaced to the wrong group.

So what group does the law apply to now?

....OT salvation under the law and eventually has to answer the question of what became of an OT saint if he all of a sudden decided he no longer had to do all the things involved in Temple worship.....

That confirms it, you DO believe people can be saved by keeping the law!

But, in answer to the OP, not everyone in the OT was in the linage of David and certainly not the Gentiles of Nineveh.

The more you post, the more you show how weird your religion is. Are you Jewish?

 

[Amy.G]

The more you post, the more you show how weird your religion is. Are you Jewish?

I believe he is a Millennial Exclusionist. They believe that an unfaithful or unfruitful believer will spend 1000 years (during the time of the MK) being punished for their unfaithfulness. After which they will then go to heaven with all other believers. But they will be excluded from the Millennial Kingdom.

This was a HOT topic on the BB a few years ago, so much so that they were banned from the board for teaching heresy.

 

[J.D.]

I believe he is a Millennial Exclusionist. They believe that an unfaithful or unfruitful believer will spend 1000 years (during the time of the MK) being punished for their unfaithfulness. After which they will then go to heaven with all other believers. But they will be excluded from the Millennial Kingdom.

This was a HOT topic on the BB a few years ago, so much so that they were banned from the board for teaching heresy.

I don't know if he's MK exclusionist, but he definitely is "classic" dispensationalist. Two ways of salvation...