Moderation Now and Abstinence Later

[swaimj]

A while back on a thread it was noted that, while we are allowed to eat meat now, originally men did not eat meat and, in the kingdom, men will not eat meat. So, one person allowed as how they do not eat meat now.

This bothered me. Why do we do things now that we KNOW we will not do in the kingdom (or the eternal state). Would it not be more spiritual to live now the way we will live in the kingdom?

Then, I began to think of things that we will not do then that we are allowed to do now; and not merely allowed, these things are perhaps marks of spirituality. For instance…

…in the eternal state, we will not marry or be given in marriage, but many of us are married now and the scriptures are clear in their instruction: “marriage is honorable and the bed undefiled”.

…in the eternal state we will not eat meat, but we do eat it now and it is good that we do so, for Paul said “every creature of God is good and is to be received with thanksgiving….”

…in the eternal state we will not drink alcoholic beverages because in that state there will be no death or decay—the process that produces alcohol. However, many on the BB drink in moderation now.

A question and a thought about all of this.

The question: Can you think of anything else that we are allowed to do now that we will not do in eternity?

The thought: Abstinence from many things that are possible to do now will be the norm in the eternal state. For now, moderation is superior to abstinence. In light of the above, do you agree with this statement?

 

[Marcia]

A while back on a thread it was noted that, while we are allowed to eat meat now, originally men did not eat meat and, in the kingdom, men will not eat meat. So, one person allowed as how they do not eat meat now.

I'm guessing this was me since as far as I know, I'm the only vegetarian on the BB, or the only one who admits it. However, my reasons for being one are not because men did not originally eat meat nor because we won't eat it in the kingdom. I became a vegetarian before I was a believer. I'm not practicing some kind of abstinence for a spiritual reason and never have.

 

[saturneptune]

The only thing I can think of that we do now that we will not do in eternity is how we as Christians interface with various levels of government, such as pay taxes, do our civil duties, and obey its laws. The Bible commands this. In eternity, we will be praising and worshiping the Lord. There will be no taxes. It will not be a matter of obeying laws, we will want to please the Lord. The ruling authority in eternity will be honest, a refreshing change.

 

[swaimj]

However, my reasons for being one are not because men did not originally eat meat nor because we won't eat it in the kingdom. I became a vegetarian before I was a believer. I'm not practicing some kind of abstinence for a spiritual reason and never have.

Thanks for the clarification. I did not go back and read the thread before I posted and, since the thread was a while back, I think I misconstued your reasoning. My apologies.

My overall point remains, which is this: perhaps it is generally better to practice moderation than abstinence in matters that God allows even though we WILL practice abstinence in eternity.

So, in this life...
Abstinence from sex is good, but it is not superior to marriage even though we will not be married in eternity.

Abstinence from alcohol is good, but is not superior to drinking in moderation though we will abstain in eternity.

Abstinence from eating meat is good, but is not superior to eating it in moderation though we will abstain in eternity.

My question is, can we add to this list?

 

[olegig]

This bothered me. Why do we do things now that we KNOW we will not do in the kingdom (or the eternal state). Would it not be more spiritual to live now the way we will live in the kingdom?

…in the eternal state......

…in the eternal state.....

I am a little confused here.
Are asking about in the kingdom, or the eternal state?
Are you asking about those on earth during the kingdom, or those who have a Glorified Body during the kingdom?
Are you referring to the future millennial kingdom reign of Christ, or the eternal state which is to follow?
Are you asking about the future fulfillment of God's physical promises to the Jews or of God's promises to the Body of Christ?

 

[swaimj]

Are asking about in the kingdom, or the eternal state?

I was intentionally vague on this because I didn't want the thread to turn into a debate on eschatology.

Does it make a difference? For instance, on the issue of marriage, will there be marriage in the kingdom? And will there be marriage in the eternal state? For certain, in the eternal state there will not be and I think probably in the kingdom there will not be, at least among resurrected believers.

Whatever you believe about that is not really relevant to my question. If you think there will be no marriage in either of the above or one of the above, then the question is pertinent to the one you hold. If you believe there will be marriage in both, then my question has no merit to you and sparks a different discussion altogether--one that is off the topic of this thread.

 

[Tom Butler]

I think that the idea that we won't be eating and drinking in eternity is probably true. But I'm not completely sure, and here's why:

Remember when the resurrected Jesus cooked some fish on the seashore and ate with Peter and others?

John 21:13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.

21:15 begins "So when they had dined..."

Did Jesus eat because his resurrected body needed food? My inclination is to think the answer is no. But it does open the door for the possibility that we will eat and drink in heaven, even if our bodies don't require food.

Yeah, I know, it sounds weird to me, too. Feel free to knock this idea down, if you want to try. What is it the kids say today? "I'm just sayin'...."

 

[olegig]

I was intentionally vague on this because I didn't want the thread to turn into a debate on eschatology.

ok

Does it make a difference?

Well, not as much as whether one believes on the death, burial, and resurrection.

For instance, on the issue of marriage, will there be marriage in the kingdom?

For some yes, for some probably not.

And will there be marriage in the eternal state?

For some probably yes, for some probably not.

There is mention of some eating a different fruit each month and fruit is described to Adam and Eve as meat.(Gen 1:9)
Does this count?

 

[Tom Butler]

Here's another one to chew on.

Rev 19 6-10 describes what is called the "marriage supper of the Lamb" in v.9. Does this describe a literal wedding feast? Feasts by definition involve eating and drinking.

If not, of what reality is this the symbol?

 

[olegig]

Here's another one to chew on.

Rev 19 6-10 describes what is called the "marriage supper of the Lamb" in v.9. Does this describe a literal wedding feast? Feasts by definition involve eating and drinking.

If not, of what reality is this the symbol?

Maybe there is more to the following than meets the eye.

John 6:56 (King James Version)

56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

 

[Marcia]

Here's another one to chew on.

Rev 19 6-10 describes what is called the "marriage supper of the Lamb" in v.9. Does this describe a literal wedding feast? Feasts by definition involve eating and drinking.

If not, of what reality is this the symbol?

Jesus said at the Last Supper (Matt. 26:29)

But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.

The same statement is also in Mark and Luke. I think it does mean we will be eating and drinking in heaven.

 

[Jerome]

From the OP:

…in the eternal state we will not drink alcoholic beverages because in that state there will be no death or decay—the process that produces alcohol.

 

[MrJim]

I'm sure God can produce for us a bottle of 12 year old Irish Whiskey for special occasions when He desires:smilewinkgrin:

 

[HankD]

Jesus made this promise:​

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Some like to "spiritualize" the eating and drinking but I prefer to take it literally.​

HankD​

 

[kyredneck]

.....I think it does mean we will be eating and drinking in heaven.

I'm sure God can produce for us a bottle of 12 year old Irish Whiskey for special occasions when He desires:smilewinkgrin:

Jesus made this promise:​

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Some like to "spiritualize" the eating and drinking but I prefer to take it literally.​

HankD​

Don't get me wrong, I've absolutely nothing against eating or drinking in our glorified bodies.....

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

.....but do you all believe it's referring to actual, literal, eating and drinking? (incidentally, I believe the Kingdom is now)

10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing; and all the trees of the fields shall clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir-tree; and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle-tree: and it shall be to Jehovah for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. Isa 55:10-13

I really believe it goes beyond the physical or literal; it's something that can't be tasted or touched in this physical realm. It's all spiritual.

 

[kyredneck]

It's consistent throughout the scriptures that eating and drinking is symbolic of communion with God.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:.... Ps 23:5

You ever have your heart soar rejoicing in the Word while on the job surrounded by the profane?

We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat that serve the tabernacle. Heb 13:10

 

[olegig]

Jesus made this promise:​

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Some like to "spiritualize" the eating and drinking but I prefer to take it literally.​

I agree it should be taken literally as with most all scripture even though we might not understand the literal meaning.

Spiritualizing leaves so much to chance and the whelms of the interpreter.
Spiritualizing also can break a chain of reference when scripture is indeed interpreting itself.

Don't get me wrong, I've absolutely nothing against eating or drinking in our glorified bodies.....

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

.....but do you all believe it's referring to actual, literal, eating and drinking? (incidentally, I believe the Kingdom is now)

10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing; and all the trees of the fields shall clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir-tree; and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle-tree: and it shall be to Jehovah for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. Isa 55:10-13

I really believe it goes beyond the physical or literal; it's something that can't be tasted or touched in this physical realm. It's all spiritual.

(If the Kingdom is now then one has to deal with 1Cor 15:50, but that is another topic for another thread.)

We see in the above posted by HankD the physical aspect of the future Kingdom as presented by the scriptures provided, which were directed to the Jews who will be physically on earth during the future Kingdom and eating, drinking, marrying, reproducing, needing rain, harvesting, etc......

We also see in the above posted by kyredneck the glorified aspect of the future Kingdom when members of the Body will have received their Glorified Bodies and be in position of ruling and reigning with Christ during the future Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

Thus the premillennial system is the only interpretive method that permits a literal reading of scripture and leaves the Word as it stands.

 

[kyredneck]

And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you. Lu 17:20,21

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. JKn 18:36


How much plainer could he have said it? His kingdom is a spiritual kingdom.

 

[olegig]

And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you. Lu 17:20,21

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. JKn 18:36


How much plainer could he have said it? His kingdom is a spiritual kingdom.

Two things one should consider if one wants the whole picture.

1. The problem presented by 1Cor 15:50 if one believes we are now in the Kingdom with Jesus 'spiritually' ruling rather than the prince of the air.
2. Note the wording of John as compared to Matthew. The book of Matthew is pregnant (as some might say) with the wording of Kingdom of Heaven as opposed to the Kingdom of God.
Since different words have different meanings one should discern these meanings before one wishes to expound on unfulfilled prophecy.
Also note in John 18:36 the phrase "but now",,,, when one answers the question of 'but what was before now' then IMO one will be closer to the truth.

Since this thread is not about unfulfilled prophecy "isms"; but about eating and drinking I will not go into it any further than to just say again the premillennial view of prophecy explains how some will be eating and drinking and others will not in the future thus offering a literal reading of verses dealing with the topic.

 

[kyredneck]

....the wording of Kingdom of Heaven as opposed to the Kingdom of God.....

It's synonomous olegig. When you strike out in that direction all you're doing is making the simple complex.