Ever Virgin

[drfuss]

Winman writes:
"Well, you know very well that the Catholics think Mary was always sinless, can that be said of any Christian?

The Catholics had to come up with this, seeing how Augustine introduced the doctrine of Original Sin teaching that a person is born a sinner. Trouble is, sin is not a physical quality like hair or eye color, and you do not inherit sin from your parents (or Adam). But falsely believing that sin is inherited as physical qualities are, they had to teach that she was sinless or Christ would have inherited sin from her. One false doctrine leads to another without end.

Well, it does matter, false doctrine is handed down from one generation to another. The doctrine of Total Depravity came out of the false doctrine of Original Sin.

Jesus was constantly correcting false doctrine handed down by tradition.

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

We see that the Jews themselves falsely believed in the concepts of original sin, asking whether this man whom they knew to be born blind was born so because of his parent's sin or his own sin. And notice Jesus said neither he nor his parents sinned. The Jews also falsely believed that being born with a handicap was a judgment from God against that person or their parents.

So, it matters a great deal what people taught in the past as future generations can receive false doctrine from them (and have)."


Two good posts, Winman. Thanks a lot.

 

[RAdam]

Jesus wasn't teaching against original sin, He was teaching against the Jewish idea that when something bad happened to someone it was a direct result of some horrible sin they committed. For instance, here's a blind guy. The Jews would assume either he or his parents had done something abominable for him to be stricken with blindness. Jesus is telling them that God has allowed this man to be blind so that His power could be manifest in healing him.

The question is not of where did sin come from, but rather why bad things happen to good people. The Jewish error was the same as the miserable comforters to Job - when bad things happen to someone, that person must have been doing something really wrong. That's nonsense. You can be doing right, living a faithful life to God, being a good disciple of Christ, etc and still have bad things happen to you. If fact Paul said all who will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

 

[drfuss]

You heard correctly. Wesley did in fact believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. See below:

I think Wesley was initially trained in the Church of England. I wonder if the above quote was before he was converted or after?

Also, does anyone know what the position of Arminius was concerning Mary being forever virgin?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Luk 1:48 For he hath looked upon the low estate of his handmaid: For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Only goes to show that only a man would think it a blessing to be "ever a virgin".

:laugh::laugh:

:tongue3:

 

[Zenas]

I think Wesley was initially trained in the Church of England. I wonder if the above quote was before he was converted or after?

The quote is from a letter written by John Wesley on July 18, 1749. I believe Wesley started the "Methodist Society" around 1739 and brought upon himself the scorn of the Church of England. However, he never actually left the Church of England.

 

[Winman]

Jesus wasn't teaching against original sin, He was teaching against the Jewish idea that when something bad happened to someone it was a direct result of some horrible sin they committed. For instance, here's a blind guy. The Jews would assume either he or his parents had done something abominable for him to be stricken with blindness. Jesus is telling them that God has allowed this man to be blind so that His power could be manifest in healing him.

The question is not of where did sin come from, but rather why bad things happen to good people. The Jewish error was the same as the miserable comforters to Job - when bad things happen to someone, that person must have been doing something really wrong. That's nonsense. You can be doing right, living a faithful life to God, being a good disciple of Christ, etc and still have bad things happen to you. If fact Paul said all who will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

I disagree, the disciples asked Jesus why this man was "born" blind, because of his sin or his parent's? Now how could this man have committed sin before he was born? So, they believed he was either being punished for his parent's sin, or for being born sinful.

We see this again when the Pharisees questioned this same blind man about his healing, seeking to accuse Jesus of working on the Sabbath.

John 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

John 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

These Pharisees indeed believed this man to be born a sinner and believed it the cause of his blindness.