Repentance for Salvation?

[GBC Pastor]

this woman undoubtedly took false comfort in her son's supposed "salvation."

Havensdad: I was wondering if you would take the time to give me your views on two questions I have.

1) In your opinion was there no possibility that this young man could have been saved?

2) What is your view of sanctification?


Look forward to your response. God bless you!

 

[Havensdad]

Havensdad: I was wondering if you would take the time to give me your views on two questions I have.

1) In your opinion was there no possibility that this young man could have been saved?

A person walking in the darkness (as opposed to falling into it for moments, followed by repentance) is not saved. Scripture is very clear on this. A person who has been indwelled by Christ, can no longer live in sin.

2) What is your view of sanctification?

Instantaneous change of attitude at the moment of salvation, with increasing ability to perform according to that attitude, as one's eyes remain constantly affixed to the Lord.

Look forward to your response. God bless you!

Hope that answers your question. God bless.

 

[Havensdad]

Technically speaking, I would rather reverse the order and say that we are saved by turning to Christ from everything else (world, flesh, devil, self, etc...). But to do this perfectly day by day, I am not able.

So say you Havensdad, but often among many there is either an actual or perceived legalism involved in the maintenance of this “Lordship salvation” in spite of the simplistic wording.

Another thing that a yellow blinking light to me is "we must turn away from sin and the world, and turn unto Christ". I know what you mean and though I am no Calvinist I would rather say that Christ turns us from sin through a cooperative effort involving our honesty with Him, obediance to the word of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

When we acknowledge our sin He cleanses us from the unrighteousness in our lives. "without Me you can do nothing".

Though I personally reject the term "Lordship salvation" He is my Lord without reservation, though I have failed Him along the way.

In fact He is more than my Lord, He is my Lord and my God. My Savior, my shepherd, my everything.

I believe some have confused or confounded the act of justification with the growth of sanctification.


Here is another objection to "Lordship salvation".

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

“Lord, Lord” (these folks used the Koine emphatic). Just to put one’s stamp of approval on or make a verbal confession of Jesus as Lord is no guarantee of salvation as shown by this Scripture above.

The Lord knows who are His and what to do with those who are not.

Matthew 13
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Finally, one day every tongue will confess (in reality) that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God…

Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There is a scriptural way whereby we can know the real from the pretenders.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

HankD

My friend and brother,

You may not know it, but you just perfectly defended the Lordship Salvation position. Everything that you have said here, including the scripture you quoted, and the way you quoted it, can be found in John Macarthur's book, "The Gospel according to Jesus."

Blessings.

 

[kyredneck]

....but often among many there is either an actual or perceived legalism involved in the maintenance of this “Lordship salvation” in spite of the simplistic wording.....

Hank makes a good point here, with me at least.

My post from the 'Comfort thread':

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

I don't know about you all, but the above enforces my belief that there is change in one, brought about by the Spirit, even before coming to Christ.

The poll is simple. Do you believe that in order to turn to Christ in faith, that we must simultaneously turn away from sin and the world (defined in this poll as repentance: other views of this word not withstanding)....

Perhaps it's in the your presentation of it, but what you're saying sounds rigid and extremely hard to do. It almost sounds contrary to what's contained within Christ's invitation:

Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Again, it's in the presentation; the goodness of God leadeth us to repentance, and once I got the picture of my Saviour as meek and lowly and loving and understanding, in lieu of demanding with high expectations, it melted my heart. It made me want to repent; not something I felt I HAD to do.

A Bible teacher of mine told the story once that while he was working on a group construction project with another Church, a fellow over by the way dropped something on his foot or hit himself with a hammer or something like that and let out a string of four letter words. My Bible teacher was somewhat taken aback by it, but no one else seemed to be bothered by it. Someone then told him, “Oh, that's Joe, don't pay any attention to him, he's only been saved for six weeks. You should've heard him before he got saved”. We should all be that patient and understanding with one another. I'm convinced our Saviour is.

 

[GBC Pastor]

increasing ability to perform according to that attitude

So then you would agree that this young man who was a "new believer" would be at his weakest in terms of his ability to live for Christ and therefore the most vulnerable to fall back into sin?

A person walking in the darkness (as opposed to falling into it for moments, followed by repentance

How would you define falling into sin for "moments"? By it do you mean that a true believer could stumble in their walk with the Lord, but not fall?

Would the parable of the prodigal son be a "moment" of falling into sin or would that be "walking in the darkness?"

 

[swaimj]

Anyone who believes we turn from sin, to Christ for salvation, believes in Lordship Salvation, whether or not they wish to call it that.

If they believe as you believe, why do they have to refer to it by the specific name that you choose. If they believe as you believe, why do you want to create a term that is not specifically in the Bible and divide people over it?

I posted on another thread the statement from my non-5-point Calvinistic alma mater about salvation and you agreed with it. You posted your definition of salvation on this thread and I agree with it. So, just what are we arguing over?

I do not use the term LS or Calvinist to refer to myself because there is not always agreement among those who claim the terms for themselves as to what they mean. Since that is true, holding to the term is meaningless at best and identifies me with the people who self-describe with the term and with whom I disagree, at worst. I'm happy to discuss what I believe about salvation, but if the point of doing that is to take on somebody else's brand name, I am not interested in the least.

 

[HankD]

If they believe as you believe, why do they have to refer to it by the specific name that you choose. If they believe as you believe, why do you want to create a term that is not specifically in the Bible and divide people over it?

I posted on another thread the statement from my non-5-point Calvinistic alma mater about salvation and you agreed with it. You posted your definition of salvation on this thread and I agree with it. So, just what are we arguing over?

I do not use the term LS or Calvinist to refer to myself because there is not always agreement among those who claim the terms for themselves as to what they mean. Since that is true, holding to the term is meaningless at best and identifies me with the people who self-describe with the term and with whom I disagree, at worst. I'm happy to discuss what I believe about salvation, but if the point of doing that is to take on somebody else's brand name, I am not interested in the least.

I agree with swaimj. We do too much labeling of the obvious.

On the other hand I suppose some shibboleths are necessary to make it clear where we stand without a theological dissertation.

However if someone doesn't pass our shibboleth then I think we need to be slow to judge their condition which is why I like the statement "by their fruits you shall know them".

Fruit takes time to blossom, grow and ripen.

HankD

 

[quantumfaith]

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (I John 1:8)

The simple truth is the battle with sin and the desire to sin is a lifelong challenge. The affirmation of "being born again" by grace through faith allows us through the agency of the Holy Spirit to in fact "say no" to sin. But unfortunately and sadly we often still do not and thus must maintain a heart of repentence daily.

 

[Havensdad]

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (I John 1:8)

Don't forget the rest of the epistle...

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

The simple truth is the battle with sin and the desire to sin is a lifelong challenge. The affirmation of "being born again" by grace through faith allows us through the agency of the Holy Spirit to in fact "say no" to sin. But unfortunately and sadly we often still do not and thus must maintain a heart of repentence daily.

The simple truth is as believers, we have been given a new heart; we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and these things affect everything that we do. Anyone who can wake up, and say "Today I sin!" does not know Christ, and is not saved.

 

[HankD]

Don't forget the rest of the epistle...

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

The simple truth is as believers, we have been given a new heart; we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and these things affect everything that we do. Anyone who can wake up, and say "Today I sin!" does not know Christ, and is not saved.

While I agree that there is a definite possibility that a person who wakes up one morning and makes a commitment to sin is not saved.

However, only God knows the heart and we CAN grieve and quench the Holy Spirit which indwells us as believers. We need a balanced approach.

If one of God's children willingly commits sin there is a consequence:

Revelation 2

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.​

Sin in the Christian requires chastisement then repentance or it's consequence - physical death.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.​

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

If neither is the outcome then as Hebrews 12:8 indicates that person is not a child of God.

But sin does happen in our assemblies and is happening more and more in these last days as the spirit of Jezebel works in our churches.

IMO, You are right to warn but not to summarily condemn.

The point is that we are not to be white robed pharisees:

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.​

but white robed physicians to our sinning brethren:

Mercy first then judgment (to be left to God).

James 5

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.​

James 4

11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?​

Obviously, after the counsel of the brethren and the church with no positive result the erring one is to be put out of the assembly to protect the Body of Christ and to shame him/her into a change of mind.​

Brother Havensdad FWIW, I believe you to have a heart for the church(es) but need a little compassion in the direction of rescuing those who stray or are unregenerate in our churches.​

Perhaps you have that compassion but it doesn't show by your posts.​

With God if all things are possible, He can transform tares into wheat and use us as His instruments.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

People here are still defining repentance as turning from sin, but that is clearly not the definition of repentance, as it would show God himself a sinner.

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

If repentence means turning from sin, then it would be difficult to believe that Samson was saved. His whole life was marked by sin. But we know Samson was saved, he was named among those in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews chapter 11.

Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

No one could say Samson lived a holy life, yet he had faith in God and was saved.

Repentance means to turn from unbelief, to trust and rely on Jesus for salvation and not one's own righteousness. We see that in Matthew 7.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What did these people claim as a basis of salvation? Their own works. They called Jesus Lord, they believed he was the Son of God, and did works in his name. But they never recognized themselves as lost sinners and trusted upon Jesus to save them from their sins. This is repentance, to realize you are not good enough to save yourself and turn to Christ.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Was the Pharisee a more righteous man than the publican? Yes. He without doubt kept the law much better than the publican. But he believed himself righteous while the publican confessed he was a sinner and relied upon and trusted in God's mercy.

Jesus also warned those who believed themselves righteous in Luke 13.

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

These people believed themselves righteous and looked with contempt upon these men who were killed by Pilate, and those who were killed when a tower fell. They believed these unfortunate people to be great sinners whom God punished. Jesus told them they need to repent and realize they too were sinners in danger of perishing. Notice that he asked them if they supposed or thought these unfortunate people to be greater sinners than others. This is what they needed to repent of, believing themselves righteous.

 

[Havensdad]

Repentance is indeed turning from sin. Jesus said "unless you repent, you will perish" to point out to these men, that they were likewise sinners, and needed to repent of their former lifestyle.

What did Paul command? Just a mental belief in Jesus? NO> He commanded that people turn from their former lifestyle, beliefs, idolatry, and immorality, and turn to Christ.

Act 14:15 "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.

Notice, there is no question in Paul's mind. The "good news" (gospel) is not just acceptance of Jesus. The gospel MUST include a turning away, first, from those things which you believed and did before. The actions of these people, demonstrated that, though they rejoiced, they had not yet truly repented, and been saved.

The Bible says

1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

This word evident, means "glaring" or "shining." Those who are truly born of God, there life will show undeniable evidence of this, in a lifestyle categorized by righteousness.

To say otherwise, does nothing but give the unregenerate a false sense of security. To give hope to a corpse, who still needs to come to the living God.

 

[Winman]

Repentance is indeed turning from sin. Jesus said "unless you repent, you will perish" to point out to these men, that they were likewise sinners, and needed to repent of their former lifestyle.

No, repentance is turning from the sin of believing ourselves righteous. Read again in the Luke 13 passage I showed, Jesus asked these persons if they supposed or thought that these men who perished were sinners "above all" in Galilee and Jersusalem. After he asked this question, he said, Nay (showing they were not any worse than other men), but, except ye repent (realize this is error on your part), ye shall also likewise perish.

You must understand in Jesus's day that the Jews believed God showed favor to righteous persons and punished sinners. This is why the disciples were so amazed when Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved.

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

Notice verse 26 says the disciples were astonished out of measure. They had come to believe that wealth was a sign of God's favor. So, when Jesus told them that it would be nearly impossible for a rich man to be saved they asked "who then can be saved?".

And they believed that misfortune was a proof that a person was a wicked sinner. This is why they asked Jesus if the blind man was born blind because of his sin or his parent's sin.

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

And this was the attitude these people had in Luke 13, they believed that these persons whom Pilate had killed, and the 18 persons whom the tower fell on and killed must be terrible sinners whom God punished. Jesus corrected them and told them if they do not repent, that is, turn from the false belief they were righteous because they were fortunate, that they also would perish. He was not telling them to turn from sin, he was telling them to turn from believing themselves righteous.

Luke 18:Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

You see how Jesus told this parable to warn those who "trusted in themselves". These are people who believe themselves righteous. This is the sin a person must repent of to be saved. You must confess you are a sinner and turn to Christ and depend solely upon him to be saved.

 

[Winman]

To say otherwise, does nothing but give the unregenerate a false sense of security. To give hope to a corpse, who still needs to come to the living God.

You know you are contradicting your own doctrine here don't you? By your doctrine it is impossible for an unregenerate person to have faith.

You are saying an unregenerate person can believe in Jesus Christ, that he died on the cross for their sins, and believe they trust on Christ.

If this be true, then the only assurance a person could have would be to rely on their works.

Is this how you know yourself to be saved, by your works?

 

[olegig]

Repentance means to turn from unbelief, to trust and rely on Jesus for salvation and not one's own righteousness.

Finally a non-legalist approach to salvation. :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Repentance is indeed turning from sin

HD, then the only conclusion you can come to is God sinned when He made man, as Scripture says He repented.

 

[Havensdad]

HD, then the only conclusion you can come to is God sinned when He made man, as Scripture says He repented.

As I (hope!?) you know, that is a COMPLETELY different word! Just because we translate that OT, Hebrew word as "repent" does not mean, that a different word, in Greek, which we translate as "repent" as well, means the same thing.

I guess, by your logic, when I say "I gotta fly!" I mean I am going to take off like a bird?

BTW, in my Bible, God never repented...

Gen 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

 

[Winman]

As I (hope!?) you know, that is a COMPLETELY different word! Just because we translate that OT, Hebrew word as "repent" does not mean, that a different word, in Greek, which we translate as "repent" as well, means the same thing.

I guess, by your logic, when I say "I gotta fly!" I mean I am going to take off like a bird?

BTW, in my Bible, God never repented...

Gen 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

You are correct, repent does not mean to turn from sins, as God has no sin to turn from. And you are correct it is a different word in the NT being Greek. But repent in the NT does not mean turn from sin either.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If repent means a person must turn from all their sins, then how could Peter promise these Jews the gift of the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't you have to wait a lifetime to determine whether you truly turned from sin? And if a person must stop sinning to receive the Holy Spirit, doesn't this teach salvation through works?

No, Peter was telling them to turn from trusting in the law and to believe on Jesus Christ.

Repent means to change your mind, or to turn from a false belief.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Here Paul is telling the Greeks to turn from the belief (not to think) that God is a graven image or idol made by men's hands.

Is it a sin to trust in an idol? Yes. Is it a sin to trust in one's own righteousness? Yes. But we are never told that we must turn from all sin to be saved. If so, not one person would ever be saved, because none of us ever turns from sin 100% in our life. In fact, the scriptures say that if we say we have no sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[HankD]

Hi all.

For the record:
the word repent in koine Greek is metanoio.

From Strong's:
3340 metanoe,w

metanoeo {met-an-o-eh'-o}

Meaning: ​

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent 2) to change one's mind for better.​

It comes from the combination of meta (change) and nous (mind).​

If we follow after the raw semantics of the word it simply means a change of mind and can, in its basic meaning, be used of both saint and sinner.​

It is however more than a change of mind like telling the waitress you changed your mind and now want corn instead of mustard greens with your hocks.​

It's more like when a Democrat defects to the Republican Party, you know there was a lot of soul searching and the person's thought processes were overhauled.​

Basically for the lost it means to have one's mind changed from the adamic way of thinking and to receive the mind of Christ (regeneration).​

For the wandering Christian it can mean to re-think one's attitude about personal sin, which should result in a renewed walk with God and to cease from sin and grieving the Spirit and quenching His power in his (the Christian's) life. Otherwise God will chastise and/or judge (but not with the condemning judgment of the world) His child.​

1 Corinthians 11

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

That was a good post Hank. :thumbsup:

In the NT you will often see the word repent relating to thinking, not doing.

Acts 17:Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

In all of these passages repentance means to change one's attitude or belief, to change one's thinking. In Acts 17 Paul says we should not think of God as a graven image or idol. In Luke 13 Jesus told these listeners that they needed to turn from believing these unfortunate persons who died were worse sinners than others. In Matthew 3 John the Baptist told the Pharisees and Sadducees that they must turn from believing they were saved simply because they were the descendants of Abraham. So, repentance is a change of attitude or belief.