Repentance for Salvation?

[The Archangel]

But we are never told that we must turn from all sin to be saved.

So, then, are you saying you get to keep some of your favorite sins and keep on doing them? Is that what you are saying?!

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

So, then, are you saying you get to keep some of your favorite sins and keep on doing them? Is that what you are saying?!

The Archangel

That is not what I am saying whatsoever. The scriptures are clear that we are to depart from iniquity.

2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


It is one thing to want to depart from iniquity, it is quite another thing to accomplish it. Let's say you have an alcoholic come into church and hears the gospel. They realize they are a sinner and receive Jesus as their saviour. Does this mean they can never have another drink again? Does their addiction suddenly disappear? I knew a man who used to drink heavily, after receiving Christ he said he never had the urge to drink again, but this is exceptional, most will struggle overcoming a sin like this.

What I am saying is that if you have to promise to never sin again, or even to say that you will instantly hate all sin before you can be saved, then I doubt anyone anywhere is saved.

Gluttony is a sin. If someone gets saved, do they have to promise never to overeat again? If they eat too much which is their habit, are they lost? Must they hate food?

Have you turned from sin 100%? Are there known sins you continue in?

 

[Havensdad]

That is not what I am saying whatsoever. The scriptures are clear that we are to depart from iniquity.

2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


It is one thing to want to depart from iniquity, it is quite another thing to accomplish it. Let's say you have an alcoholic come into church and hears the gospel. They realize they are a sinner and receive Jesus as their saviour. Does this mean they can never have another drink again? Does their addiction suddenly disappear? I knew a man who used to drink heavily, after receiving Christ he said he never had the urge to drink again, but this is exceptional, most will struggle overcoming a sin like this.

No, but they will instantly turn from it. They will no longer desire to drink, although sin, that dwells in them (the old man) very well might still desire it, and cause the man to fall.

What I am saying is that if you have to promise to never sin again, or even to say that you will instantly hate all sin before you can be saved, then I doubt anyone anywhere is saved.

I can honestly, and without reservation, say that I have felt guilt, shame, and hatred for every sin I knowingly committed since I became a Christian.

Repentance is not "promising not to sin." It's letting go of sin, and making a conscious decision to transfer ownership of your life to Christ. This is saving faith: anything less, is nothing more than lip service.

Gluttony is a sin. If someone gets saved, do they have to promise never to overeat again? If they eat too much which is their habit, are they lost? Must they hate food?

They will desire to turn from every thing they do, that displeases their (our) Lord. If they do not, they do not have the inwelling Spirit, which Christ promised would guide us into all truth, nor the the "heart of flesh" which was promised us.

Have you turned from sin 100%? Are there known sins you continue in?

Turning from sin (repentance) is not the same as to stop sinning. One is a decision to transfer ownership, the other is an action.

 

[Havensdad]

Read these passages, in light of the "Cheap Grace" gospel, perpetuated by so many...

2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Hmm. People in the last day, who will profess to know God, yet will deny the changing power of the gospel, and will engage willfully in all sorts of sinful behavior (and encourage others to do so!)...

 

[Winman]

Read these passages, in light of the "Cheap Grace" gospel, perpetuated by so many...

2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Hmm. People in the last day, who will profess to know God, yet will deny the changing power of the gospel, and will engage willfully in all sorts of sinful behavior (and encourage others to do so!)...

Amazing, you interpret the verse to say exactly the opposite of what it really says. Verse 5 says they have "the appearance of godliness". In other words, these people will seem to be very moral and godly people. These are not people who appear to be willfully engaging in sin, no, just the opposite, most will probably believe them very religious and moral from appearances.

 

[Havensdad]

Amazing, you interpret the verse to say exactly the opposite of what it really says. Verse 5 says they have "the appearance of godliness". In other words, these people will seem to be very moral and godly people. These are not people who appear to be willfully engaging in sin, no, just the opposite, most will probably believe them very religious and moral from appearances.

WHAT??! Brother, are you capable of reading? How are people who are openly "disobedient to parents" "Slanderous" (gossips) and "without self control" not "appear{ing}" to openly engage in sin?

I have to say, you must be young. Your reading skills have been heavily influenced by reader response, post modern philosophy.

In fact, your own interpretation disproves itself. If the "appearance" of godliness, is to not engage in open sin, this would apply to both the true and the false.

No, these are those, who, like in Matthew 7, say "God I have done all these miraculous ministerial works in your name" yet Jesus will say "Depart from me, you who have no law".

 

[Winman]

WHAT??! Brother, are you capable of reading? How are people who are openly "disobedient to parents" "Slanderous" (gossips) and "without self control" not "appear{ing}" to openly engage in sin?

I have to say, you must be young. Your reading skills have been heavily influenced by reader response, post modern philosophy.

In fact, your own interpretation disproves itself. If the "appearance" of godliness, is to not engage in open sin, this would apply to both the true and the false.

No, these are those, who, like in Matthew 7, say "God I have done all these miraculous ministerial works in your name" yet Jesus will say "Depart from me, you who have no law".

I must be young? My oldest daughter was born May 12, 1976, exactly four months after you. I was saved and reading the scriptures regularly 11 years before you were born. If anybody is a proud upstart, it is you.

You did not read the whole passage, these are wolves in sheep's clothing it is talking about. Read the following verses.

2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

Here is what Matthew Henry said on this passage:

they will assume the form of godliness, to take away their reproach; but they will not submit to the power of it, to take away their sin. Observe here, (1.) Men may be very bad and wicked under a profession of religion; they may be lovers of themselves, etc., yet have a form of godliness. (2.) A form of godliness is a very different thing from the power of it; men may have the one and be wholly destitute of the other; yea, they deny it, at least practically in their lives. (3.) From such good Christians must withdraw themselves.

III. Here Paul warns Timothy to take heed of certain seducers, not only that he might not be drawn away by them himself, but that he might arm those who were under his charge against their seduction. 1. He shows how industrious they were to make proselytes (v. 6): they applied themselves to particular persons, visited them in their houses, not daring to appear openly; for those that do evil hate the light, Jn. 3:20. They were not forced into houses, as good Christians often were by persecution; but they of choice crept into houses, to insinuate themselves into the affections and good opinion of people, and so to draw them over to their party. And see what sort of people those were that they gained, and made proselytes of; they were such as were weak, silly women; and such as were wicked, laden with sins, and led away with divers lusts. A foolish head and a filthy heart make persons, especially women, an easy prey to seducers

Again, this is warning of false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing. To the eye they appear very religious and righteous, just as the Pharisees did, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Only an observant and discerning person will detect these false prophets. Outwardly they appear very good.

 

[quantumfaith]

Don't forget the rest of the epistle...

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,




The simple truth is as believers, we have been given a new heart; we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and these things affect everything that we do. Anyone who can wake up, and say "Today I sin!" does not know Christ, and is not saved.

I concur, there is not doubt that the presence of God in our lives impacts what we do, what we think etc. But does His presence in the life of believer override our nature and tendency to sin and rebel? Is sin not a struggle in your life? If so, remind yourself of the scripture you "zinged" me with. I John 2:4.

 

[webdog]

Read these passages, in light of the "Cheap Grace" gospel, perpetuated by so many...

2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Hmm. People in the last day, who will profess to know God, yet will deny the changing power of the gospel, and will engage willfully in all sorts of sinful behavior (and encourage others to do so!)...

This has nothing to do with the Free Grace (not cheap grace...how dare you put a price on our Savior's sacrifice!) soteriological position. Your hermeneutic is quite faulty lately, from MacArthur's book to now this.

 

[kyredneck]

That was a good post Hank. :thumbsup:...

I agree with you Winman; more good points made by Hank.

For the wandering Christian it can mean to re-think one's attitude about personal sin, which should result in a renewed walk with God and to cease from sin and grieving the Spirit and quenching His power in his (the Christian's) life. Otherwise God will chastise and/or judge (but not with the condemning judgment of the world) His child.

'To re-think one's attitude'; that's something I've done many times as a Christian.

 

[Havensdad]

This has nothing to do with the Free Grace (not cheap grace...how dare you put a price on our Savior's sacrifice!) soteriological position.

This has everything to do with it! And as far as putting a price...right back at ya. If you think a decision is a "price", then your decisional regeneration has already placed a price on it!

Your hermeneutic is quite faulty lately, from MacArthur's book to now this.

Funny how my "poor hermeneutic" regarding Macarthur, agrees with Macarthur's own interpretation of his statements, in the "question and answer" section. You just wish to take a brother's quote's out of context, and attack him. Sorry if I won;t go along with you.

 

[Winman]

No, but they will instantly turn from it. They will no longer desire to drink, although sin, that dwells in them (the old man) very well might still desire it, and cause the man to fall

Well, you've hit the nail on the head. When we receive Christ we now have two natures, the new nature that wants to obey God, and the old nature that wants to continue in sin. An alcoholic may sincerely desire to quit drinking, but another part of him still desires a drink. This is what I meant when I said that if we have to promise we will hate all sin to be saved I don't know of anybody who is truly saved.

I can honestly, and without reservation, say that I have felt guilt, shame, and hatred for every sin I knowingly committed since I became a Christian.

Well, I don't know if I can say this. Yes, deep in my heart I want to quit all sin to please God, but realistically there are sins I continue in. I drive down south several times a year, it is a long trip. I tell you, I cannot force myself to drive 65 MPH the whole trip. I usually drive between 70-75 MPH. Now, I know this is wrong, we are supposed to obey our authorities, but I know if I drove down tomorrow I am going to go faster than 65 MPH. What do I love? I love driving as fast as possible. Does it bother me because I know it is sin? Yes.

Santification is a lifetime process. We don't overcome all of our sin problems the instant we receive Christ.

Lately I have been using my cruise control on the highway, setting it at 65. So this does bother me. But if I had a long trip, I know for a certainty I will drive faster, I always do.

 

[olegig]

Under the system of the catholic church the men in the organization describe the sin and deem the measurement of sin.

For discussion purposes let us assume Macarthur's position is correct.
Under Macarthur's system who decides which sin and how much sin is put away before one can be considered fully under the Lordship?

What is the difference in saying one must do such-and-such to be saved, or in saying if one is saved then one will do such-and-such?

 

[Winman]

And another thing, if repentance means to quit all sin, and we must repent to be saved, then doesn't this make salvation merited?

I've heard people say things like, "I don't know if Joe is really saved, I see no fruit." I am sure you have heard things like this. Well, aren't we saying salvation is earned on merit? We are saying a person has to quit sinning to be saved.

I do not understand repentance to mean that. I understand repentance to be a turning from trusting in our own righteousness, and depending completely upon Jesus for salvation. It is a complete ceasing of all self effort to save oneself, it is resting upon what Jesus has done for us.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Notice in verse 18 Jesus intended this parable to those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous. And notice what the Pharisee claimed for salvation, his works! And the truth is, this Pharisee probably lived a far more righteous life than the publican. But the publican did not trust in his own righteousness and cast himself (trusted, depended upon, relied) on God's mercy.

This is the repentance John the Baptist and Jesus preached, to turn from trusting in our own righteousness. It was a heart attitude, not works.

Matt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

You see here how the people repented, they confessed they were sinners. They turned from believing themselves righteous.

 

[HankD]

I think we are all talking about the same thing but from a different point of view.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.​

Psalm 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?​

Who among us has made Jesus Lord of their life 24/7 365 days a year?​

I would if I could and it's the desire of my heart.​

I think we can all say that?​

The good example someone gave is the State speed limit.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.​

1 Peter 2

13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.​

Going 1 MPH over the speed limit technically makes me an evildoer in the eyes of God (according to His word) as well as the Governor of the State of Washington, and her (Christine Gregoire) duly authorized "ministers", the State Police, putting myself and others at a greater risk of death (small as it may be) by my disobedience.​

A rhetorical question:
Is Jesus Lord of my life according to 1 Peter 2:13-14 and Romans 13:1-5 when I break the State speed limit?​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

What is the difference in saying one must do such-and-such to be saved, or in saying if one is saved then one will do such-and-such?

Great question, and there is a difference I think I can explain by analogy.

When the blind, lame, or lepers came to Jesus, were they able to heal themselves? No. Yet they could come and did.

Matt 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

I've said before that this is an amazing verse. Jesus moved around a lot, it was no easy task finding him, it would seem almost impossible that the blind and lame could come to him, but they found a way.

Did they have to be healed before they could come? No. But they did have faith. They had heard of Jesus miraculously healing people and believed if they could manage to get to him, he would heal them too.

And this is how it is with salvation as well, we cannot heal our sin problem. We are very much like a blind or lame person. But if we come to Christ just as we are, he heals us. Now we are able to perform, as they could now see or walk.

To repent means to realize you are sick with sin.

Matt 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

You are not going to come to Jesus for spiritual healing unless you first realize you are a sinner. You cannot heal yourself just as the blind and lame could not heal themselves. Jesus is the only one who can heal us.

So, to teach a person must quit sin to be saved is unscriptural. It is impossible to heal ourselves, we must come to Jesus and rely upon him to save us.

But it is true we must realize we are sinners before we will come to Jesus, and you must have a desire to be healed by him.

 

[Havensdad]

And another thing, if repentance means to quit all sin, and we must repent to be saved, then doesn't this make salvation merited?

This is a moot point, since no one is saying this. Repentance is to turn from sin, not quit it.

Think of a crack addict. At first they enjoy the drug without reservation. At some point, they decide they no longer wish to be a drug addict. At this point, they are "turning" from the sin of drug use. If it is a true turning, it will have results (a continual effort to try to avoid wrong behavior); if it is not a true turning, but just emotionalism, it will not have an affect.

Biblical repentance (in terms of salvation) is turning from the world, and sin in general, to Christ. It is letting go of self, and taking hold of Christ. You cannot have true saving faith in Christ, while willfully holding on to your old life. This is not faith: it is nothing but emotionalism, and lip service.

 

[olegig]

Originally Posted by Winman
And another thing, if repentance means to quit all sin, and we must repent to be saved, then doesn't this make salvation merited?

This is a moot point, since no one is saying this. Repentance is to turn from sin, not quit it.

Think of a crack addict. At first they enjoy the drug without reservation. At some point, they decide they no longer wish to be a drug addict. At this point, they are "turning" from the sin of drug use. If it is a true turning, it will have results (a continual effort to try to avoid wrong behavior); if it is not a true turning, but just emotionalism, it will not have an affect.

Biblical repentance (in terms of salvation) is turning from the world, and sin in general, to Christ. It is letting go of self, and taking hold of Christ. You cannot have true saving faith in Christ, while willfully holding on to your old life. This is not faith: it is nothing but emotionalism, and lip service.

But why do I have the feeling that if he did not turn from the drug addiction, you would deem him still lost?
It seems your 'turning from sin' does require an action.

It still seems Macarthur's position requires that a true conversion is shown by an action; therefore he is saying an action is needed for there to be a true conversion.
IMO this is backloading the gospel and has the feel of a hair tick crawling on my back.

 

[Havensdad]

But why do I have the feeling that if he did not turn from the drug addiction, you would deem him still lost?
It seems your 'turning from sin' does require an action.

It still seems Macarthur's position requires that a true conversion is shown by an action; therefore he is saying an action is needed for there to be a true conversion.
IMO this is backloading the gospel and has the feel of a hair tick crawling on my back.

Not just Macarthur's: Jesus' position also required that true repentance results in action. According to scripture, those who have been saved will be "shining" "obvious" and clear to all.

This is not about "quitting all sin"; it is about an attitude of faith, which must, by it's very definition of being faith, desire to please the object of that faith, namely Christ.

No one would even think of using such silly logic, which is used by some, in day to day situations. If I said I loved my wife, but constantly cheated on her, without reservation, you would call me a liar. If I said I loved my children, but beat them incessantly, you would deny my obviously false statement.

Even mundane things adhere to this basic idea. If I say I have faith in my wife, but I am constantly checking her cell phone records, and checking up on her in general, I do not really have faith.

This is fundamental. Repentance and faith is not just words. And this is how some would like to style it. A profession of faith is absolutely without merit, unless the actions of that person show it to be a true faith. Saying Jesus is Lord, or savior, is worthless, unless one truly believes in Christ, trusts in Christ, and therefore, follows Christ.

I can call myself an astronaut. But if I have never been to space, I am nothing but a fraud. I can call myself a baker; but if I have never turned on an oven, mixed dough, and made the most basic of baked goods, I am doing nothing but playing pretend.

 

[Winman]

I agree with what you wrote there Havensdad, if a man says he loves his wife but constantly cheats he is a liar. I still see it a little differently than you. The passage in Matthew 7 is very interesting.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


We all know verses 21-23 where people profess to know and follow Christ, but Jesus said he never knew them. But verses 24-27 are connected to this by the word "therefore". In verse 24 Jesus says those that hear his sayings and doeth them shall be like a wise man who built his house on a rock.

Is Jesus talking about works here? I don't think so. He is talking about the foundation of a house. The foundation supports the house. Jesus is our foundation, it is he that saves us and supports us when we trust on him.

Those in verses 21-22 were doing works, this was their claim to salvation. But they lacked the foundation, Jesus.

When the people came to Jesus and asked what works they should do to work the works of God, Jesus told them one thing, to believe on him.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Reforming your life does not save you. You can turn from sins, you can read the bible everyday and go to church everytime the door is open, but unless you trust on Christ to save you from your sins they will not do you a bit of good. You must have Jesus as your foundation, always depending on him and not ourselves.

When you accept Christ, the Holy Spirit comes into you, you are a new creature. A person who has accepted Christ should have a new will to obey Jesus. This should come naturally, not something you have to tell yourself to do. I know for myself that I do not enjoy sin at all, it makes me very uncomfortable and unhappy. Many things that others enjoy I do not. I still sin, but I do like it when I do. This is the change that the Holy Spirit itself makes in the heart of a believer.