• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Shroud of Turin

Status
Not open for further replies.

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well, I've gotton down on my knees while praying with my Bible open in front of me. Was I worshiping my Bible as an idol? No - God knows my heart as he knows the heart of everyone.

If you were bowing to your Bible then yes, you were worshipping your Bible. I've bowed in front of my bed and in front of a chair and here is a picture of me bowing before my congregation when my husband was ordained:

In none of the instances were the item I was bowing to meant anything other than a convenient place to bow. Now if I bowed at the chair thinking it was special and I was bowing at that particular chair because of it being special, then I am absolutely worshipping it.

If I go before my elderly mother, bow down and kiss her, does that sound like worship? Well, it might to someone who doesn't understand my relationship to my her.

If you think she has any special powers, then absolutely you'd be worshipping her. But maybe you bow down because she cannot get up. That's quite different than bowing down and kissing....a piece of wood.
 

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
Well, I've gotton down on my knees while praying with my Bible open in front of me. Was I worshiping my Bible as an idol? No - God knows my heart as he knows the heart of everyone.

This example is not like annsni's example. You are bowing before God in prayer and you just happen to have a Bible in your hand. The focal point is God.

The other example was bowing before a piece of wood and kissing the wood. The focal point is the wood.
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
Anything that comes between God and us is an idol. Anything means anything. Icons, relics, whatever. there is so much stuff within the Catholic church that is set up between man and God...

Idols can be anything - money, sex, success, power - you name it. The pursuit of worldly posessions come between God and man, and are thus, an impedement. However, what if that "stuff wihitin the catholic church..." actually brings one closer to God? They would no longer come between that individual and God would they?


... priests, "saints", rituals, baptism, confession, the pope. Every one of those are wrong and detract from that which we are to have with our Heavenly Father.

Come on Trotter, you know very well there is scriptural backing for every one of those as I'm sure you've had to address them before. It is simply your interpretation and your opinion that "Every one of those [Catholic thingies] are wrong and detract from that which we are to have with our Heavenly Father." Why is your interpretation or opinion of “…what we are to have with our Heavenly Father” less infallible than Lori's, or mine, or someone in a Baptist church down the road from you? After all, you (and others here) are presenting your opinions/beliefs as imbued with some kind of sacred authority as if delivered to you from on high. This is sanctimonious pap in the extreme!

† Peace †
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
This example is not like annsni's example. You are bowing before God in prayer and you just happen to have a Bible in your hand. The focal point is God. The other example was bowing before a piece of wood and kissing the wood. The focal point is the wood

Bingo! And how do you know that the focal point of that Mass (or whatever it was) was NOT God as well? Many here are assuming that is wasn't. Again that doesn't make it so.
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
If you were bowing to your Bible then yes, you were worshipping your Bible. I've bowed in front of my bed and in front of a chair and here is a picture of me bowing before my congregation when my husband was ordained:

In none of the instances were the item I was bowing to meant anything other than a convenient place to bow. Now if I bowed at the chair thinking it was special and I was bowing at that particular chair because of it being special, then I am absolutely worshipping it.

If you think she has any special powers, then absolutely you'd be worshipping her. But maybe you bow down because she cannot get up. That's quite different than bowing down and kissing....a piece of wood.

Precisely - it's all about intent! Now, who knows the state of your heart better than God - is it me a complete stranger? What if I were to flat out accuse you of idolatry for bowing at your hubby's ordination? Would that matter to you? No - because you know that the opposite is true as does God. God and God ALONE knows if one is worshiping a piece of wood or not. I think people here often presume too much power and authority with such accusations.

† Peace †
 

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
Bingo! And how do you know that the focal point of that Mass (or whatever it was) was NOT God as well? Many here are assuming that is wasn't. Again that doesn't make it so.

Er....how do I know? Because they are kissing and venerating a piece of wood. It doesn't matter where their heart lies. They may actually be Christians.

But....

...they are exalting a physical icon - adoring it, kissing it. Objects are not to be venerated. They can be utilized like singing from a hymnbook or drinking from a Lord's Supper glass - but kissing an object bestows your adoration of it.


I don't know what you are looking for here.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bingo! And how do you know that the focal point of that Mass (or whatever it was) was NOT God as well? Many here are assuming that is wasn't. Again that doesn't make it so.

Let's take a look at the whole of the quote that I found (albiet on Wiki but there is support to back up what it said):

Then a chair is placed for the bishop in Golgotha behind the [liturgical] Cross, which is now standing; the bishop duly takes his seat in the chair, and a table covered with a linen cloth is placed before him; the deacons stand round the table, and a silver-gilt casket is brought in which is the holy wood of the Cross. The casket is opened and [the wood] is taken out, and both the wood of the Cross and the title are placed upon the table. Now, when it has been put upon the table, the bishop, as he sits, holds the extremities of the sacred wood firmly in his hands, while the deacons who stand around guard it. It is guarded thus because the custom is that the people, both faithful and catechumens, come one by one and, bowing down at the table, kiss the sacred wood and pass through. And because, I know not when, some one is said to have bitten off and stolen a portion of the sacred wood, it is thus guarded by the deacons who stand around, lest any one approaching should venture to do so again. And as all the people pass by one by one, all bowing themselves, they touch the Cross and the title, first with their foreheads and then with their eyes; then they kiss the Cross and pass through, but none lays his hand upon it to touch it. When they have kissed the Cross and have passed through, a deacon stands holding the ring of Solomon and the horn from which the kings were anointed; they kiss the horn also and gaze at the ring...[8]

[8]M.L. McClure and C. L. Feltoe, ed. and trans.The Pilgrimage of Etheria, Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, London,(1919)
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Cross

Please tell me that is it God who is worshipped here.
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
Er....how do I know? Because they are kissing and venerating a piece of wood. It doesn't matter where their heart lies. They may actually be Christians.

This is truly an amazing statement.

[
But..they are exalting a physical icon - adoring it, kissing it. Objects are not to be venerated. They can be utilized like singing from a hymnbook or drinking from a Lord's Supper glass - but kissing an object bestows your adoration of it.

I adore my saintly dead grandmother. By that logic if I kiss her picture I'm an idolater. What about my wife - I adore her - if I kiss her hand I am an idolater. So, intent matters not, hmmm.?

[
I don't know what you are looking for here.

I'm looking for a little intellectual honesty.

† Peace †
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is truly an amazing statement.



I adore my saintly dead grandmother. By that logic if I kiss her picture I'm an idolater. What about my wife - I adore her - if I kiss her hand I am an idolater. So, intent matters not, hmmm.?



I'm looking for a little intellectual honesty.

† Peace †

So show me in Scripture where we are to bow to an object and honor it (although what I read about things that the Catholic church does with icons, it's much more than honor - it's worship and veneration). I'd like to see it.
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
So show me in Scripture where we are to bow to an object and honor it (although what I read about things that the Catholic church does with icons, it's much more than honor - it's worship and veneration). I'd like to see it.

I think that you probably know by now that I don't hold to Sola Scriptura.
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
Let's take a look at the whole of the quote that I found (albiet on Wiki but there is support to back up what it said):


from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Cross

Please tell me that is it God who is worshipped here.

Actually, I've read the entire diary of Egeria and her description of how the 4th century Church in Jerusalem worshiped throughout the liturgical and - yes - I do believe they were worshipping God. This should be a wake-up call to those of you who are bashing the Catholic liturgy.

† Peace †
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think that you probably know by now that I don't hold to Sola Scriptura.

Which then poses quite a large problem does it not? So there is inspiration and additional insight from God elsewhere other than Scripture? Can you show me anywhere that God approves bowing down to objects and honoring them?
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Actually, I've read the entire diary of Egeria and her description of how the 4th century Church in Jerusalem worshiped throughout the liturgical and - yes - I do believe they were worshipping God. This should be a wake-up call to those of you who are bashing the Catholic liturgy.

† Peace †

You mean bashing idol worship? Yes, even Jesus Christ Himself would bash idol worship.
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
Which then poses quite a large problem does it not?

Not for me.

So there is inspiration and additional insight from God elsewhere other than Scripture?

Yes - the Canon of the New Testament!


Can you show me anywhere that God approves bowing down to objects and honoring them?

No - because, in my scenarios at least, that is NOT what is taking place. The honor goes to the person not the object. When you recite the pledge of allegiance do you place your hand over your heart - if so, what does that gesture imply?

† Peace †
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes - the Canon of the New Testament!

So you say the New Testament is not Scripture? Wow. I'd like to know what your pastor would have to say.

No - because, in my scenarios at least, that is NOT what is taking place. The honor goes to the person not the object. When you recite the pledge of allegiance do you place your hand over your heart - if so, what does that gesture imply?

I'm asking for a source where God condones, commands, rewards someone who is bowing to an object as the object being the honored thing. The pledge of allegiance is totally different. Ask me to bow and kiss it? I'd rather move to the Netherlands.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
So you say the New Testament is not Scripture? Wow. I'd like to know what your pastor would have to say.



I'm asking for a source where God condones, commands, rewards someone who is bowing to an object as the object being the honored thing. The pledge of allegiance is totally different. Ask me to bow and kiss it? I'd rather move to the Netherlands.

His argument will be that the Canon of the NT is based on Apostolic Tradition. That in the exception of 2 verses all references to scripture in the NT refers to the Old testiment and specifically the LXX. So the NT is scripture in that it is Apostolic tradition. However, it is reliant on tradition already in placed. Though Canon wasn't defined until the 400 we can determine a tradition of "canonisity" based on the accepted practice of all churches to be inclusive what books were considered authoritative for the NT. That is my guess anyway.
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
So you say the New Testament is not Scripture? Wow. I'd like to know what your pastor would have to say.

Here's what you said...

So there is inspiration and additional insight from God elsewhere other than Scripture?

The last time I looked the canon of the New Testament was NOT in scripture. So from whence did it come? Who told you which books where inspired and should be included in the canon? It sure wasn't scripture.

I'm asking for a source where God condones, commands, rewards someone who is bowing to an object as the object being the honored thing. The pledge of allegiance is totally different. Ask me to bow and kiss it? I'd rather move to the Netherlands.

I'm asking you where God is telling us that we cannot do this IF it is not idol worship? How is the pledge of allegiance different? Are you not showing our founding fathers and those who have died in defense of liberty veneration and honor?
 

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
This is truly an amazing statement.

Thank you. I thought it quite good myself. :flower:

So you believe that as long as your heart is in the right place that you can do anything you wish? Because that is what you are saying.

As long as your heart is in the right place you can venerate splinters of wood as if they are holy?

Nope. Sorry.



I adore my saintly dead grandmother. By that logic if I kiss her picture I'm an idolater. What about my wife - I adore her - if I kiss her hand I am an idolater. So, intent matters not, hmmm.?

You are just being silly here. I hope you don't consider your wife an object. And I know that you are not going to bring your departed grandmother's picture to the altar at church and start kissing it during the worship service as a sign of devotion to God.

That's what we are talking about. Kissing objects, focus on objects, adoring and venerating objects in place of worshipping God.

You know that.



I'm looking for a little intellectual honesty.

And I gave you quite a bit. :flower: :flower:

Peace to you. :type:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Prove that God exists via the scientific method. There is no valid scientific proof that God exists, yet you believe in Him.
Yes I believe in God. I believe in God by faith. It doesn't take science to believe in God. And that is the argument against evolution. There are limitations to science. One of them is that science cannot enter into the realm of the supernatural or it ceases to be science. It cannot deal with the origin of the universe. If it does it ceases to be science and has entered into the field of faith. It takes more faith to believe this world was created via a big bang than it was through a loving caring Almighty God.

I don't have to prove that God exists.
However the atheist must prove that God doesn't exist. To do so he cannot. One cannot prove a universal negative.

I can believe what ever I want. I can assert my belief.
If you want to disprove my believe then the onus is on you to prove me wrong. Therefore to prove Calvin wrong you must come up with the proof. However ridiculous Calvin's statement may seem to you, if you can't prove him wrong his statement stands.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top