The Shroud of Turin

[annsni]

True. However, scripture does not preclude the practice in the sense of this topic. (I.e. not idolatry) In addition to ThinkingStuff's examples, there are several places where scripture does show bowing/kneeling as an accepted practice.

"In an interesting passage the verb is used both of "worship" and of "bowing" without an attitude of worship. After Naaman’s healing and his conversion to the monotheistic worship of the Lord (II Kgs 5:17), the Syrian officer asked Elisha, "In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master (i.e. the king) goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my arm, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter" (II Kgs 5:18, RSV). Elisha did not object and said, "Go in peace."

A problem passage is Gen 47:31 where Jacob before dying "bowed himself upon the head of the bed (mitta)." The LXX, however, reads, "And Israel worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff"’ rendering the consonants as matteh "staff." The Syriac and Itala agree; Heb 11:21 cites the LXX. In this context Speiser suggests, "The term ‘to bow low’ need not signify here anything more than a gesture of mute appreciation...." Cf. also I Kgs 1:47 where the dying David bows down in bed."

(http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/prostration_heb.aspx)

‡ Peace ‡

None of these were bowing before an object with the object the reason to bow. I'm still waiting to see any positive proof of bowing before an object in honor being acceptable to the Lord.

 

[annsni]

You have an interesting background. Here' mine.

Born into a Southern Baptist family (Scotch/Irish) – North Florida

Age 7 – forced into joining Faith Baptist Church – went to church every Wednesday night and Sunday. I did regular Sunday school, participated in the RA’s, vacation bible school, revivals, etc.

There I was taught that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, the Pope was the anti-Christ, yada-yada, and I believed all of it. (And why wouldn’t I?)

Personal experience - I have a few Catholic colleagues with whom I have had many discussions about their religious beliefs over the years. I've done my own research into the history of the Church. I no longer believe my Baptist indoctrination about the Catholic Church. (How can I?)

There you have it.

‡ Peace ‡

So were you forced into becoming a Christian? If so - I hate to tell you .... that doesn't work.

So with what you wrote, you have no first-hand knowledge of the Catholic church - only what you read and hearsay. Gotcha.

 

[annsni]

didn't people bow before the ark of the covenant. And isnt that an object? And doesn't it have engraving of Seraphim on the lid? And wasn't it made by the hands of a specific Hebrew in Moses' camp? Just curious.

I might not be looking right but I cannot see any Scripture where anyone bowed before the Ark.

However, if anyone did, the only thing that I can say is that it was God's seat in the tabernacle/temple so His presence was there.

But I can't find reference to bowing before the Ark.

 

[Revmitchell]

Anyone who uses the word " forced" in reference to being taken to church as a child shows their true colors.


He was "forced" to go to a Baptist church. Indoctrinated in teachings about Catholics. And now defends them and uses their sources.

I do not believe he is a Baptist. Just another Catholic acting dishonestly on a Baptist board.

 

[annsni]

Anyone who uses the word " forced" in reference to being taken to church as a child shows their true colors.


He was "forced" to go to a Baptist church. Indoctrinated in teachings about Catholics. And now defends them and uses their sources.

I do not believe he is a Baptist. Just another Catholic acting dishonestly on a Baptist board.

I questioned him quite a bit in the early days of him posting here and he insists he's a Baptist in good standing.

However, his words betray him.

If one is forced to be baptized, they are not saved. I don't know if he ever had a saving point in his life since then but if he's counting on that baptism as salvation, then I have bad news for him.

 

[quantumfaith]

Anyone who uses the word " forced" in reference to being taken to church as a child shows their true colors.


He was "forced" to go to a Baptist church. Indoctrinated in teachings about Catholics. And now defends them and uses their sources.

I do not believe he is a Baptist. Just another Catholic acting dishonestly on a Baptist board.

Let me get this straight. As a child growing up you ALWAYS WANTED to go to church, your parents never had to exercise their parental rights and responsibilites and "take" you (force) to church, if so, indeed you are special.
"Indoctrinated", how disingenous, I believe he said he studied, vast difference. Debate Billy, honestly with civility and intellectual honesty, then perhaps all can learn.

 

[BillySunday1935]

None of these were bowing before an object with the object the reason to bow. I'm still waiting to see any positive proof of bowing before an object in honor being acceptable to the Lord.

That's because Catholics are not bowing before an object with the object the reason to bow. How long does it take for that to sink in? You seriously want me to provide scripture backing up a position that no one has espoused? Nah...

 

[BillySunday1935]

So were you forced into becoming a Christian? If so - I hate to tell you .... that doesn't work.

So with what you wrote, you have no first-hand knowledge of the Catholic church - only what you read and hearsay. Gotcha.

Ohhh yeeeaaaaa...

 

[BillySunday1935]

Anyone who uses the word " forced" in reference to being taken to church as a child shows their true colors.


He was "forced" to go to a Baptist church. Indoctrinated in teachings about Catholics. And now defends them and uses their sources.

No sir - I was forced under threat to accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior at the age of seven. I actually accepted God on my own as an adult. But the pain is still present. I thank God that such an event did not turn me completely away from Him.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I might not be looking right but I cannot see any Scripture where anyone bowed before the Ark.

However, if anyone did, the only thing that I can say is that it was God's seat in the tabernacle/temple so His presence was there.

But I can't find reference to bowing before the Ark.

All I can find is Psalm 99:5. I found this on a site supporting the veneration of icons and objects and this was their scriptural basis of claiming that Jews bowed before the Ark of the Covenant.

Exalt the Lord our God;
worship at his footstool!
Holy is he!

I would appreciate it if the poster who said that the Jews bowed before the Ark would supply the scripture passage.

 

[BillySunday1935]

What is simple is recognizing bad comparisons.

As usual, you do a drive by and completely ignore the point of the post. How sad...

 

[annsni]

All I can find is Psalm 99:5. I found this on a site supporting the veneration of icons and objects and this was their scriptural basis of claiming that Jews bowed before the Ark of the Covenant.

And since it's God's footstool, guess Who's on the footstool....

I would appreciate it if the poster who said that the Jews bowed before the Ark would supply the scripture passage.

Yeah, I actually wondered if this might be the one thing that was bowed to and I did a word search on "bow" in the Bible and nothing with anything about bowing to an object - even the Ark came up. But I might have missed something - it's entirely possible but I tried.

 

[annsni]

That's because Catholics are not bowing before an object with the object the reason to bow. How long does it take for that to sink in? You seriously want me to provide scripture backing up a position that no one has espoused? Nah...

If they are not bowing at an object with the object the reason to bow, why the great description of what is to be done at the sliver of wood from the cross that I posted so many posts back? Why kiss an icon? Because it is the object of your affection and thus the object of your worship.

I guess you haven't learned about worship in your church. That's sad.

 

[BillySunday1935]

The medical community does not use common dictionaries to define medical terms. That is foolishness.
Theologians do not use common dictionaries to define theological terms. That also is foolishness.

I thought you wanted academia. You are being foolish to demand a common dictionary and academia at the same time.

Well, I was thinking something along the lines of etymology. However, we both know why you don’t want to look at a common dictionary – you know that the results are not favorable. (We can look at language and word origins from academic sources if you like, but for now, indulge me)

From Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: \prā\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks
Date: 13th century
transitive verb
1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Can you not see that the intent or usage of the word “pray“ is seminal to its meaning? Can you not see how that makes your position untenable? I.e. Praying DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN WORSHIP. You’re demonstrably wrong on that.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

If they are not bowing at an object with the object the reason to bow, why the great description of what is to be done at the sliver of wood from the cross that I posted so many posts back? Why kiss an icon? Because it is the object of your affection and thus the object of your worship.

I guess you haven't learned about worship in your church. That's sad.

Try to pay attention and be a cut above...
THE OBJECT IS NOT BEING VENERATED - THE OBJECT IS A REMINDER OF THE PERSON TO WHOM HONOR/VENERATION IS BEING GIVEN. Got it? Good!:thumbsup:

 

[annsni]

Try to pay attention and be a cut above...
THE OBJECT IS NOT BEING VENERATED - THE OBJECT IS A REMINDER OF THE PERSON TO WHOM HONOR/VENERATION IS BEING GIVEN. Got it? Good!:thumbsup:

Oh yes, I always bow to the picture of my mother and kiss it. Got it.

However, you have not been Catholic, have you? You have not been taught by the Catholic church, have you? You are wrong.

 

[DHK]

Can you not see that the intent or usage of the word “pray“ is seminal to its meaning? Can you not see how that makes your position untenable? I.e. Praying DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN WORSHIP. You’re demonstrably wrong on that.

Peace!

You have just demonstrated why the medical community doesn't use a common dictionary to define medical terminology and why theologians don't use a common dictionary to define theological terms.

The Bible was written in Greek in the NT and in Hebrew in the OT, not in English. You gave an English etymology of the word. That does no good. You need to go to the Hebrew and Greek. Better yet you need to go to the context where the word is used. Prayer in the Bible is always addressed to God. That in itself, makes your point moot. In the Bible prayer is always worship. Your English dictionary in this discussion is worthless.

 

[BillySunday1935]

You have just demonstrated why the medical community doesn't use a common dictionary to define medical terminology and why theologians don't use a common dictionary to define theological terms.

The Bible was written in Greek in the NT and in Hebrew in the OT, not in English. You gave an English etymology of the word. That does no good. You need to go to the Hebrew and Greek. Better yet you need to go to the context where the word is used. Prayer in the Bible is always addressed to God. That in itself, makes your point moot. In the Bible prayer is always worship. Your English dictionary in this discussion is worthless.

Fine. Let's do it. But let's look at the Aramaic/Greek etymology of the word and not only from your sources.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Oh yes, I always bow to the picture of my mother and kiss it. Got it.

Well, Catholics are not asking you or me to bow to a picture of our mother and kiss it. But, on the other hand, Catholics are not accusing you of idolatry if you do.

However, you have not been Catholic, have you? You have not been taught by the Catholic church, have you? You are wrong.

Perhaps. But, I think that I can make up my own mind about this. It's not as if they have some conspiracy to hide what they REALLY believe from us poor uneducated and ignorant Baptists.

Peace!

 

[DHK]

Fine. Let's do it. But let's look at the Aramaic/Greek etymology of the word and not only from your sources.

Thayer's Lexicon

euchē
Thayer Definition:
1) a prayer to God
2) a vow
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2172
Citing in TDNT: 2:775, 279

Strong's Lexicon

εὐχή
euchē
yoo-khay'
From G2172; properly a wish, expressed as a petition to God, or in votive obligation: - prayer, vow.

(Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.