End Times - 4 Ways the World calls down wrath

[Eric B]

Lev 18 where God identifies a list that HAVE caused him to "end" a nation and that WILL cause him to do it in the future.

The assumption is that because "not all other sins are listed" there - we can notice the state of certain bell weather sins to see if in fact the nation is nearing a critical crisis point.

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you
27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled);
28 so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you.

29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.
30 'Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

God's clear and direct statements there - suggest that we should pay attention to that list.

The focus there was on the LAND spewing the people out. A particular land, in the Middle East, a particular context. But context is something that always gets ignored.
That was God's Holy Land, that He had set aside for His people. If other peoples obeyed His laws, they could stay; if not, they would be removed. If His own people diosobeyed, they would be removed too.

It has NOTHING to do with anywhere across whole oceans or anywhere else in the world, and neither the people who lived there before, nor the people who live there now. But just look at all the strife caused by applying this to America, it's colonzation and building, and now every disaster that occurs here.

As some sort of universal principle, it doesn't even work, as there are places that are far more immoral than America. (Holland {Amsterdam} is supposed to be really bad; Australia is known for its decadence and looseness, etc), and no one's saying they are being judged. It's all about America, and its numerous homegrown religious leaders or movements thinking they are the new Israelites or something.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Lev 18 where God identifies a list that HAVE caused him to "end" a nation and that WILL cause him to do it in the future.

The assumption is that because "not all other sins are listed" there - we can notice the state of certain bell weather sins to see if in fact the nation is nearing a critical crisis point.

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you
27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled);
28 so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you.

29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.
30 'Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

God's clear and direct statements there - suggest that we should pay attention to that list.

The focus there was on the LAND spewing the people out.

Turns out - the "Land" is not a sort-of-god.

Thus God provides the starting context - saying that HE is actually doing the casting out.

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.

In this case that "casting out" was in the form of God supernaturally enabling the Israelites to defeat even much larger forces - totally wiping out the inhabitants in war.

A particular land, in the Middle East, a particular context. But context is something that always gets ignored.
That was God's Holy Land, that He had set aside for His people. If other peoples obeyed His laws, they could stay; if not, they would be removed.

Not entirely true. God never gave Abraham anything in the land of Canaan and never gave anything to Isaac or to Jacob.

They bought small portions of land to bury their dead etc - but they were nomads in Canaan - never actually had any of it.

Israel entering Canaan by the millions was the first time that God allowed Israel to take the land. It is never called "God's Holy Land" at all - to that point in time.

In fact God tells Abraham he refuses to kick out the Canaanite because their time of probation is not up.

In the text - God lists the sins and states specifically that it is BECAUSE of those sins that he is expelling the nations. (non-Bible aware nations).

God never says "I have a Holy Land - these pagan nations violated my holy land so I have them destroyed - whereas this would all have been just fine had they lived on some other piece of dirt". No such argument is contained in all of scripture.

So Making it up - does not work. :godisgood:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ReformedBaptist]

So when you read the text and he talks about how he booted the Caananites for all the violations he listed there - you think of the Caananites as just "Israel"??

How does that work? Given that at the writing of Lev 18 - Israel has not even gotten to the land of Caanan yet.

in Christ,

Bob

No, Lev was written to Jews, not Cannanites.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It seems to me that we have at the end of time - four loud challenges to God's Word by World leaders that call for Him to make an end of all things.

In Leviticus 18 - God lists a number of "abominations" that will cause Him to "END" a nation - in fact He says in that chapter He will even end a pagan non-Bible-Aware nation for doing such things.

1. Abortion - killing children.
2. Gay rigths, gay marriage

Both of those abominations are listed in Lev 18 as causing the "end of nations".


Another pair of key actions that call upon God to end all things are these two main challenges to His Role as Creator - we see this mentioned in Rev 14:6-7.

1. Evolutionism taught as the right doctrine on origins - and God's Word, the Bible, declared to be wrong.
2. Editing or deleting the Sabbath commandment that memorializes God's role in Creation in a literal 7 day creation week.


These four factors are on their way to becoming "formalized" and "legislated" in governments world wide. As these four factors become more and more universal - the end must come just as scripture predicts. And so we should expect to see signs in nature that wrath is around the corner.

What are your thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

all sin calls God's judgement. BTW The sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Lev 18 where God identifies a list that HAVE caused him to "end" a nation and that WILL cause him to do it in the future.

The assumption is that because "not all other sins are listed" there - we can notice the state of certain bell weather sins to see if in fact the nation is nearing a critical crisis point.

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you
27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled);
28 so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you.

29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.
30 'Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

God's clear and direct statements there - suggest that we should pay attention to that list.

all sin calls God's judgement. .

So are you thinking that maybe God made a mistake by not adding to the Lev 18 list "they coveted so I tossed them out of the land - beware lest you covet and then I toss you out of the land as well"?

It is one of the first 5 books of the bible - maybe God was still pretty "new" at the job.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
GOD SAID -

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you
27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled);
28 so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you.

29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.
30 'Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

=====================================
God's clear and direct statements there - suggest that we should pay attention to that list.

No, Lev was written to Jews, not Cannanites.

So - God made a "mistake" by referencing those other nations --

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you
27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled);
28 so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you.

29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.

============

Maybe you should get a petition together and let Him know. :type:

On second thought -- maybe a closer look at what the text says would improve your conclusion.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Surely the Bible students on this section of the board have at least one other suggestion other than simply ignoring the details in the text that speak specifically of the pagan nations that suffered because of their violation of specific sins listed in Lev 18.

I find it hard to believe that a group that is supposed to affirm "sola scriptura testing" wants to go directly against the details found in the text of scripture on this point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

Turns out - the "Land" is not a sort-of-god.

Thus God provides the starting context - saying that HE is actually doing the casting out.

I was only reading it the way God put it in the text. Of course He was doing the casting and not the land itself. The point is, it was about that particular land, not North America.

Not entirely true. God never gave Abraham anything in the land of Canaan and never gave anything to Isaac or to Jacob.

They bought small portions of land to bury their dead etc - but they were nomads in Canaan - never actually had any of it.

Israel entering Canaan by the millions was the first time that God allowed Israel to take the land. It is never called "God's Holy Land" at all - to that point in time.

In fact God tells Abraham he refuses to kick out the Canaanite because their time of probation is not up.

Because that time was not ready according to God's plan (and foreknowledge) yet for the people to have a land of their own. They were still "wanderers".

In the text - God lists the sins and states specifically that it is BECAUSE of those sins that he is expelling the nations. (non-Bible aware nations).

God never says "I have a Holy Land - these pagan nations violated my holy land so I have them destroyed - whereas this would all have been just fine had they lived on some other piece of dirt". No such argument is contained in all of scripture.

So Making it up - does not work. :godisgood:

No, sin is not fine anywhere (and that's ANY sins, not just sexual sins), but God did not, and has not removed all people or nations that have committed those sins. God specifically says they "defiled the land" (it's right there in the text, but it seems reading the text is often considwered"making things up" to you), and this was because He had had a specific holy use plan for that land. It was where His sanctuary was to be. The point is, once again, this principle cannot be transferred to North America, many thousands of years later.

 

[BobRyan]

Not entirely true. God never gave Abraham anything in the land of Canaan and never gave anything to Isaac or to Jacob.

They bought small portions of land to bury their dead etc - but they were nomads in Canaan - never actually had any of it.

Israel entering Canaan by the millions was the first time that God allowed Israel to take the land. It is never called "God's Holy Land" at all - to that point in time.

In fact God tells Abraham he refuses to kick out the Canaanite because their time of probation is not up.

Thus this is not a case of "some sins the Holy Land does not like".

There is nothing in Lev 18 about 'the Holy land being defiled by certain sins".

Rather God says "THE MEN OF THAT LAND did all these things" -- well guess what - those men were pagans, so that is not another way to say "holy land".

Furthermore - God tells Abraham that HE cannot have any of that land for over 400 years because "the sin of the Amorite is not yet complete". It has to do with the probationary time for entire nations and how that time is used up.


So we get to pay attention to God's own list - when God says -

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you
27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled);
28 so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you.

29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.
30 'Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

God's clear and direct statements there - suggest that we should pay attention to that list.

All of the arguments that suggest that God would judge those pagan nations - ending them -- for doing those sins but will not stop nations on earth today for doing such things - is simply wishful thinking that goes directly against the text of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

God promised the land to Abraham first, before mentioning the prior inhabitants (Gen 13, 14).
Do you really think the Canaanites were the ONLY nations doing those things? Then, or for all times up to now? Or have you found some hard "400 year probation" rule somewhere in the scripture? So God was just doing His regular periodic house cleaning in the world, and it just so happened that this cleared the way for the Israelites.

The need for God to clear out those specific people to make way for His people is illustrated in the fact that the Sodomites threatened Abraham and Lot, and the other Canannites constantly influenced Israel with the religious practices.

 

[BobRyan]

God promised the land to Abraham first, before mentioning the prior inhabitants (Gen 13, 14).

God promises He will not give the land to Abraham or Isaac or Jacob... or Joseph or their children ... not for 400 years would Abraham's great great great great grandchildren ever inherit the land!!

Gen 15

13God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.[/b]
14"But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
15"As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
16"Then in the fourth generation they will return[/b] here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete."

Then in Gen 19 God wipes OUT -- Sodom and Gomorrah and the other "cities of the planes" - because they also crossed over the Lev 18 lines -- while living in that "not-Abraham" land.

Hint: He was not wiping them out "to make room for Abraham"

 

[Eric B]

Still, the promise of the land was made to Abraham first, and then he said it would be given to them once the sin of the Amorites reached a certain level. You're making it all about the Amorites, and trying to say that only certain sins cause God to eliminate a nation. What would have happened if they had not committed those sins? Then Israel would have never gained a land?
Of course, all of this involves God's foreknowledge, so it's moot to try to make it a single cause-and-effect process, like God acts only because of what these particular men do.

 

[BobRyan]

Still, the promise of the land was made to Abraham first, and then he said it would be given to them once the sin of the Amorites reached a certain level.

Actually the Caananites are in the land "first" then later Abraham is sent over there - to it.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Lev 18 where God identifies a list that HAVE caused him to "end" a nation and that WILL cause him to do it in the future.

The assumption is that because "not all other sins are listed" there - we can notice the state of certain bell weather sins to see if in fact the nation is nearing a critical crisis point.

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you
27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled);
28 so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you.

29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.
30 'Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

.

God's clear and direct statements there - suggest that we should pay attention to that list

You're making it all about the Amorites, and trying to say that only certain sins cause God to eliminate a nation.

That is true. Notice the details in Lev 18 - it is exactly how God words the text.

Trying to figure out if God is right to Word it that way - I leave to others.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

Actually the Caananites are in the land "first" then later Abraham is sent over there - to it.

Yeah... There's no dispute there.

God's clear and direct statements there - suggest that we should pay attention to that list

> all about the Amorites... only certain sins cause God to eliminate a nation.

That is true. Notice the details in Lev 18 - it is exactly how God words the text.

Trying to figure out if God is right to Word it that way - I leave to others.

Still, the focus is on the land; not "which violations of the commandments of the Law are worse than others".
Why would God mention the land; it is was just about particular acts people were doing with their bodies?

Deut. 18:9-14, this is repeated; but this time, it is occult ritual (including witchcraft) and not sexual perversion that is mentioned. Yet God has not cast out every nation guilty of those things, or there would be practically no nation left.

Again, it was a particular context of one people in one particular land doing wicked things (breaking ALL commandments), and Israel was to be given that land. It has nothing to do with 21st century America, or sexual sins being worse than everything else. (Which is the assumption of an American-centered faith trying to argue for the "good old days").

 

[BobRyan]

It is hard to get away from the point in the text - that God himself is the one who comes up with that list - and then concludes by saying

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.

And when you consider that the "nationS" that lived there before Israel - were all pagan - it is amazing the list that God "sovereignly chooses" to then bring up.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

And it's hard to get away from the fact that another scripture mentions other sins in that same judgment. Problem is, as in many disputes, someone taking an isolated passage and running with it into some conclusion, but ignoring other passages that further inform the issue.

 

[BobRyan]

It is hard to get away from the point in the text - that God himself is the one who comes up with that list - and then concludes by saying

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.

And when you consider that the "nationS" that lived there before Israel - were all pagan - it is amazing the list that God "sovereignly chooses" to then bring up.

God is the one that made the decision to wipe out those pagan nations - and He is the one that states the reason for it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

...the fact that another scripture mentions other sins in that same judgment...

But regardless, since you won't deal with this point; what really is your point? That sexual sins are "really bad", and other sins (including ones you commit) really aren't that bad?
Is this about looking at others' sins and thinking they are worse, because you surmise God judges them harder? Our message to the nation should be "just quit homosexuality, and abortion, and God will bless us; but any other sin you commit is OK"? Is that the way we are supposed to be thinking? You who try to uphold the equal importance of ALL the commands?

 

[BobRyan]

My point is that God is the one making this Lev 18 list and that God holds even non-informed non-Bible-aware nations accountable.

God includes things like killing infants (abortion in modern times).

God does not include "failure to Honor parents" or "failure to pay tithe" or "the use of images in worship" etc. All things that are "also sins" but not the lines that cause God to obliterate a nation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

So you believe there is a hierarchy of sin, and only sexual related ones are "worse".
That's the message we are supposed to be preaching. That we were a good nation, until these sins became more prevalent (or more exposed in the last few generations), and the others are not as important.
And national salvation is more urgent than personal salvation. I thought the entire world was supposed to be ended anyway, and for worshipping the Beast moreso than those other two sins. If the entire world is going to be judged and abolished, then what difference does it make in any particular nation if the sin is homosexuality, or Beast worship; (and they're more than likely committing both anyway)?