Bishop John Spong re-thinks Heaven & Hell

[Thinkingstuff]

I guess I missed the "mankind sanctified by wearing tzittzit" - in fact even orthodox Jews today do not do that apart from clergy.

Secondly - this is an "appearance" differentiator for Jews and has nothing to do with morals or with health.





1. Turns out "exegesis" is the rule not paradosis.

2. Your idea is of the form "I (thinkingstuff) have to pay attention to Lev 19:18 Love your Neighbor - but not Lev 11 about do not eat rats and diseased meat - however you will have to observe the rule for Hebrew clergy regarding tassels if you choose to obey God's Word by avoiding diseased meats and rat sandwiches".

Your solution does not make a lot of sense.




That is what the Catholic marketing literature says - but it is not even remotely exegesis of the text.

in Christ,

Bob

Have you read the book of Acts? Remember the story of the Ethiopian Eunich? Thomas showed him what Isaiah was talking about how? By reading Jesus into it. The simple reading of those passages does not reveal jesus christ. Thomas had to give the Ethiopian the paradosis of reading jesus into the text.
The Tzitzit has everything to do with health and morals. they remind the wearer of the commandments and you are wrong about the Jews every male practicing Jew has a tallit with tzitzit. And the Holy Spirit dealt with the food in Acts because the sheet with the forbidden animals God specifically said do not call unclean anything I have made clean. And it just wasn't the gentiles he was talking about but the practices and the food they ate like shrimp, and oysters that were outlawed by the law. Not just diseased rat. though I hope you know there are rats that are not diseased. and its not my solution but the Lord himself. God doesn't even forbid Christians to eat food offered to Idols so there is alot you seem to ignore beause of the SDA paradosis. You either follow the law or you do not you can't pick and choose. However, James sets the limits of the law that gentiles must follow also in the book of acts.

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Yet we have Paul turn around and say

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

So I think you are putting more restrictions on the believer than there really is.

 

[BobRyan]

Have you read the book of Acts? Remember the story of the Ethiopian Eunich? Thomas showed him what Isaiah was talking about how? By reading Jesus into it. The simple reading of those passages does not reveal jesus christ. Thomas had to give the Ethiopian the paradosis of reading jesus into the text.

Not so. The Ethiopian himself asks the question "does the prophet say this of himself or of someone else?" the text of Acts shows that the written text of Isaiah was directing the reader to ask the very question that you claim must be "read into" the text.

Philip had information about the details of the life of Christ and how they fulfilled the text - but it is still the job of the Ethiopian to compare whatever Steven said against the text to SEE IF it matches.

"They Studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul WERE so" Acts 17:11.

Thus it is still today "IF WE (APOSTLES) or an angel from heaven should come to you preaching a different Gospel... let him be accursed" Gal 1:6-11.

The idea of "swallow whatever anyone tells you" simply is not a Bible approved method.

The Tzitzit has everything to do with health and morals.

It was neither "unhealthy" to not wear one (or for the orthodox non-clerical Jews today not to wear tassles ) nor was it - nor is it "immoral".

they remind the wearer of the commandments

Indeed - as does placing a symbol of the ten commandments over the door. But again it was and still is - neither unhealthy nor immoral to not follow that custom.

The visual indicators that someone was a Hebrew (the tassles for example) - applied only to Hebrews - both OT and NT.

and you are wrong about the Jews every male practicing Jew has a tallit with tzitzit.

What a good piece of data that would be. What is your source?

And the Holy Spirit dealt with the food in Acts because the sheet with the forbidden animals God specifically said do not call unclean anything I have made clean. And it just wasn't the gentiles he was talking about but the practices and the food they ate like shrimp

No fish are listed in the Acts 10 vision - nothing from the water at all is mentioned. (Creatures of the earth and of the air)

It is "Creeping things" and abominations such as rats that are the focus. But no "rat sandwich" conclusion as Peter relates this vision three times in the book of Acts and all three times "Call no MAN unclean" is stated BY PETER as the correct interpretation - instead of "call no RAT unclean" or "call no diseased flesh unclean".

In fact IN the case of the vision - 3 times the sheet of rats and snakes etc comes down - and 3 TIMES the Peter says NO - and affirms to God that he (Peter) has not violated that part of God's Word.

I hope you know there are rats that are not diseased.

Not trying to stop you from that next bite of rat-sandwich - but a detail here that you are skipping. The "diseased" meat issue actually mentioned in the text of Lev 11 is not about rats because rats are already NOT to be eaten. There would be no point in saying "do not eat rats and also do not eat diseased rats" -- that makes no sense - it is simply not in the text.

What IS in the text is the fact about eating animals THAT ARE declared by God to be good for food (edible) where He says that IF THEY are diseased then they TOO become unclean for you - just like the rat-sandwich.

This may be a trial to those who anticipated eating rat-sandwiches and diseased beef - but for me - I am happy to honor God's Word in this regard. I do not "draw the line" for what God's Word can say on this subject at the point of insisting on eating diseased beef or rats.

God doesn't even forbid Christians to eat food offered to Idols so there is alot you seem to ignore beause of the SDA paradosis.

I find your logic illusive at that point. What part of my argument made it appear that the "weak gentile who thinks the idol is a god and so eats vegetables only" along with my "no OT text says it is a sin to eat anything but vegetables" makes it appear that would have differed with your statement above?

You either follow the law or you do not you can't pick and choose.

Hence my reference to Lev 19:18 "Honor your neighbor as yourself" in conjunction with Lev 11 and the Ten Commandments etc etc.

As Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

However, James sets the limits of the law that gentiles must follow also in the book of acts.

Acts 15 makes it paramount that all of the scripture be followed as it references the Acts 13 fact that "from Sabbath to Sabbath" gentiles hear the Word of God being taught.

But Acts 15 is not all inclusive - so for example it does not include the Eph 6 statement of Paul about the commandment to honor Parents or the commandments found in James 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Alright Bob lets look at this. this is the passage from Acts

9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

So the vision is not just about diseased rat or diseased beef. But all kinds of four footed animals and reptiles and birds (including chicken I suppose) God told Peter to kill and eat. EAT. He didn't say hang out with gentiles. He said eat because gentiles eat foods as mentioned in the vision. this dietary restriction is lifted. It has nothing to do with peter affriming he was following the law.

And note lev 11

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud.
4 " 'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you. 5 The coney, [a] though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

9 " 'Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales. 10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to detest. 11 And since you are to detest them, you must not eat their meat and you must detest their carcasses. 12 Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you.

13 " 'These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

20 " 'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. 21 There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest.

has all this even before you come before the diseased carcases.

24 " 'You will make yourselves unclean by these; whoever touches their carcasses will be unclean till evening. 25 Whoever picks up one of their carcasses must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening.

26 " 'Every animal that has a split hoof not completely divided or that does not chew the cud is unclean for you; whoever touches the carcass of any of them will be unclean. 27 Of all the animals that walk on all fours, those that walk on their paws are unclean for you; whoever touches their carcasses will be unclean till evening. 28 Anyone who picks up their carcasses must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening. They are unclean for you.

29 " 'Of the animals that move about on the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, 30 the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon. 31 Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening. 32 When one of them dies and falls on something, that article, whatever its use, will be unclean, whether it is made of wood, cloth, hide or sackcloth. Put it in water; it will be unclean till evening, and then it will be clean. 33 If one of them falls into a clay pot, everything in it will be unclean, and you must break the pot. 34 Any food that could be eaten but has water on it from such a pot is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean. 35 Anything that one of their carcasses falls on becomes unclean; an oven or cooking pot must be broken up. They are unclean, and you are to regard them as unclean. 36 A spring, however, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but anyone who touches one of these carcasses is unclean. 37 If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. 38 But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, it is unclean for you.

39 " 'If an animal that you are allowed to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass will be unclean till evening. 40 Anyone who eats some of the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening. Anyone who picks up the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening.

41 " 'Every creature that moves about on the ground is detestable; it is not to be eaten. 42 You are not to eat any creature that moves about on the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is detestable. 43 Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. 44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground. 45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

46 " 'These are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves in the water and every creature that moves about on the ground. 47 You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.' "

thus the restriction here is lifted for the gentiles. and Acts 15 seems pretty inclusive for the gentiles with regard to diet. Especially from the Judiazers who wanted to have Christians act Jewish.

 

[BobRyan]

Since this is the heaven+Hell thread - I am taking your post over to Steaver's "Bacon" thread so we can look at Lev 11 and Acts 10 in detail without diverting the subject of the thread -

Please join me over there.

Bob

 

[annsni]

You know very well what I mean. Your concept of rewards as you posited them - that is unscriptural.

Nope, it's not. Paul is speaking to Christians in 2 Corinthians 5 where he says that we will "all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (vs. 10) We know that our salvation is not based on anything we've done so this is not speaking of a judgment of salvation but instead rewards.

The reward is either heaven (eternal life) or hell (eternal damnation).

No - that's not a reward. That is our gift. A reward is for what we've done. Salvation is not of our works but from God. Rewards are what we've earned ourselves. Note that in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, both kids of men are saved.

I am free from sin. However, I will and do still sin…” How convoluted is that!

Guess you've never read Romans then, huh?

Well, if that interpretation were true, then anyone could do anything they like in this life without retribution in the afterlife. After all, it’s all been forgiven before we even do it. Scripture clearly states that we will be judged according to our works. See the above!

Maybe read Romans 6-8. I think it will be quite enlightening to you.

Right! And that sanctification “finishing” process must take place, which is precisely my point! Just another point here - in order to be clothed in Christs righteousnes, one must be baptized .

Romans 6:3–4: Are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Galatians 3:27: For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13: For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit (see also Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and Col. 2:11–13).

You DO realize that not all of these verses are speaking of water baptism, right? We can see this because of other verses that do not say that we need to be baptized to be clothed in Christ's righeousness:

Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Phil 3:8-11 For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Then you have no need for judgment do you. I mean, since you are already spotless and all…

I think maybe you need to do a bit of a study on the judgment and salvation. I see you do not understand them.

You can’t. However “washed clean” is the operative phrase here - it’s a cleansing – a purgation about which we are speaking. This is the very essence of the discussion.

Yes - and this is done before death. Read 1 Corinthians 6:11 "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." See? Done. Amen!

 

[Zenas]

Nope, it's not. Paul is speaking to Christians in 2 Corinthians 5 where he says that we will "all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (vs. 10) We know that our salvation is not based on anything we've done so this is not speaking of a judgment of salvation but instead rewards.

Sorry, I can't go there. I believe Paul was referring to all people, not just Christians, when he said, "We will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." The syntax just doesn't seem to circumscribe the members of the church at Corinth. But, assuming it does just that, and assuming that all of them were saved regardless of their bad deeds, it makes absolutely no sense to give out any reward but punishment for bad deeds. Surely you're not suggesting we get even a small positive reward for bad deeds. And if the reward is punishment, wouldn't that be inconsistent with the concept of Heaven? I think it would be inconsistent, inasmuch as punishment is a function of Hell. Therefore, this verse must be referring to a general judgment of all persons where some go to Heaven and some go to Hell, i.e., the same thing as the Great White Throne Judgment. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds." Matthew 16:27.

 

[annsni]

Sorry, I can't go there. I believe Paul was referring to all people, not just Christians, when he said, "We will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." The syntax just doesn't seem to circumscribe the members of the church at Corinth. But, assuming it does just that, and assuming that all of them were saved regardless of their bad deeds, it makes absolutely no sense to give out any reward but punishment for bad deeds. Surely you're not suggesting we get even a small positive reward for bad deeds. And if the reward is punishment, wouldn't that be inconsistent with the concept of Heaven? I think it would be inconsistent, inasmuch as punishment is a function of Hell. Therefore, this verse must be referring to a general judgment of all persons where some go to Heaven and some go to Hell, i.e., the same thing as the Great White Throne Judgment. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds." Matthew 16:27.

No, certainly we will not be rewarded for bad but we will receive what is due us based on what we've done whether good or bad. What is due to the one who does bad? Less than the one who does good. But what does the believer who has done more bad than good get? Salvation. There are some who will do many wonderful things in their life for the kingdom and there are some who did not do many wonderful things for the kingdom. But do they not both get salvation if they are saved by the blood of the Lamb? Yes. In the context of the verse, it's clearly written to those who are saved so we must read this in light of that context.

 

[Zenas]

No, certainly we will not be rewarded for bad but we will receive what is due us based on what we've done whether good or bad. What is due to the one who does bad? Less than the one who does good. But what does the believer who has done more bad than good get? Salvation. There are some who will do many wonderful things in their life for the kingdom and there are some who did not do many wonderful things for the kingdom. But do they not both get salvation if they are saved by the blood of the Lamb? Yes. In the context of the verse, it's clearly written to those who are saved so we must read this in light of that context.

That's why I can't buy into OSAS theology. It leads to absurd results. It also requires that you ignore and/or butcher to the point of nonrecognition literally dozens of scripture passages.

 

[DHK]

Sorry, I can't go there. I believe Paul was referring to all people, not just Christians, when he said, "We will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." The syntax just doesn't seem to circumscribe the members of the church at Corinth.

There is no passage of Scripture that I know of where an apostle uses the first person pronoun (whether singular or plural) to refer to the unsaved. Paul was not unsaved, and would never consider himself to be among the unsaved. "We" puts himself among the saved. He is referring to the Judgment Seat of Christ, referred to in more detail in 1Cor.3:11-15.

But, assuming it does just that, and assuming that all of them were saved regardless of their bad deeds, it makes absolutely no sense to give out any reward but punishment for bad deeds. Surely you're not suggesting we get even a small positive reward for bad deeds.

Look at the passage that gives more detail in 1Cor.3:11-15. There is reward and loss of reward.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The works that we do are on this earth. They are done with the members of our body as it describes in Romans 6. The members of our body are instruments of righteous or unrighteousness depending on how we use them. Every believer has the gift of eternal life, and will never lose that gift. Thus this judgment has to do with "the things (reward) done in his body, whether it be good (an eternal reward) or bad (loss of reward as described in 1Cor.3:11-15).

And if the reward is punishment, wouldn't that be inconsistent with the concept of Heaven? I think it would be inconsistent, inasmuch as punishment is a function of Hell.

The loss of reward is not inconsistent with the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Therefore, this verse must be referring to a general judgment of all persons where some go to Heaven and some go to Hell, i.e., the same thing as the Great White Throne Judgment. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds." Matthew 16:27.

There is no such thing as one general judgment taught in the Bible. There are many judgments:
1. The judgment of the righteous (Judgment Seat of Christ)
2. The judgment of the unrighteous (Great White Throne Judgment)
3. The judgment of angels.
4. The judgment of the nations.

To name a few.
There is not just one general judgment. There are many.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
--Two resurrections; two judgments.

I for one, will never stand at the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by annsni
Nope, it's not. Paul is speaking to Christians in 2 Corinthians 5 where he says that we will "all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (vs. 10) We know that our salvation is not based on anything we've done so this is not speaking of a judgment of salvation but instead rewards.

Sorry, I can't go there. I believe Paul was referring to all people, not just Christians, when he said, "We will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." The syntax just doesn't seem to circumscribe the members of the church at Corinth.

In Romans 6 the reware for "bad deeds" is death "the wages of sin is death".

In Romans 2:6-11 the reward for bad deeds is condemnation and torment in the 2nd death.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

In Romans 6 the reware for "bad deeds" is death "the wages of sin is death".

In Romans 2:6-11 the reward for bad deeds is condemnation and torment in the 2nd death.

in Christ,

Bob

Then your "religion" is based on works and not by grace through faith. What does Romans 6 say:

Romans 6:20-23 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
--Bad deeds is not eternal death. In fact being the servant of sin is simply the absence of righteousness. Before these people were saved they were not in hell; not annihilated; not in a state of soul sleep; not in the Lake of fire, etc. They were present on the earth, alive, but spiritually dead

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Do bad deeds = eternal death or the 2nd death?
These bad deeds, the things that they are now ashamed of resulted in death.
Physical death? No. These Romans, that Paul was writing to were quite alive.
Eternal or the Second death? No. These Romans, that Paul was writing to were quite alive?
Spiritual death? Absolutely! They were separated from God or spiritually dead until the Holy Spirit would enter their lives and give them spiritual life.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Now they are saved. They have been made free from sin. They have become servants to God. Their fruit is holiness and the end is everlasting life. What a beautiful verse that teaches OSAS for the believer. Salvation always produces eternal life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ultimately sin ends in separation (death) from God, whether spiritual or eternal. But the gift of God is eternal life. Another great verse for OSAS. It is God's great promise.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Romans 6 the reware for "bad deeds" is death "the wages of sin is death".

In Romans 2:6-11 the reward for bad deeds is condemnation and torment in the 2nd death.

in Christ,

Bob

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Paul is very quick to point out the obedience to the Law that is so readily apparent in the lives and teaching of born-again saved saints.

But some pulpits are still stuck on only teaching about the view of the law from the standpoint of the LOST - the not saved.

Then your "religion" is based on works and not by grace through faith. What does Romans 6 say:

Romans 6:20-23 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 6 is a good text speaking about the law that DEFINES sin - and the OBEDIENCE to that Law that is to be seen in the life of the saved saint.


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin[/b], you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

--Bad deeds is not eternal death. In fact being the servant of sin is simply the absence of righteousness.

IN the text Paul says that being overcome by sin - or making the claim that under grace you ought to be allowed to sin - is to be the "slave of sin" as a lost person.

Paul argues in Romans 6 that if you choose to be the slave of sin - after you are "under grace" then you have lost salvation.

In fact this is seen in Romans 11 as well "you should FEAR for you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Paul argues in Romans 6 that if you choose to be the slave of sin - after you are "under grace" then you have lost salvation.

Bob

Are you sure about that? Just who draws that line? And where is that line drawn. Have you ever told a lie? Just once? Twice? Five times? Twenty? Are you a slave to it? Perhaps you are not saved. Have you chosen to be a servant of sin? Is it 19 lies or 20 lies that makes one a slave to the sin of lying?

 

[BillySunday1935]

Nope, it's not. Paul is speaking to Christians in 2 Corinthians 5 where he says that we will "all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (vs. 10) We know that our salvation is not based on anything we've done so this is not speaking of a judgment of salvation but instead rewards.

And what would the bad rewards be in heaven - a shack instead of a mansion? Streets of silver in lieu of gold? Right…

You just skipped right over the operative word “judgment” there didn’t you. It means precisely that - judgment.

2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (King James Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done (WORKS), whether it be good or bad.

No - that's not a reward. That is our gift. A reward is for what we've done. Salvation is not of our works but from God. Rewards are what we've earned ourselves. Note that in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, both kids of men are saved.

Well, you have to misinterpret these passages in that way in order to get around the issue of works. Unfortunately, you’ll also need to disregard an enormous amount of scripture in the process. Ref. Posts #34, #35 , & #36 in this thread.

Guess you've never read Romans then, huh?

Um hmmm…

Maybe read Romans 6-8. I think it will be quite enlightening to you.

What? Oh lordy…It is astonishingly clear that you don’t even read most of what I post as I’ve reference those verses multiple times. Ok – here it is again:

Romans 2:5-8
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

Let’s look at this closely now:
6 God will repay everyone according to his works:

And that repayment will be?

7 ETERNAL LIFE to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works

- BUT –

8 WRATH AND FURY (eternal damnation) to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

You DO realize that not all of these verses are speaking of water baptism, right? We can see this because of other verses that do not say that we need to be baptized to be clothed in Christ's righteousness:

Perhaps. However, you stated that you were “clothed in Christ” and I simply pointed out to you the requirement of water baptism.

Galatians 3:27: For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Phil 3:8-11 For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Amen! However, take note of the last part of Phil 3:8-11: that... I MAY (not I SHALL) obtain the resurrection from the dead" He doesn’t sound all that sure to me.

I think maybe you need to do a bit of a study on the judgment and salvation. I see you do not understand them.

If by that you mean that I don’t understand how you arrive at your particular interpretation regarding judgment and salvation, then yes – that would be true.

Yes - and this is done before death. Read 1 Corinthians 6:11 "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." See? Done. Amen!

I see – quote a verse then claim victory. Look, 1 Corinthians 6:11 is simply referring to a past event - “you were sanctified, you were justified “ which does not speak to its continuance.

I believe that you have a limited understanding of salvation as a continual process.

"I have been saved”
Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ. (by grace you have been saved)

2 Cor 5:17 “So whoever is in Christ is a new creation”

This acknowledges the first meaning of "saved" and "salvation" in scripture--Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved--He died, rose from the dead in atonement for our sins.

"I am being saved”
1 Corinthians 1:18
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 15:2 “Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain”.

This acknowledges the second meaning "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the present experience, God's power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin.

"I will be saved"
Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Rom 5:9 “How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath”.

I will be saved, that I have hope and confidence that God will give me the grace of perseverance; that I will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death.

This acknowledges the third meaning the words "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ.

Philippians 2:12 “So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

If it were a “one time event” there would be no need to work out our salvation.

Peace!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Paul argues in Romans 6 that if you choose to be the slave of sin - after you are "under grace" then you have lost salvation.

Are you sure about that?

Let the reader - see the text and be informed.

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin[/b], you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

 

[annsni]

Let the reader - see the text and be informed.

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin[/b], you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

This passage does not support your statement at all.

 

[rbell]

How can you be washed cleaner than by the blood of the Lamb?

Maybe you get a hot wax & shine from the Pope.

Just guessin'...

Maybe our resident Southern Baptist......er, Catholic.....er, something-or-other will let us know...

 

[DHK]

Let the reader - see the text and be informed.

Go for it Bob! Even Jeremiah mocks your position:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

Be sure to use lots of soap with that water in that baptismal tank. Scrub hard. You want to make sure you scrub each and every sin off.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Maybe you get a hot wax & shine from the Pope.

Just guessin'...

Maybe our resident Southern Baptist......er, Catholic.....er, something-or-other will let us know...

"So many suplicants... so little time"

 

[Revmitchell]

Maybe you get a hot wax & shine from the Pope.

Just guessin'...

Maybe our resident Southern Baptist......er, Catholic.....er, something-or-other will let us know...

Most likely something or other