Bishop John Spong re-thinks Heaven & Hell

[BobRyan]

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The teaching:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Every believer knows this. It is a foundational truth of Christianity. There is no intermediate state.

No text in all of scripture says "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" - no - not even 2Cor 5:8.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Paul observes the problem you speak of in Romans 7 - seeing a gap between what he does in this life and the fact that with his mind he agrees with the Law of God and serves the Law of God.

Romans 8 is the answer - "By the Holy Spirit" daily "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - as Christ said "take up your cross daily and follow Me".

The thing we struggle with is our sinful nature (that gets removed at the resurrection). We also struggle with our own defects of character - bad habbits cultivated in this life - beyond the sinful desires and defects we are all born with -- that gets resolved by turning to God.

in Col 2 - Paul says "as you RECEIVED Christ Jesus so WALK in Him".

The key is not in some future deed - it is the first deed - it is doing what you did at first - as a lost sinner - turning your will over to God - submitting all to Him.

Retaining that same attitude/decision/act of submitting to God that comes at the moment of conversion - combined with the taking away of the sinful nature at the resurrection is all that is needed. As many of the texts point out - we are to "persevere" in that first decision - it is not a case of living long enough to "reach a new decision" but rather the determination to hold perseveringly to the FIRST one.

Letting go of that first "I surrender all decision" and then failing is the struggle that we face.

Thats all a part of sanctification. but do you know anyone who has reached perfection when they died? I don't.

The whole point of my post is that you do not have some line you must cross before you die.

Rather you must cross in the condition that you started in - fully surrendered to Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

No text in all of scripture says "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" - no - not even 2Cor 5:8.

in Christ,

Bob

No need to strain at gnats Bob. It doesn't have to say that to teach that.
What was Paul saying?

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Twice he repeats the same truth.
While we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. It is evident that that statement being an absolute premise, the corollary is also an absolute truth: While away from the body we are at home with the Lord. There is no other conclusion for a believer.

And thus in verse 8 we have such a conclusion. "To be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. The two go together"
Yes it does say that: word for word. There is no other conclusion. How could it be any clearer?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
No text in all of scripture says "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" - no - not even 2Cor 5:8.

in Christ,

Bob

No need to strain at gnats Bob. It doesn't have to say that to teach that.

Imagine for a second that our Catholic friends could get by with that kind of response and still call it "sola scriptura". How much doctrine "could NOT be taught" under such a rule??

What was Paul saying?

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Twice he repeats the same truth.

That is true - but Paul is very clear - his desire is NOT simply to be "absent from the body" for Paul says that in the state where we are absent from the body - but not present with the Lord - we are in the "unclothed state". Paul describes that as a very undesirable state in 2Cor 5.

One may say "While I am in America I am NOT in Australia" - one may also say "I desire to be ABSENT from America and PRESENT in Australia" -- and one may say "I do not desire to be on a long ocean voyage - neither in Austrialia or in America".

But at no point in that list can we conclude that any "absence from America" is "by definition - presence in Australia".

Such an argument makes no sense.

Thus in 2Cor 5 Paul identifies three states -- JUST as he does in 1Cor 15 when he speaks about death and resurrection.


2Cor 4
(Context for hope is set as being the resurrection)

13 But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,
14 knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.
16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The THREE states of man -

1. In this earthly tent - in this house
2. This house torn down - we are in the unclothed state
3. In our heavenly building - a house not made with hands. Present with the Lord

2Cor 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.[/b]
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

In 2Cor 4 Paul says that the goal - the focus - the hope is placed in the resurrection from the dead.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BillySunday1935]

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The teaching:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Every believer knows this. It is a foundational truth of Christianity. There is no intermediate state.

If you are denying that you will be judged, then the "teaching" that you follow is wrong.

Philippians 1:23-24 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

The teaching:
Paul had mixed feelings, but one thing he knew for sure--If he should depart from this earth he would be with Christ. There was no intermediate state. There was no place where he needed to be purified.


If I died right now I would stand before a holy God: I being perfectly holy, purified, justified, sanctified, and able to enter into the presence of an Almighty God. Why? Because God made me holy, and purified me in the clothing of his righteousness when he justified me on the day that I trusted him as my Savior many, many years ago. On that day he forgave all my sins: past, present, and future, and gave me the gift of eternal life--a gift which can never be taken away. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will never be blotted out according to the promises of God.

Why not read a little further in 2 Corinthians 5 there DHK.

2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (King James Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done (WORKS), whether it be good or bad.

If you died right now you would be most certainly be with the Lord and you would then be judged. If you are going to heaven and you have any sins left, you will be cleansed and washed white as snow. Now - is this process instantaneous? I don't know and neither do you. God is outside of time. This process is what is known as purgatory.

Peace!

 

[BobRyan]

If you died right now you would be most certainly be with the Lord and you would then be judged. If you are going to heaven and you have any sins left, you will be cleansed and washed white as snow. Now - is this process instantaneous? I don't know and neither do you. God is outside of time. This process is what is known as purgatory.

Peace!

Which makes void the entire doctrine of indulgences - even "IF" the speculation about "saints needing to be cleansed" after death (for which we have no text at all) were true.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Which makes void the entire doctrine of indulgences - even "IF" the speculation about "saints needing to be cleansed" after death (for which we have no text at all) were true.

in Christ,

Bob

Paradosis Bob, Paradosis.

 

[BobRyan]

Thinkingstuff - and your point?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinkingstuff - and your point?

What you can't read my sarcasm?
That your point

Which makes void the entire doctrine of indulgences - even "IF" the speculation about "saints needing to be cleansed" after death (for which we have no text at all) were true.

Fails to the Catholics because they are reliant of Paradosis. Lori has mentioned it several times. They claim the speculation is yours because they have 2,000 years of interpreting the scripture the same way and they have consistent paradosis which basis they hold to. Just like you hold to your paradosis of maintaining the dietary laws of the OT but I am certain you don't follow the commandments of the tzittzit or have a tallit with tzittzit. Or wear garments made of the same material but a mixture.

 

[BobRyan]

They claim the speculation is yours because they have 2,000 years of interpreting the scripture the same way and they have consistent paradosis which basis they hold to. Just like you hold to your paradosis of maintaining the dietary laws of the OT but I am certain you don't follow the commandments of the tzittzit or have a tallit with tzittzit. Or wear garments made of the same material but a mixture.

As was pointed out on the other thread - the prohibtion in scripture is against single cloth woven with both linen and wool. I simply made the obvious observation that we don't normally wear clothes consisting of a weave of wool and linen. Not the big flaw that many had so offhandedly imagined.

I also point out above - my argument is based on the text of scripture and since a lot of people like the idea of Lev 19:18 "love your neighbor as yourself" so they should be happy with the rest of that chapter (that speaks to the woven cloth problem) as well, and yes even Lev 11 that says not to eat rats, cats and diseased meat etc. Again - not the big leap in imagination and logic that some have hope it would be.

So my position remains in the "sola scriptural" realm and if this is the Catholic position on indulgences and purgatory - then we are going to have a nice time digging into that "scriptura" to see if it supports their view.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

As was pointed out on the other thread - the prohibtion in scripture is against single cloth woven with both linen and wool. I simply made the obvious observation that we don't normally wear clothes consisting of a weave of wool and linen. Not the big flaw that many had so offhandedly imagined.

I also point out above - my argument is based on the text of scripture and since a lot of people like the idea of Lev 19:18 "love your neighbor as yourself" so they should be happy with the rest of that chapter (that speaks to the woven cloth problem) as well, and yes even Lev 11 that says not to eat rats, cats and diseased meat etc. Again - not the big leap in imagination and logic that some have hope it would be.

So my position remains in the "sola scriptural" realm and if this is the Catholic position on indulgences and purgatory - then we are going to have a nice time digging into that "scriptura" to see if it supports their view.

in Christ,

Bob

Scripture is clear on the garment issue as well as the tzittzit. In fact we are to be sanctified by the wearing of the tzittzit. Its not an option but a requirement. Your church's paradosis excludes the wearing of the tzittzit in which case how sola scriptura are you really? And note paradosis is also termed such that you interpret scripture by this same means everytime. So in the end we all hold to a paradosis of looking at scripture. No one ever just reads the simple meaning of scripture. They view it with their paradosis.

Speak to the Children of Israel and say to them that they shall make themselves tzitzit on the corners of their garments, throughout their generations and they shall place upon the tzitzit of each corner a thread of blue wool. These shall be your tzitzit, and when you see them, you shall remember all of God's commandments so as to keep them. You will then not stray after your heart and eyes after which have lead you to immorality. You will thus remember and keep all My commandments, and be holy to your God.

 

[annsni]

If you are denying that you will be judged, then the "teaching" that you follow is wrong.



Why not read a little further in 2 Corinthians 5 there DHK.

2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (King James Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done (WORKS), whether it be good or bad.

If you died right now you would be most certainly be with the Lord and you would then be judged. If you are going to heaven and you have any sins left, you will be cleansed and washed white as snow. Now - is this process instantaneous? I don't know and neither do you. God is outside of time. This process is what is known as purgatory.

Peace!

This passage says nothing at all about needing to be cleansed from our sin but it is talking about rewards. At the moment of salvation, we are justified - declared right before God. There is no needing to be further cleansed after death. That is not a Biblical idea at all.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 10:19-22 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[BillySunday1935]

The only place where sinful people will be allowed is at the throne of judgment. There's no "cleansing" before that after death. We either are counted righteous because we're clothed in Christ's righteousness or we're not. Period. End of story. Amen.

Well, that’s not quite the end of the story...

2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (King James Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done (WORKS), whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 20:12 (King James Version)
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 2:23 (King James Version)
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

Everyone will be judged according to their works – heaven for those who persevere in those good works and hell for those who disobey. No one gets a pass on this.

We either are counted righteous because we're clothed in Christ's righteousness or we're not.

Ok – and how long does that clothing in Christ’s righteousness take? Is it instantaneous? God is outside of time you know. Is there some cleansing that takes place in order to be clothed in Christ’s righteousness? The early Church Fathers seemed to think so and they were much closer in time to the actual teachings of the apostles than some theologian 1500-2000 years later.

What about it? I don't see where it's saying that we are purified in purgatory for our sins. We're either righteous or not. There's no purification after death. Now if you'd like to address the "rewards", that's a different story than salvation and righeousness.

Not according to scripture:
Here it is again.

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

It should be abundantly clear here that everyone (2 Corinthians 5:10) will be repaid according to their works – and that repayment is either eternal life (for those who did good works), or eternal damnation to those who were disobedient. There are the "rewards" of which you speak.

End of story – Amen!

‡ Peace ‡

 

[BillySunday1935]

This passage says nothing at all about needing to be cleansed from our sin but it is talking about rewards.

Nope – that is unscriptural - see post #133

At the moment of salvation, we are justified - declared right before God.

Then why are you going unto judgment? Are you currently free from sin? Will you remain that way until death?

There is no needing to be further cleansed after death. That is not a Biblical idea at all.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are confusing justification with sanctification. The later is a life long process…

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Condemnation? No. Purification? For those of us with the stain of sin on our souls, yes.

Hebrews 10:19-22 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Yes - we can have confidence that God will keep his promise -assuming that we don't fall away. However, none of this negates the concept of a final cleansing.

‡ Peace ‡

 

[annsni]

Nope – that is unscriptural - see post #133

What is unscriptural - rewards or cleansing?

Then why are you going unto judgment? Are you currently free from sin? Will you remain that way until death?

I am justified and according to my salvation, I am free from sin. However, I will and do still sin but I know that my sin is already forgiven - past, present and future. I've been washed by the blood of the Lamb.

You are confusing justification with sanctification. The later is a life long process…

I'm not confusing anything. Justification is my standing before God. I'm justified because I'm clothed in Christ's righteousness. Yes, sanctification is a life-long process to become more like Christ and that will not be finished until heaven.

Condemnation? No. Purification? For those of us with the stain of sin on our souls, yes.

Nope. There is NO condemnation. None. No purification either because I'm clothed in Christ's righteousness. Can I get more pure than Christ?

Yes - we can have confidence that God will keep his promise -assuming that we don't fall away. However, none of this negates the concept of a final cleansing.

There is no final cleansing. How can you be washed cleaner than by the blood of the Lamb?

 

[BillySunday1935]

So what you are basically saying is that heaven has a purification Chamber where we are tossed into, get burned, then scrubbed, and then washed off by Saints in air tight radiation anti sin suites carrying hoses until our skin is rubbed raw. Then we are led into an air chamber where we have to wait until the preasure matches that in heaven. Once thats accomplished the air tight seal is then open while we adjust to the new heaven air and are finally let in throught a 10 inch blast proof door? is that where you're going with it? Just curious.

That scenario works about as well as any other that I've heard.

 

[BillySunday1935]

What is unscriptural - rewards or cleansing?

You know very well what I mean. Your concept of rewards as you posited them - that is unscriptural.

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

The reward is either heaven (eternal life) or hell (eternal damnation).

I am justified and according to my salvation, I am free from sin. However, I will and do still sin…”

“I am free from sin. However, I will and do still sin…” How convoluted is that!

“…but I know that my sin is already forgiven - past, present and future. I've been washed by the blood of the Lamb.”

Well, if that interpretation were true, then anyone could do anything they like in this life without retribution in the afterlife. After all, it’s all been forgiven before we even do it. Scripture clearly states that we will be judged according to our works. See the above!

I'm not confusing anything. Justification is my standing before God. I'm justified because I'm clothed in Christ's righteousness. Yes, sanctification is a life-long process to become more like Christ and that will not be finished until heaven.

Right! And that sanctification “finishing” process must take place, which is precisely my point! Just another point here - in order to be clothed in Christs righteousnes, one must be baptized .

Romans 6:3–4: Are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Galatians 3:27: For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13: For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit (see also Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and Col. 2:11–13).

Nope. There is NO condemnation. None. No purification either because I'm clothed in Christ's righteousness. Can I get more pure than Christ?

Then you have no need for judgment do you. I mean, since you are already spotless and all…

There is no final cleansing. How can you be washed cleaner than by the blood of the Lamb?

You can’t. However “washed clean” is the operative phrase here - it’s a cleansing – a purgation about which we are speaking. This is the very essence of the discussion.

‡ Peace ‡

 

[BobRyan]

As was pointed out on the other thread - the prohibtion in scripture is against single cloth woven with both linen and wool. I simply made the obvious observation that we don't normally wear clothes consisting of a weave of wool and linen. Not the big flaw that many had so offhandedly imagined.

I also point out above - my argument is based on the text of scripture and since a lot of people like the idea of Lev 19:18 "love your neighbor as yourself" so they should be happy with the rest of that chapter (that speaks to the woven cloth problem) as well, and yes even Lev 11 that says not to eat rats, cats and diseased meat etc. Again - not the big leap in imagination and logic that some have hope it would be.

So my position remains in the "sola scriptural" realm and if this is the Catholic position on indulgences and purgatory - then we are going to have a nice time digging into that "scriptura" to see if it supports their view.

Scripture is clear on the garment issue as well as the tzittzit. In fact we are to be sanctified by the wearing of the tzittzit.

I guess I missed the "mankind sanctified by wearing tzittzit" - in fact even orthodox Jews today do not do that apart from clergy.

Secondly - this is an "appearance" differentiator for Jews and has nothing to do with morals or with health.

Your church's paradosis excludes the wearing of the tzittzit in which case how sola scriptura are you really? And note paradosis is also termed such that you interpret scripture by this same means everytime. So in the end we all hold to a paradosis of looking at scripture.

1. Turns out "exegesis" is the rule not paradosis.

2. Your idea is of the form "I (thinkingstuff) have to pay attention to Lev 19:18 Love your Neighbor - but not Lev 11 about do not eat rats and diseased meat - however you will have to observe the rule for Hebrew clergy regarding tassels if you choose to obey God's Word by avoiding diseased meats and rat sandwiches".

Your solution does not make a lot of sense.

No one ever just reads the simple meaning of scripture. They view it with their paradosis.

That is what the Catholic marketing literature says - but it is not even remotely exegesis of the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So what you are basically saying is that heaven has a purification Chamber where we are tossed into, get burned, then scrubbed, and then washed off by Saints in air tight radiation anti sin suites carrying hoses until our skin is rubbed raw. Then we are led into an air chamber where we have to wait until the preasure matches that in heaven. Once thats accomplished the air tight seal is then open while we adjust to the new heaven air and are finally let in throught a 10 inch blast proof door? is that where you're going with it? Just curious.

That scenario works about as well as any other that I've heard.

Then the so-called "infallable" system of indulgences is total nonsense because you cannot "pressurize person B" as a way of "pressurizing person A".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The point I am making is that whenever a good case is attempted for Purgatory - (from discussion reason alone - since in fact there is no text for it) --- the argument always surfaces in a form that makes the system of indulgences impossible.

in Christ,

Bob