Define "The Gospel"

[DHK]

And in the book of Hebrews where Christ NOW performs the saving work of High Priest -as stated by Paul - and as predicted by God in Lev 16.
Bob

This is heresy. It denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ; the work of Christ on the cross, and infers that Christ failed. What he did was "good for nothing." Thus he still works at the atonement today. It wasn't good enough for the Father (in the eyes of the SDA or Bob). Christ really goofed up or failed on the cross. These are the only conclusions one can come to when Bob states that:
Christ NOW performs the saving work of High Priest.

Nothing could be further from this heresy. The atonement is finished. The work of salvation is finished, but here Bob says Christ is still carrying on his saving work of grace in Heaven. This doctrine is worse than the doctrine of transubstantiation that the RCC teaches. The SDA (or Bob) is teaching that Christ is still making an atonement for the sins of the world up in heaven. The cry of Christ on the cross, "It is finished," was said in vain. It was meaningless. His death was in vain. The atonement isn't finished after all. Sorry folks go home, and sit in your homes in despair. You can't be sure of your salvation because the work of Christ isn't finished according to Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

In 1John 2:2 - we find the that "atoning sacrifice" was finished at the cross. That atoning sacrifice is described in Lev 16 as the sacrifice of the "sin offering".

Originally Posted by BobRyan
in Heb 4, 7, 8, 9 and chapter 10 we are told that Christ is now ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.


Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''

Heb 9:11
"But WHEN Christ APPEARED as a HIGH PRIEST of the GOOD things
to come HE ENTERED through the GREATER and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE with HANDS, that IS to say, NOT OF THIS creation;..



Heb 9:23
"THEREFORE it was necessary that the COPIES OF the THINGS in
heaven to be cleansed with these, but the HEAVENLY THINGS THEMSELVES
with BETTER sacrifices than these. For Christ did NOT enter a holy place MADE'
with HANDS, a MERE COPY of the TRUE ONE, but into HEAVEN ITSELF"


Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.


Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

This is heresy. It denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ;

Your Papal pronouncement skills -> A+

Bible exegesis -> F-

Your objection to God's statement on Atonement found in Lev 16 - in the Day of Atonement -- "noted".

As for the reality and reliability of the Word of God in describing and explaining salvation doctrine

The NT saints of the first century refer to what you claim to ignore as "the Old Testament" - as "Scripture"

Thus in Acts 17:11 "they studied the SCRIPTURES daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul were SO".

Amazing that the same texts that are brought up to the Catholic members of this board - need to be presented to DHK! -- WOW!



2Tim 3:16-17 - ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND IS profitable for doctrine -- (teaching, correction)

Speaking of Passover - "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed" 1Cor 5.

Speaking of First Fruits "Christ the First Fruits of the dead" 1Cor 15.

Speaking of Feast of Pentecost - Acts 2 (Well hopefully you are familiar with that part of the NT already) --

And thus the teaching in the OT on the doctrine of Atonement - as we find it in Lev 16 - is seen revealed again in the NT in the form of Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice" (1John 2:2 NIV)

And in the book of Hebrews where Christ NOW performs the saving work of High Priest -as stated by Paul - and as predicted by God in Lev 16.

so much scripture for DHK to ignore -- so little time.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

In 1John 2:2 - we find the that "atoning sacrifice" was finished at the cross. That atoning sacrifice is described in Lev 16 as the sacrifice of the "sin offering".
Bob

And do you sacrifice bulls and goats for your sins, Bob?

 

[steaver]

You would prefer "some papal pronouncement" instead of scripture?

Tell us how that would work.

Inquiring minds want to know.

in Christ,

Bob

No, you have to give them scripture, but from your heart. My question was directed towards having a person ask you how to be reconciled to God. What would you tell them from your heart? You have the salvation plan in your heart, correct? How would you tell this lost person how to be saved?

 

[BobRyan]

In 1John 2:2 - we find the that "atoning sacrifice" was finished at the cross. That atoning sacrifice is described in Lev 16 as the sacrifice of the "sin offering".

And do you sacrifice bulls and goats for your sins, Bob?

How in the world does the statement above - claiming that the "atoning sacrifice" is completed at the cross - bring you around to "well then we should continue offering animal sacrifices"??

I understand how we can talk past each other on some of these points - but how in the world did you miss that one?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

In 1John 2:2 - we find the that "atoning sacrifice" was finished at the cross. That atoning sacrifice is described in Lev 16 as the sacrifice of the "sin offering".
Bob

The Atonement:
From the American Tract and Society Dictionary

ATONEMENT
The satisfaction offered to divine justice for the sins of mankind by the death of Jesus Christ; by virtue of which all true penitents believing in Christ are reconciled to God, are freed from the penalty of their sins, and entitled to eternal life. The atonement by Jesus Christ is the great distinguishing peculiarity of the gospel, and is presented in a great variety of terms and illustrations in both the Old Testament and the New.

The Old Testament only illustrates the New Testament. The atonement is in Christ, and Christ alone. What is in the Old Testament is only a picture, a foreshadow of that which was to come.

 

[BobRyan]

In Lev 16 -- the Day of Atonement - we have God's teaching on the subject of Atonement - SHOWING us that this teaching includes the sacrifice of Christ as "The sin offering" - and ALSO showing us that it includes Christ's role as our "High Priest".

The teaching of Lev 16 - is then seen in the NT to ACTUALLY be fulfilled by Christ.

On the Cross he was "The sin offering" - or as 1John 2:2 puts it "The Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" NIV.

As Paul affirms in 1Cor 5 "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain".

And as Paul points out in Hebrews - Christ is now in heaven - as our High Priest.

Both of these NT roles of Christ - were indicated in the OT teaching that GOD GAVE - on the subject of Atonement.

(American Tract society not withstanding )

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

In Lev 16 -- the Day of Atonement - we have God's teaching on the subject of Atonement - SHOWING us that this teaching includes the sacrifice of Christ as "The sin offering" - and ALSO showing us that it includes Christ's role as our "High Priest".

The teaching of Lev 16 - is then seen in the NT to ACTUALLY be fulfilled by Christ.

On the Cross he was "The sin offering" - or as 1John 2:2 puts it "The Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" NIV.

As Paul affirms in 1Cor 5 "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain".

And as Paul points out in Hebrews - Christ is now in heaven - as our High Priest.

Both of these NT roles of Christ - were indicated in the OT teaching that GOD GAVE - on the subject of Atonement.

(American Tract society not withstanding )

in Christ,

Bob

Bob if you believe what you say I have nothing more than to conclude you are not saved and your soul is in peril of hell. Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

1. The unsaved needs not a priest but a Savior.
2. Only those that are saved, and know it, need a High Priest.
3. Every believer is a priest, and thus can go to a High Priest.
4. Every believer can go to a High Priest because he is a believer, has eternal life, and on that basis can enter into the presence of the most High. No unsaved person can do that. An unsaved person has not accepted the sacrificial atonement; but a saved person has accepted that propitiation, that sacrificial payment for his sins, and thus has eternal life and forgiveness of sins.
The atonement is done, accomplished. If it isn't, and you have not accepted the fact it has been done, then how can you be saved? Our faith is in the finished work of Christ, not partial. It is complete, not half done. One that is saved has put his faith in the complete work of the atonement, not an incomplete work. To believe otherwise is a blasphemous heresy. Jesus paid it all; all to him I owe. Sin has left a crimson stain. He washed me white as snow.
He paid it all. He is not still paying. (EGW notwithstanding).

 

[BobRyan]

In Lev 16 -- the Day of Atonement - we have God's teaching on the subject of Atonement - SHOWING us that this teaching includes the sacrifice of Christ as "The sin offering" - and ALSO showing us that it includes Christ's role as our "High Priest".

The teaching of Lev 16 - is then seen in the NT to ACTUALLY be fulfilled by Christ.

On the Cross he was "The sin offering" - or as 1John 2:2 puts it "The Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" NIV.

As Paul affirms in 1Cor 5 "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain".

And as Paul points out in Hebrews - Christ is now in heaven - as our High Priest.

Both of these NT roles of Christ - were indicated in the OT teaching that GOD GAVE - on the subject of Atonement.

(American Tract society not withstanding )

Bob if you believe what you say I have nothing more than to conclude you are not saved and your soul is in peril of hell.

Pontifical pronouncement "noted". :thumbs:

Remember how they did that with the saints in the dark ages as if that was a good substitute for "exegeting" the doctrine correctly?

they put people on trial or burned them? It is kind of funny when you think about it.

He paid it all. He is not still paying. (EGW notwithstanding).

Opps! Sorry for not quoting Ellen White some place here to help you make your rabbit-trail effort at misdirection.

I will try to do better.

But how in the world do you "also" leap off into the wild notion of "Christ is still paying" each time you see that the "Atoning Sacrifice was completed at the cross".

Do you not understand the concept?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Do you not understand the concept?

in Christ,

Bob

I don't believe the SDA concept of the atonement.
In the OT, the High Priest had to make an atonement for the sins every year. Therefore the OT model is not applicable for today. The atonement is not continuous. It is not yearly. It does not continue. It is not "atoning" as continuing into the present. It is not what Christ is doing right now. To say that that is what his ministry is, is heresy.

In 1891, Elisha Hoffman wrote:
Christ has for sin atonement made
What a wonderful Savior!
We are redeemed, the price is paid
What a wonderful Savior!

I praise Him for the cleansing blood
What a wonderful Savior!
That reconciled my soul to God
What a wonderful Savior!

The atonement is made--past tense.
The price has been paid--past tense.
His blood has been shed--past tense.
By his blood I have been reconciled--past tense.

There is nothing that is present tense about the atonement.
It was a completed action done in the past. Christ does not continue to atone for our sins.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The word "propitiation" simply means "satisfaction" in that the payment has already been made--past tense. The legal demands of God were met. Our sins have been atoned for--past tense. The only reason the verb "to be" is in the present tense is because that is who Christ is--our propitiation, our satisfaction. But the action is in the past.

The intercession is on behalf of the saints alone. Their salvation is secure. It has nothing to do with salvation--nothing whatsoever. Intercession is on behalf of saints, but not in the context of salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
in Heb 4, 7, 8, 9 and chapter 10 we are told that Christ is now ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.


Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''

Heb 9:11
"But WHEN Christ APPEARED as a HIGH PRIEST of the GOOD things
to come HE ENTERED through the GREATER and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE with HANDS, that IS to say, NOT OF THIS creation;..



Heb 9:23
"THEREFORE it was necessary that the COPIES OF the THINGS in
heaven to be cleansed with these, but the HEAVENLY THINGS THEMSELVES
with BETTER sacrifices than these. For Christ did NOT enter a holy place MADE'
with HANDS, a MERE COPY of the TRUE ONE, but into HEAVEN ITSELF"


Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.


Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

But how in the world do you "also" leap off into the wild notion of "Christ is still paying" each time you see that the "Atoning Sacrifice was completed at the cross".

Do you not understand the concept?

I don't believe the SDA concept of the atonement.

Well then you are in luck - the texts you are rejecting above are not written by SDA's

God is the one that illustrates HIS atonement doctrine in Lev 16 "The Day of Atonement".

In the OT, the High Priest had to make an atonement for the sins every year.

I am glad to see that at least you get something right.

Therefore the OT model is not applicable for today. The atonement is not continuous. It is not yearly. It does not continue. It is not "atoning" as continuing into the present.

In 1John 2:2 we are told that Christ was the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the whole world".

That atoning sacrifice was completed at the cross - and it is described by God in Lev 16 as the sacrifice of the sin offering.

That sacrifice is not still going on.

It ended 2000 years ago.

What part of this do you find so difficult?

It is not what Christ is doing right now.

Well - maybe you do get that one part after all.

Christ is not still on the cross nor is he still suffering the atoning sacrifice. It ended 2000 years ago. The sin offering was slain.

Now for the High Priestly work seen in Lev 16 AND in the texts from Hebrews that you are so bent on calling "heresy".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
in Heb 4, 7, 8, 9 and chapter 10 we are told that Christ is now ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.


Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Well then you are in luck - the texts you are rejecting above are not written by SDA's
Bob

NO, the theology is strung together much like the J.W.'s string together verses to demonstrate that Jesus is none other than Michael the archangel, and not deity. You do the same thing. Putting together a string of verses to prove heresy does nothing. Using another translation that is more susceptible to your theology is also deceiving. That is why the J.W.'s use the NWT. Take a look at the same passage in the KJV, and see if you can do the same thing.

Hebrews 7:23-27 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
--First notice that the entire passage is a contrast between the ministry of the ministry of OT Levitical priesthood and the ministry of Christ. It is a contrast of two systems.

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
--In contrast to the OT priesthood, Christ's ministry will never change.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
--This verse is written in two parts.
He is able to save them to the uttermost who come to them.
In other words there is no one whom Christ cannot save.
And then after that person is saved Christ lives to make to make intercession for them. He does not live to make intercession for the unsaved. Nowhere is that taught in Scripture. That is the heresy you teach.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
--WE have the High Priest, not the unsaved. He is holy, harmless, undefiled separate from sinners. The ministry of the High Priest is entirely apart from salvation, entirely apart from the atonement, from making atonement for any kind of sin.

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
--In contrast to the OT priesthood he does not need to offer up sacrifices. His sacrifice was Himself. He did this once when he offered up himself. That is when the atonement was finished. There is not "atoning sacrifice," as you say. The atonement is finished, completely. The intercession being made is on the part of believers only, and has nothing to do with salvation.
You twist the word of God and offer up heresy to those who read this thread.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Bob if you believe what you say I have nothing more than to conclude you are not saved and your soul is in peril of hell. Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

HP: Yet another glaring example of the hypocrisy of DHK and this board in fair enforcement of the rules. DHK clearly judges the salvation of another, proving himself to be nothing other than a whited wall.

 

[DHK]

HP: Yet another glaring example of the hypocrisy of DHK and this board in fair enforcement of the rules. DHK clearly judges the salvation of another, proving himself to be nothing other than a whited wall.

HP, anyone who does not believe in the finished work of Christ for their salvation is a heretic and needs to be saved. I would say the same for a Jehovah's Witness. If that is my understanding of Bob's SDA theology then I have no problem saying it.

However you are quite out of line in the name-calling that you are doing and can be reported for it. I hope you see the difference.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: HP, anyone who does not believe in the finished work of Christ for their salvation is a heretic and needs to be saved.

HP: Here you flat out misrepresent BR and many others as well. Because one does not believe in a literal payment theory as you and the philosophers you obvious follow accept, does not necessitate BR, myself, or any other in not believing in the finished work of Christ. You simply have embraced a false philosophical notion as to what was and what was not accomplished on the cross.

There is only one end to the philosophical notion of the literal payment theory as you express it, and that is one of complete and total determinism.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If that is my understanding of Bob's SDA theology then I have no problem saying it.

HP: There may be a time and a place for such remarks if one feels so led, but if we are to follow the rules of this board, this is not the time or the place to do it. You would also do well to take the following Scriptural admonition when you go judging the salvation of others based on whether or not they agree philosophically with your view of the atonement.

Ro 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[DHK]

HP: There may be a time and a place for such remarks if one feels so led, but if we are to follow the rules of this board, this is not the time or the place to do it. You would also do well to take the following Scriptural admonition when you go judging the salvation of others based on whether or not they agree philosophically with your view of the atonement.

I do follow the rules here. Heresy, especially as it relates to the fundamentals of salvation, is not permitted.

Ro 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

You are quoting Scripture out of context. Quote the verse before and after, and then tell me what it really means.

 

[lori4dogs]

Bob if you believe what you say I have nothing more than to conclude you are not saved and your soul is in peril of hell. Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.

I guess the boards rules don't apply to Moderators. This is sad.

Bob doesn't agree with my theology either but he has never questioned my salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I do follow the rules here.

HP: Hogwash.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob doesn't agree with my theology either but he has never questioned my salvation.

This is an interesting point. I have taken some heat on this board for refusing to say that simply being a member of x, y or z group does not mean a person is not saved.

Nor do I argue my doctrinal points on a "well then in my opinion you are not saved" as if that kind of argument merits any weight at all in determining a correct position.

I think it is far better to get our views clearly stated and to compare notes as to why we believe as we do - than to go around with a "you-are-not-saved-meter" as if we were sitting in God's chair while we debate our various points of view.

in Christ,

Bob