Regeneration Before Faith

[jbh28]

Part 2

It is Calvinists who say they chose God because God chose them. I believe God elected me because in his foreknowledge he could see I would accept Christ after that he revealed Christ to me and drew me to him.

So you have yourself to thank, I have God to thank. I'm glad you got this one right about what I believe.

I chose God because God chose me.
God chose you because you chose God.

I don't disagree with you that all who come were drawn, I agree with you 100%. But John 6:44 does not say that all who are drawn come.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You can insist all day that this verse says all that are drawn will come, it does not say that. It says all that come were drawn. Those are two altogether different things you do not obviously have the discernment to understand.

The problem is you don't have an understanding of what the term draw means. Draw and come are two words that are on two sides of the same coin. You have yet to give a definition of "draw" that doesn't mean they come that agrees with you. I have given one"to cause to come by attracting. God does the drawing, we do the coming. If God draws, it means we come. If we come, it means we were drawn. If we don't come, we were not drawn to Christ. Simple definition of the term. You disagree, but cannot supply any definition from the dictionary to support you.

Jesus said he would draw all men to himself in John 12:32. Well, even you know that not all men come to Christ. But instead of rightly understanding that not all that are drawn will come, you twist and distort the word "all" and say that it does not mean all. [

You have to change the definition of the simple word "all" in John 12:32 to make your doctrine work. I don't have to do that.

You just have to twist the word draw to mean something other than the definition(to cause to come by attracting). All doesn't always mean every single person in the whole world. Have you ever used the term "all" during any conversation? Do you always mean every single person in the whole world that has ever lived or ever will live? Of course not! It's a universal term, it has a context. Draw has a definition"to cause to come by attracting."

If you don't agree with my definition of "draw" then find a dictionary and find one that supports you.

Not everybody has $10. Fortunately, Jesus said whosoever will "let him" take "freely" of the water of life. He is saying any man at any time can take this water. The words "let him" shows that everyone has this ability. And luckily, we don't need any money.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Actually, Jesus say to only "let him" the ones that want to come. "let him doesn't show everybody has the ability, only the ones that want to.

If I say, let everybody that wants to come to my party come in. Does that mean everybody can come to my party? No, I only said let(give ability) the ones that want to. Again, simple misreading of the passage to say something it doesn't say.

No, he didn't want to give up his wealth and position in life.

Right, he wanted his wealth and position in life more than he wanted to come to Christ.

Well obviously he was influenced by Paul and the great earthquake, so he was influenced by God through Paul and the earthquake.

You don't get it, non-Cals do not believe any man can come to Christ without being influenced by the Holy Spirit. But being influenced and enlightened by the Holy Spirit is not regeneration. The scriptures clearly show a man can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and be lost.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Many believe this passage teaches a person can lose their salvation, but I do not believe that is what this passage is teaching.

I agree 100% with you here than you cannot lose your salvation.

I believe it is showing that a man can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit. They have tasted, but not eaten, there is a difference. That man can be shown and understand that he is a sinner that needs to accept Christ, but can turn away in rejection. I believe this is speaking of a person who is once and for all rejecting Christ, and so God rejects him. As God expects the earth to bring forth fruit when he rains on it, when he enlightens a man to understand the gospel he expects that man to receive Christ.

You tell me, does this passage show a man can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and be lost or not?

Calvinists do not understand the difference between being taught and enlightened by the Holy Spirit and being regenerated.

I always find it interesting when people try to say you can lose your salvation by going to this passage. You interpret to mean that the person isn't ever saved here. Some interpret it to mean they are saved, but that if you fall away, you don't have to "renew them again unto repentance" because that would be like getting saved all over again. Others incorrectly interpret it to mean you can lose your salvation.

Let me give you another verse.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

You don't get it, non-Cals do not believe any man can come to Christ without being influenced by the Holy Spirit. But being influenced and enlightened by the Holy Spirit is not regeneration. The scriptures clearly show a man can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and be lost.

You and I agree that not all have the ability to come to Christ apart from the Holy Spirit

I think you have finally got down to the issue. Why do some men accept and others don't. What was different about me and you that we accepted Christ, but the thousands that reject him every day don't believe? We were smarter? Did we know a good deal? Were we any better? The gospel is out. Even nature itself speaks for God. Nobody has an excuse. What was different about us? Why did we believe and they didn't. Why were did we see, but they didn't?

 

[Winman]

I chose God because God chose me.
God chose you because you chose God.

What is wrong with that? The scriptures tell men to choose God.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Did Jesus force his disciples to follow him, or did he give them a choice? If God's grace is irresistable, this question would be nonsense.

Faith always precedes regeneration.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

You have to come to Jesus in faith to get life (regeneration). If Calvinism were true, this verse should say:

And ye will not have life, that ye may come to me.

It doesn't say that though, does it?

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

I don't know how any honest person can ignore John 20:31. It says you must believe to have life. Therefore, this shows an unregenerate person has the ability to express faith in Christ, and if he does so will be made alive (regenerated).

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Does Jesus say the living (regenerate) shall hear his voice and live? No. That would be nonsensical to begin with.

No, it says the dead, the unregenerate shall hear his voice, and those that hear, that is, those who sincerely listen to and believe God's word shall be made alive.

So, there are many scriptures that show the unregenerate man has the ability to place faith in Jesus, and those who do will be made alive, regenerated.

 

[Dr. Walter]

What is wrong with that? The scriptures tell men to choose God..

This whole argument can be reduced to one common denominator. It is an argument over cause and consequences. I will tell you what is wrong with your position. You define the consequences as the cause. You make God's actions the consequences of your actions.

All your arguments reverse the Biblical cause and consequence order. The consequences are all true but they become untruth when you make what the Bible defines as the CAUSE to be the consequences or make what the Bible defines as the CONSEQUENCES to be the cause. This is your modus operandi in all your arguments on this subject.

You present the consequences as Biblical facts and they are Biblical facts considered as consequences but you don't present them as consequences but as the CAUSES. You deny what the Bible presents as CAUSES and try to make them CONSEQUENCES.

Your whole argumentation is built upon reversals of cause and affects.

 

[jbh28]

Does Life = Regeneration?

What is wrong with that? The scriptures tell men to choose God.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Yes, but why does man choose God. What has to happen?

also, the quote is circular. The first part is correct. The 2nd part makes it a circular argument.

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Did Jesus force his disciples to follow him, or did he give them a choice? If God's grace is irresistable, this question would be nonsense.

Jesus did say that he chose the disciples, they didn't chose him.

Faith always precedes regeneration.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
You have to come to Jesus in faith to get life (regeneration). If Calvinism were true, this verse should say:

And ye will not have life, that ye may come to me.

It doesn't say that though, does it?

Are there any unregenerate people that are believing? Are there any regenerate people that are not believing? To me, you teach that a person can be unregenerate and believe.(faith precedes regeneration). To me, the Calvinist teaches that a person can be regenerate and not believe. And I say to me, I have actually heard some teach this. I had one that said you could be regenerate for years before believing.

I say that Faith, repentance and regeneration happen at the exact same time.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

I don't know how any honest person can ignore John 20:31. It says you must believe to have life. Therefore, this shows an unregenerate person has the ability to express faith in Christ, and if he does so will be made alive (regenerated).

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Does Jesus say the living (regenerate) shall hear his voice and live? No. That would be nonsensical to begin with.

No, it says the dead, the unregenerate shall hear his voice, and those that hear, that is, those who sincerely listen to and believe God's word shall be made alive.

Well, the living don't need to be made alive.

So, there are many scriptures that show the unregenerate man has the ability to place faith in Jesus, and those who do will be made alive, regenerated.

Here is something to think about. Does "life" equal "regeneration"? Throughout your post here, you made reference to life being equal to regeneration. Are they one in the same, or are there differences between the whole meaning of the two terms?

I'm going to do a little word study and check back in a few and see what responses we have.

 

[Winman]

You make God's actions the consequences of your actions.

False. I responded to God. God initiated everything. If God did not reveal himself to me through the scriptures, I would be in total ignorance of God and Jesus Christ and could not possibly come to him. And never in a million years would any man imagine the gospel on his own.

It was hearing the word of God that convinced me I was a sinner and that the wages of sin was death. It was God's word that told me that even though I am a sinner that Jesus died for me on the cross and paid for my sins. It was the scriptures that told me Jesus rose from the dead. It was the scriptures that told me if I would trust on Jesus I would be saved.

So how can I claim any credit? If God had not revealed all this to me through his written word, I would be hopelessly lost.

What Calvinsim (and many others) do not understand is that God revealed himself to us in a way that we had the ability to understand and respond to.

Even you must admit that the scriptures are available to all men. All men can sit down and read the scriptures and learn about Jesus if they want to.

And though the deep things of God are only spiritually discerned, the gospel is simple. The scriptures say the gospel is simple. Even little children can understand the scripture. Timothy knew the scriptures from a child that were able to make him wise unto salvation. How could Timothy be made wise unto salvation if he was already regenerated in order to be made wise? You see, this clearly shows Timothy was made wise when he was unregenerate, and then came to Christ and was made alive afterward.

So, God gave his revelation to us in a method that fits our natural abilities he gave us. We can read, or at least hear the scriptures, and we can understand the gospel. And we can trust in Jesus. Our response is not supernatural, it is natural.

100% of the supernatural work is done by God. We come to him as we can, by prayer, trusting in Jesus. And when we do, he supernaturally makes us alive. We have no power in ourselves, he has all the power.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

No man is spiritually alive when he comes to Christ. No, we are spiritually dead when we come to Christ, and if we come he makes us alive.

If you read John 5:40 carefully you will see once and for all that it disproves Calvinism. We are not made alive to be able to come, we come to be made alive.

But, if Jesus did not first tell us to come, then we could not come. So he gets all the credit.

 

[Winman]

Yes, but why does man choose God. What has to happen?

also, the quote is circular. The first part is correct. The 2nd part makes it a circular argument.

Jesus said some men love truth, and some men love evil. That is the only answer I know of provided in scripture.

God does not use circular reasoning. I can't believe you would say that.

Jesus did say that he chose the disciples, they didn't chose him.

Nevertheless, he asked them if they were also going to leave him. He gave them a choice.

Are there any unregenerate people that are believing? Are there any regenerate people that are not believing? To me, you teach that a person can be unregenerate and believe.(faith precedes regeneration). To me, the Calvinist teaches that a person can be regenerate and not believe. And I say to me, I have actually heard some teach this. I had one that said you could be regenerate for years before believing.

The scriptures say the unregenerate can believe, and if they believe on Jesus they will be made alive.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Notice carefully that the first thing mentioned is "But these are written, that ye might believe". We cannot believe of ourselves, we are enabled by being taught by the word of God to be able to trust in Christ. Without the word of God, it would be impossible to trust on Jesus.

Man has the ability to believe or trust, but man cannot believe or trust in something he has never heard of. That is why Paul asked how any man can believe on Jesus if he has not heard of him in Rom 10:14. Paul did not mention anything supernatural here, he simply asks how is it possible for a man to believe in someone he has never heard of.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Do you see anything supernatural in Romans 10:14?

You are correct about Calvinism. In fact, I have a quote from V. A. Voorhiss an associate of R.C. Sproul's in a letter dated 1/6/2000.

When the RSB speaks in the notes of John 3 of "infants being born again," it is speaking of the work of quickening God does in them which inclines their will to Him. In Protestantism, regeneration always precedes faith and if God quickens them, the person will surely come . . .Often, regeneration and our subsequent faith happen apparently simultaneously but logically, regeneration must precede faith. An infant’s faith may not come until years after God has worked by His Holy Spirit to regenerate him or her [emphasis ours]. Two Biblical examples of infants who were born again are seen in Psalm 22:9-10 and Luke 1:15.

Source:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/regenera.htm

You see here that Mr. Voorhis says a person can be regenerate for many years before believing on Christ. This is absolutely unscriptural. John 20:31 says you have to believe to be made alive or regenerated.

Here is something to think about. Does "life" equal "regeneration"? Throughout your post here, you made reference to life being equal to regeneration. Are they one in the same, or are there differences between the whole meaning of the two terms?

That is the very definition of regeneration. Even Calvinists will tell you that regeneration means to be born again, or to be made spiritually alive. Read Mr. Voorhis's comments above.

But the scriptures say you must come to Jesus (which is the same as believing) to be made alive. So faith precedes regeneration, therefore the unregenerate must have the ability to believe.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I chose God because God chose me.
God chose you because you chose God.


What is wrong with that? The scriptures tell men to choose God

You asked this question in regard to the contrast presented you above. You placed God's choice as consequential to your choice. Your choice you said is the CAUSE for God's choice.

However, the Scriptures categorically deny that when God looked down from heaven that he saw any that would man "seek" (act of the will) after God. God first must seek man or man will not seek God. If you agree with this or not, it proves your statement is false and is an attempt to reverse cause and effects because according to Scripture God must CHOOSE to seek first.

So, that is what is wrong with your statement and question. Therefore God did not choose you BECAUSE you chose God. When God looked down to see, he found NONE, NOT ONE, who would choose Him first.

Every argument, every scripture you use for your arguments deal with consequences that you attempt to argue as causes for salvation or they deal with instrumental causes you try to argue are primary causes in salvation. This is your modus operandi for every text and every argument you use.

False. I responded to God. God initiated everything. If God did not reveal himself to me through the scriptures, I would be in total ignorance of God and Jesus Christ and could not possibly come to him. And never in a million years would any man imagine the gospel on his own.

It was hearing the word of God that convinced me I was a sinner and that the wages of sin was death. It was God's word that told me that even though I am a sinner that Jesus died for me on the cross and paid for my sins. It was the scriptures that told me Jesus rose from the dead. It was the scriptures that told me if I would trust on Jesus I would be saved.

So how can I claim any credit? If God had not revealed all this to me through his written word, I would be hopelessly lost.

What Calvinsim (and many others) do not understand is that God revealed himself to us in a way that we had the ability to understand and respond to.

Even you must admit that the scriptures are available to all men. All men can sit down and read the scriptures and learn about Jesus if they want to.

And though the deep things of God are only spiritually discerned, the gospel is simple. The scriptures say the gospel is simple. Even little children can understand the scripture. Timothy knew the scriptures from a child that were able to make him wise unto salvation. How could Timothy be made wise unto salvation if he was already regenerated in order to be made wise? You see, this clearly shows Timothy was made wise when he was unregenerate, and then came to Christ and was made alive afterward.

So, God gave his revelation to us in a method that fits our natural abilities he gave us. We can read, or at least hear the scriptures, and we can understand the gospel. And we can trust in Jesus. Our response is not supernatural, it is natural.

100% of the supernatural work is done by God. We come to him as we can, by prayer, trusting in Jesus. And when we do, he supernaturally makes us alive. We have no power in ourselves, he has all the power.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

No man is spiritually alive when he comes to Christ. No, we are spiritually dead when we come to Christ, and if we come he makes us alive.

If you read John 5:40 carefully you will see once and for all that it disproves Calvinism. We are not made alive to be able to come, we come to be made alive.

But, if Jesus did not first tell us to come, then we could not come. So he gets all the credit.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have a question.

Scriptures are clear that God takes the initiative to save us. We cannot save ourselves by any activity.

Now the question I have is this: Are scriptures talking about the fact that God came up with a plan of his own accord and implemented salvation by Jesus willingly going to the cross? And once applied it applys for all who will take the faith? Indiscrimenantly

Or are scritpures talking about even the the propensity to be saved or wanting to be saved. We don't want salvation until God "rearranges our synaptic passages" so that we at some point think we need God's salvation?

 

[Winman]

!!!!

God first must seek man or man will not seek God.

Apparently you have not understood one thing I have said. I agree with you 100% here. Unless God had revealed to me that I was a sinner who was deserving of going to hell for my sins and that Jesus died to pay my sin debt and rose again, I would have never sought Jesus.

I simply responded to God. God initiated everything. He called, I answered.

Every argument, every scripture you use for your arguments deal with consequences that you attempt to argue as causes for salvation or they deal with instrumental causes you try to argue are primary causes in salvation. This is your modus operandi for every text and every argument you use.

I can barely follow what you are saying here. Look, I just show scripture that clearly shows a man must first believe before he can be regenerated or made alive.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

What does this verse say comes first? God's Word! (But these are written). Do you see God is the one who initiates salvation through his word here?

But then it clearly says we must believe God's word to have life. So faith precedes regeneration.

#1 one must hear God's word

#2 one must believe God's word

#3 one who hears and believes God's word is regenerated

This is shown MANY times in scripture.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

There is nothing convoluted about what I am teaching, all of these scriptures are in perfect harmony with each other. It is Calvinism that has to twist and wrest the scriptures (in vain) to make them fit their man-made system.

 

[Winman]

I have a question.

Scriptures are clear that God takes the initiative to save us. We cannot save ourselves by any activity.

Now the question I have is this: Are scriptures talking about the fact that God came up with a plan of his own accord and implemented salvation by Jesus willingly going to the cross? And once applied it applys for all who will take the faith? Indiscrimenantly

Or are scritpures talking about even the the propensity to be saved or wanting to be saved. We don't want salvation until God "rearranges our synaptic passages" so that we at some point think we need God's salvation?

Well, I think Spurgeon wonderfully answered this in his sermon The Marvellous Magnet. Jesus draws us with his love. Even the hardest sinner wants to be loved by someone, and even the most callous person is attracted to someone who shows love to him. Spurgeon said it was Christ's death that draws us. Though we were wicked sinners deserving of death, he was willing to die in our place. How can we not love Jesus?

So, as Spurgeon said, any man at all that hears the gospel is drawn to some degree, but some men pull back and fight this loving drawing of Jesus, some to the point where Jesus lets them go.

http://www.recoverthegospel.com/Old Recover the Gospel Site/Spurgeon/Spurgeon 1001-2000/1717.pdf

a living Savior men may love, but a crucified Savior they must love. If they perceive that he loved them, and gave himself for
them, their hearts are stolen away: the city of Mansoul is captured before the siege begins, when the Prince Emanuel uncovers the beauties of his dying love before the eyes of the rebellious ones.

Look at Mary, she had lived a very sinful life. But when she realized Jesus loved her and wanted to save her, she loved Jesus with all her heart.

Luke 7:36 And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.
37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Love never forces. Jesus does not force us to love him, he died for us to show he loves us, and lets us choose for ourselves if we desire to love him back. Many do, but some love their sin even more than Jesus and wish to continue in it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Like I said, you make arguments that reverse cause and effects or confuse instrumental causes with primary causes.

The Bible teaches that life comes before conversion as well as after conversion - it teaches both. You center on the scriptures that teach the latter but reject the scriptures that teach the former. Life eternal that follows belief is CONSEQUENTIAL to LIFE eternal that precedes belief which is CAUSAL.

You don't understand, or don't accept the distinction between regeneration and adoption. The first has to do with your PERSON while the latter has to do with your LEGAL POSITION before God. Regeneration is quickening or IMPARTATION of spiritual life directly by the Spirit of God whereas justification is IMPUTATION of eternal life by the Law of God or the consequence of being declared righteous by the Law and legally removed from under condemnation and granted life legally.

The former makes us children of God by birth while the latter legally makes us "sons" by adoption.

Both "justification" and "adoption" are LEGAL terms and refer to a LEGAL life and sonship according to law. In contrast "regeneration" and "child" are FAMILY terms and refer to FAMILY life and sonship by birth.

John 1:12 deals with legal and positional sonship by adoption whereas John 1:13 deals with family sonship by new birth.

The Spirit of God first quickens the spiritual dead changing you from a child of Satan to a child of God manifested in your repudiation of sin and faith in Christ which obtains justification (remission of sins, imputed righteousness) or legal life and sonship before the Law of God.

Will you accept this? Probably not, but it is still the truth. You simply belief the second half (consequences) but reject the first half (causes).

Apparently you have not understood one thing I have said. I agree with you 100% here. Unless God had revealed to me that I was a sinner who was deserving of going to hell for my sins and that Jesus died to pay my sin debt and rose again, I would have never sought Jesus.

I simply responded to God. God initiated everything. He called, I answered.



I can barely follow what you are saying here. Look, I just show scripture that clearly shows a man must first believe before he can be regenerated or made alive.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

What does this verse say comes first? God's Word! (But these are written). Do you see God is the one who initiates salvation through his word here?

But then it clearly says we must believe God's word to have life. So faith precedes regeneration.

#1 one must hear God's word

#2 one must believe God's word

#3 one who hears and believes God's word is regenerated

This is shown MANY times in scripture.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

There is nothing convoluted about what I am teaching, all of these scriptures are in perfect harmony with each other. It is Calvinism that has to twist and wrest the scriptures (in vain) to make them fit their man-made system.

 

[Winman]

Like I said, you make arguments that reverse cause and effects or confuse instrumental causes with primary causes.

What is this, science class? This is the problem, you are trying to understand scripture through natural means. I have shown you now multiple times that the scriptures clearly show a person must first believe to have life. It is not me that is getting it backwards, it is you.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Calvinism teaches that a man must have life (be regenerated) before he can come to Jesus. Jesus taught exactly the opposite, that a man must first come to him to have life (be regenerated).

You can make all the fancy arguments you want, this verse is very easy to understand.

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is theology class not a science class and whether you accept it or not there is a distinct difference between regeneration and justification in regard to eternal life.

Your quote of John 5:40 does not contradict one iota of what I have said. Nothing prevents the worst of men from coming to Christ but their own depraved will that refuses to do so. And nothing can be attributed to any sinner coming to Christ but the sovereign grace of God.

Your taking this text out of its context. In this context Jesus admits they profess to believe Moses or the scriptures. So the Word of God had been given unto them and they professed to believe the scriptures but read what Jesus says as the preface to John 5:40

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The word was given unto them and they professed they believed it, but the Father's work in giving the word in another sense (INTERNAL) had not occurred within them. He would further explain this as the "work of God" (Jn. 6:29) performed within a person called drawing where God Himself teaches a person and "ALL" that have been taught "cometh" to Christ (Jn. 6:44-45).

This internal work is inclusive of regeneration that produces coming or believing which obtains JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE or life granted by satisfaction of the law of God by Jesus Christ.

Regeneration is not justification. Jesus is talking about life by justification not life by new birth. Coming is the consequence of drawing and drawing is the regenerating work of God that is manifested in repentance from sin and faith in Christ or coming to Christ.

What is this, science class? This is the problem, you are trying to understand scripture through natural means. I have shown you now multiple times that the scriptures clearly show a person must first believe to have life. It is not me that is getting it backwards, it is you.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Calvinism teaches that a man must have life (be regenerated) before he can come to Jesus. Jesus taught exactly the opposite, that a man must first come to him to have life (be regenerated).

You can make all the fancy arguments you want, this verse is very easy to understand.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Follow me in what I am going to say just to humor please. What is sin? ANSWER: Sin is the transgression of God's Law (I Jn. 3:6). What is the consequence of sin? ANSWER: Condemnation by the law unto death (Rom. 6:23).

What must Christ provide to save any sinner from the condemnation of the Law? ANSWER: He must justify you before the Law. How? ANSWER: He must satisfy the penalty of sin demanded by the Law AND He must satisfy the standard of righteousness required by the Law (Rom. 4:5-8; 23-25).

In other words the Law's verdict which is "death" must be reversed by Christ in your behalf from the verdict of "death" to the verdict of "life" by the Law! This is Justificaiton of life.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This is not REGENERATION or REGENERATIVE life it is LEGAL LIFE or DECLARATIVE LIFE as the reward of satisfying the Law's demands by Christ. The word "justification" does not refer to regeneration or include regeneration and therefore "justification OF LIFE" does not refer to regenerative life but LEGAL life.

You are confusing life that comes by regeneration with life that comes by justification. The former is IMPARTED directly by the Spirit of God whereas the latter is IMPUTED by faith in the provision of Christ that satisfies the LAW of God.

John 1:12 refers to justification but John 1:13 refers to regeneration. John 1:13 is given as the CAUSE for sonship by justification/adoption in John 1:12.

John 5:40 refers to "justication of life" or eternal life as a consequence of justification by faith.

 

[jaigner]

I don't know anyone who believe that regeneration comes before faith. That is certainly not a tenet of reformed or Calvinist theology.

While they believe in election, they believe the faith was predestined and is the regenerating element of salvation. I don't take 5-point Calvinism entirely, but the thrust of the doctrines is to preserve the sovereignty of God and is less based on the human component.

Calvin himself devoted precious little effort toward discussing election in the Institutes. His student, Beza, was the one who developed it to its furthest extent.

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend you should get out more and read more as there are many who believe what I have stated. All early prominent Baptist confessions of faith explicitly state that repentance and faith are FRUITS of regeneration.

I don't know anyone who believe that regeneration comes before faith. That is certainly not a tenet of reformed or Calvinist theology.

While they believe in election, they believe the faith was predestined and is the regenerating element of salvation. I don't take 5-point Calvinism entirely, but the thrust of the doctrines is to preserve the sovereignty of God and is less based on the human component.

Calvin himself devoted precious little effort toward discussing election in the Institutes. His student, Beza, was the one who developed it to its furthest extent.

 

[Winman]

Your quote of John 5:40 does not contradict one iota of what I have said. Nothing prevents the worst of men from coming to Christ but their own depraved will that refuses to do so. And nothing can be attributed to any sinner coming to Christ but the sovereign grace of God.

John 5:40 absolutely contradicts what you believe. You believe a person must be regenerated, that is, born again and made spiritually alive before they can have the ability to come to Jesus.

But Jesus showed you must first come to him as an unregenerate person to receive life (regeneration, born again, spiritually alive).

I do not disagree with you that no man can come to Christ without the grace of God. Where we disagree is what this grace is. You believe it to be regeneration, which cannot be true.

I believe this grace of God is the Spirit's drawing through the revealed word of God. It is the sower sowing the seed of the word of God.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Calvinism and Doctrines of Grace teach that God only gives saving grace to his elect, but the word of God says the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men without exception. Even a Calvinist or Doctrine of Gracer must admit the word of God is available to all men without exception.

And does it say this grace regenerates? No, it says it teaches.

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

This is why Jesus said no man can come unless he has heard and LEARNED of the Father.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jesus did not say those who have been regenerated, that is, born again and made spiritually alive come to him, he said those who have heard, been taught, and learned of the Father come to him. And how do you hear from God? I don't know about you, but God did not speak to me from heaven, or come to me in a dream like the ancient prophets, he spoke to me through the scriptures.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

It is not a magical, mystical thing. God first shows his grace (God initiates) to us as natural men and gives his revelation (the scriptures) to us in a way that a natural man can understand and respond to. Our response to this grace in coming to Jesus is not supernatural, but God's response in saving those who come to Jesus is a supernatural work.

1 Cor 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

My grandfather was a farmer, and as a boy I helped him plant crops on a few occasions. I have inserted the seed in the soil and it was watered by sprinklers. These are natural acts any man can perform. But it is God who gave the seed life and causes it to grow, no man can do this.

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 5:40 absolutely contradicts what you believe. You believe a person must be regenerated, that is, born again and made spiritually alive before they can have the ability to come to Jesus.

But Jesus showed you must first come to him as an unregenerate person to receive life (regeneration, born again, spiritually alive).

I do not disagree with you that no man can come to Christ without the grace of God. Where we disagree is what this grace is. You believe it to be regeneration, which cannot be true.

I believe this grace of God is the Spirit's drawing through the revealed word of God. It is the sower sowing the seed of the word of God.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Calvinism and Doctrines of Grace teach that God only gives saving grace to his elect, but the word of God says the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men without exception. Even a Calvinist or Doctrine of Gracer must admit the word of God is available to all men without exception.

And does it say this grace regenerates? No, it says it teaches.

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

This is why Jesus said no man can come unless he has heard and LEARNED of the Father.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jesus did not say those who have been regenerated, that is, born again and made spiritually alive come to him, he said those who have heard, been taught, and learned of the Father come to him. And how do you hear from God? I don't know about you, but God did not speak to me from heaven, or come to me in a dream like the ancient prophets, he spoke to me through the scriptures.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

It is not a magical, mystical thing. God first shows his grace (God initiates) to us as natural men and gives his revelation (the scriptures) to us in a way that a natural man can understand and respond to. Our response to this grace in coming to Jesus is not supernatural, but God's response in saving those who come to Jesus is a supernatural work.

1 Cor 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

My grandfather was a farmer, and as a boy I helped him plant crops on a few occasions. I have inserted the seed in the soil and it was watered by sprinklers. These are natural acts any man can perform. But it is God who gave the seed life and causes it to grow, no man can do this.

I perfectly understand where you are coming from and what you believe and why you interpret the scriptures the way you do. I once was in your shoes using the very same arguments.

I think you hit on a very important issue and that is we both believe that God's grace precedes the human response but we disagree on what is inclusive in that preceding grace.

I really do not disagree with anything you have stated in regard to human responsibility and aspects of conversion to the gospel.

You believe that John 6:45 is the key to understanding how God deals with people preceding their decision to come to Christ and so do I.

I believe we disagree on the meaning of regeneration. A simply definition is quickening or giving life but I don't believe that simple meaning does justice to how other scriptues define it and what is inclusive in producing spiritual life.

For example, you admit that preceding coming to Christ in faith God must "teach" or instruct that person and we both include that in what verse 44 calls drawing.

May I point out that divine quickening is also described in terms of instruction by God and is inseparable from specific knowlege being revealed/conveyed to a person.

For example, take Ephesians 4:17-19. This passage is descriptive of the unregenerate state or the state alienated from the life of God. Interestingly, this state is described in terms of darkness in contrast to light and ignorance in contrast to knowledge. The lost unregenerated state is a state of darkness and ignorance. If you remove that essential darkness and ignorance it is no longer the unregenerated state but a regenerated state.

In 2 Corinthians 3:3-6 and 4:6 the regenerated state is described in the very reverse metaphors and terms of Ephesians 4:17-19. The regenerated state is the work of a creative act of God where darkness is removed, light is created inside man and knowlege replaces ignorance.

This transfer from darkness to light, from specific ignorance to specific knowlege is what Jesus calls "eternal life" (Jn 17:3).

Another issue I believe you simply have not considered or are completely unaware of is the consequences of saving faith and that is what is inclusive in the doctrine of justification. Death is a direct consequence of LEGAL CONDEMNATION under the Law of God. Life is a direct consequence of LEGAL JUSTIFICATION under the law of God by the merits of Jesus Christ as your substitute.

What I believe you fail to grasp is that there are two different kinds of eternal life clearly taught in the Bible. The first kind has to do with a CREATIVE act of God in your PERSON whereby specific knowledge is revealed that is metaphorical light that removes specific darkness. The second kind has to do with a LEGAL act of God and your POSITION in reference to the Law of God. The first is the cause for you TURNING your mind and heart from sin to Christ while the latter is the consequence of your choosing to turn from sin to faith in Christ.

Regeneration and "justification of life" are not one and the same. Justification of eternal life always results from your faith in Christ and that is what John 6:40 and every other passage where believing in Christ is set forth as the condition to obtain eternal life. As you know we are justified "by faith" and therefore faith in Christ is the condition for justification, which is a LEGAL action where the verdict of the law has been changed from condemnation unto death to justification unto life.

In direct contrast regeneration is never conditioned upon the will of man or any action by man but is referred to as a CREATIVE ACT of God (2 Cor. 4:6; Jn. 1:13; James 1:18; 1 Jn. 5:1; etc.).

The Bible teaches both forms of eternal life and they are always distinguished from each other by specific contextual characteristics. Regeneration is always in a context of only what God can do whereas "justification of life" is always man's conditional response to faith in Christ.

You are confusing one with the other and pitting one against the other and as long as you do that you will always have problems with certain texts. In contrast, I can take every text that conditions eternal life upon beleiving in Christ and clearly demonstrate from the overall context of the Bible that this refers to JUSTIFICATION not REGENERATION or the creative act of God. I can take all the texts that deal with regeneration not justification. Regeneration is the CREATIVE act of God where the will of man is excluded (John 1:13; 2 Cor. 4:6; James 1:18; etc.) but has reference to divine revelation within man that removes darkness and ignorance by divine fiat so that man is no longer "alienated from the life of God through ignorance that is in him" (Eph. 4:18). Thus harmonize all scripture by properly distinguishing between regenerative imparted life and judicial imputed life.

 

[MB]

DR walter says;

The Bible teaches that life comes before conversion as well as after conversion - it teaches both. You center on the scriptures that teach the latter but reject the scriptures that teach the former. Life eternal that follows belief is CONSEQUENTIAL to LIFE eternal that precedes belief which is CAUSAL.

Then how come you haven't proved this to be true with scripture? All you've done so far is claim this is so by trying to convince us you have a better understanding of scripture than anyone else. When shown what the scripture actually says you deny and rationalize it away. Paul was very clear on this grace comes through faith and with out faith you have no grace by which to be saved. Eph 2:8
MB

 

[Dr. Walter]

DR walter says;

Then how come you haven't proved this to be true with scripture? All you've done so far is claim this is so by trying to convince us you have a better understanding of scripture than anyone else. When shown what the scripture actually says you deny and rationalize it away. Paul was very clear on this grace comes through faith and with out faith you have no grace by which to be saved. Eph 2:8
MB

I believe that most on this forum would not argue that regeneration and justification are synonyms. I did present Romans 5:18 and the phrase "justification of life" as a direct consequence of "righteousness" obtained by representation by Christ. Romans 5:18 has reference to our relationship to the Law in connection with Adam and Christ. We are either condemned under the law through Adam unto death or justified under the Law through Christ unto life. The Law is God's standard for sin and righteousness for condemnation unto death or justification unto life. Both death and life are verdicts passed by the law in regard to any life it examines. When we are examined in Adam the verdict is condemnation unto death but when we are examined in Christ the verdict is justification unto life. What Adam did by representation obtains the verdict in our behalf. What Christ did by representation obtains the verdict in our behalf. It all rests upon TWO men and their representative actions - disobedience by Adam - obedience by Christ.

This "life" obtained by justification through the righteousness of Christ is a LEGAL POSITION of life IMPUTED to our account as "justification" has to do with a right standing under the Law. This is not regenerative life.

Regenerative life is a CREATIVE act of God not a LEGAL act. Regeneration has to do with our PERSON not our POSITION. Regeneration always EXCLUDES human cooperation of the will (Jn. 1:13; James 1:18, I Jn. 5:1; 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10a). Justification of life always INCLUDES human cooperation of the will (Jn. 1:12; 3:16; 5:40; etc.).

They both occur inseparable in a cause and affect sequence with each other. Regeneration precedes justification but is inclusive in the term conversion as it is God who turns us from sin to Christ (regeneration) but we willing turn from sin to Christ (justification). There is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever any more than a unregenerated beleiver.

Calvinism and Arminianism simply take sides with only ONE or the other while pitting their chosen ONE against the other when BOTH are true and inseparable from each other but in the proper sequence with each other as spiritual life logically precedes judicial life just God making us willing by turning our hearts from sin to Christ precedes our willingness to turn from sin to Christ.