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The Two Olive Trees in Romans 11
- Thread starter Dr. Walter
- Start date
Care to give me some scripture to back up your idea that God is going to reestablish animal sacrifice to the lead the Jews to Christ?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Didn't say they were going to be used to lead the Jews to Christ. What I said was that reborn Jews - that means - saved Jews - that means those who are already believers in Christ will enter the millennium. Ezek 42:13;
An interesting event of providence tonight, before I read your post here, my wife and I were reading through Hosea 1 and 2 and we noticed the verse you quoted and we noticed 1:11, "Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great [shall be] the day of Jezreel." We thought how that some people say, aha! there it is, this is for Jews only, and has nothing to do with the church.
Then we saw the definition of what a Jew is from Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
So we said, this gathering spoken of is for Jews only? Hallelujah! We are Jews, so it is for us!
Then we rembered that Paul had said something about a "gathering", so we looked it up and found it in Ephesians 1:10:...he might gather together in one all things in Christ,..."; and we found how the "one" is constituted in Eph 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Dr. Walter said:
The New Covenant is in effect since the death of Christ:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
I could not agree with you more, except for the words "will be". I would say that the savlation of "all Israel" IS under the new covenant.
The New Covenant is in effect since the death of Christ:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Really? You didn't they would be used to lead Jews to Christ? Let's see what you posted: "Their design was to reveal sin and lead to Christ. In regard to Israel they did not accomplish that goal. However, with reborn and restored Israel during the millennium they will be used for instruction once again not to replace the cross but to illustrate it. In regard to the church age there are done away with in regard to administrations but they are not done away with in regard to teaching aids to illustrate the cross."
You clearly said they will be used to lead Jews to Christ in the millennium.
Now, Ezekiel 42:13 doesn't support your view. Again, find me some scriptures discussing God sanctioning sacrifice for the Jews during the millennium.
The abomination of desolation is performed by the anti Christ during the tribulation. What gives you the idea that it has already happened?
MB
"....no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God...."
Amen Brother. Thanks for sharing this J.D.
"And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise."
Dr. Walter
New Member
You are misinterpreting my statement. If you will kindly reread it, all I said was in the OLD TESTAMENT it did not lead Israel to Christ. In the Millennialium it will be used for instruction for those ALREADY REBORN Israelites. These are apples and oranges. The former it was being used to lead to salvation in the latter it was used to instruct the saved. Quite a difference don't you think?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Ezekiel 36
My friends, the Preterist makes the same basic mistake as the A-millennialist in regard to national Israel.
Just because there is but one way of salvation for both Jew and Gentile and just because the Old Testament soteriological statements are applied to New Testament gentiles that does not mean that is their final application nor does it mean that God's election of National Israel to Salvation will not one day be fulfilled as well. If you think about it all Old Testament soteriological truths must be applied to anyone God saves at any future time as there is only one way of salvation from Genesis to Revelation.
Ezekiel 36 speaks of a future day yet unfulfilled concerning divided Israel being reunited under David. The Gentiles were never in a divided state with each other. Only national Israel was ever in a divided state with each other. It also predicts the salvation of all Israel in the valley of dry bones.
I would suggest to you that it is a dangerous thing to oppose Israel in soteriological prophecy because even you cannot deny they were the elect nation of God (Deut. 7:7-9; 9:5-7) and that election was based upon covenant promises to the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and applied to ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL even then and in soteriologial terms. This election is spoken of in soteriological expressions and election unto salvation is always effectual in the time appointed by God.
Romans 11:25-32 cannot honestly be construed in any other sense then national salvation of ethnic Israel at the Lords Return (Rev. 1:7; 7:1-8). Any attempt to apply it to any kind of MIXTURE of elect will not stand up to the context.
My friends, the Preterist makes the same basic mistake as the A-millennialist in regard to national Israel.
Just because there is but one way of salvation for both Jew and Gentile and just because the Old Testament soteriological statements are applied to New Testament gentiles that does not mean that is their final application nor does it mean that God's election of National Israel to Salvation will not one day be fulfilled as well. If you think about it all Old Testament soteriological truths must be applied to anyone God saves at any future time as there is only one way of salvation from Genesis to Revelation.
Ezekiel 36 speaks of a future day yet unfulfilled concerning divided Israel being reunited under David. The Gentiles were never in a divided state with each other. Only national Israel was ever in a divided state with each other. It also predicts the salvation of all Israel in the valley of dry bones.
I would suggest to you that it is a dangerous thing to oppose Israel in soteriological prophecy because even you cannot deny they were the elect nation of God (Deut. 7:7-9; 9:5-7) and that election was based upon covenant promises to the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and applied to ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL even then and in soteriologial terms. This election is spoken of in soteriological expressions and election unto salvation is always effectual in the time appointed by God.
Romans 11:25-32 cannot honestly be construed in any other sense then national salvation of ethnic Israel at the Lords Return (Rev. 1:7; 7:1-8). Any attempt to apply it to any kind of MIXTURE of elect will not stand up to the context.
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The law is being used as instruction in Christ today. In fact, a few days ago I preached on Hebrews 10 highlighting how the law pointed to Christ, it was a shadow of good things to come. I did not, however, get up and kill a goat and take its blood into a vailed room. For one thing it would be dishonoring to God considering that the great sacrifice that pointed to has come and the old is taken away by Him. For another, we have something better today = the gospel. The Jews were looking at Christ and the gospel through shadows, catching vague glimpses they didn't truly understand. We, in the aftermath of Christ's redemptive work, see the very image through the gospel. Why in the world are people ever going to trade in the very image of Christ for a shadow? Why are people going to leave the clear, the better, the true for vague glimpses? It doesn't make a single lick of sense and is against the entirety of the NT. Not to mention the fact that I can't think of a single verse that speaks of this Jewish millennium you keep rattling on about.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Although I am not a hyper-dispensationalists, I do beleive we are in a different dispensation today than prior to the cross or after the coming of Christ. Hence, today we use the law and the types as teaching instruments without administering them.
In the Millennium it is not an either/or but both. The very image as well as the types will be used together in this Jewish dispensation and Jesus Christ will personally interpret the intricacies of the types to harmonize with the gospel.
You must admit at least that no one today understands fully the intricate truths found in the types of the ceremonial laws in the Old Testament. Then, they will and so will the Jewish nation for the first time in their history. The gospel will be illustrated in the fullness of Moses under Christ to National Israel and the entire world (Isa. 66).
That is one of the whackiest things I've ever heard. One scripture that supports that view point please.
Let me ask you one question: if you have the very image, why the need of the shadow? The Jews, prior to the cross, had the shadows in absence of the very image (Heb. 10). The law, although glorious, was less glorious than what we have now (2 Cor. 3). This is in keeping with the fact that the very image of a person is far superior than a shadow. A shadow gives only vague facts, while the very image gives in-depth detail. We have something better than what they had (Heb. 7:19; 8:6; 11:40) Not only so, but read Hebrews 9:1-12. He plainly there states that, "the Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while the first tabernacle was yet standing: which was a figure for the time then present." These were things for a time in the past before Christ, less glorious than the plain and clear image of Christ, and now we have something better. When you have a clear picture of someone, you don't desire a shadowy image, a vague outline that needs illumination from a better source of light to bring things into focus. Why then, when face to face with Christ, our eyes beholding His wonderful face, would we need a goat to be killed and its blood sprinkled on the mercy seat?
Dr. Walter
New Member
If you have ever taught through the book of Levitcus you must know that you as well as every commentator you have read plays guessing games with many of the details and what they mean. The types are complex in their details in regard to the offerings, in regard to the tabernacle and its furniture and to countless of other things. We are steeped in ignorance in much of these things so why is it "whackiest" to suggest that the Master teacher will enlighten his people on the very things He spent so much detailed attention with?
Even if you reject a millennium and a future rebuilding of the temple with its ceremonial systems for any reason, would you not want to know how those details apply to Christ and our salvation? What better way for the Master Himself to provide a "show and tell" instruction?
Even if you reject a millennium and a future rebuilding of the temple with its ceremonial systems for any reason, would you not want to know how those details apply to Christ and our salvation? What better way for the Master Himself to provide a "show and tell" instruction?
A simple comparison of scripture will show what the abomination of desolation was:
When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), Mt 24:15
But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: MK 13:14
But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. Lu 21:20
The abomination of desolation was the Roman armies that were to destroy Jerusalem. See also:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301
Revelation 21:22 - "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."
There's no need for a physical temple to teach God's people, we'll have the real thing. The temple was itself a shadow of Christ. The true temple, the better temple, will be there and we'll be adoring Him. Christ doesn't need a material temple to teach us. If an imperfect preacher using nothing more than the scriptures can teach God's people what those things meant and how much better Christ is, how much more can the Great Preacher teach His people without the need of a material temple and spilling the blood of animals! I have no desire to witness a blood sacrifice in a reconstructed temple because I have the scriptural account of a better sacrifice, one that actually put away sins, one that actually saved me, and one that made the other sacrifices and oblations to cease forever!
Dr. Walter
New Member
Dr. Walter
New Member
I used to hold this position along with its counterpart interpretation to Daniel 9:26. However, Matthew 24:29 and the words "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and the events of vv. 30-31 will not harmonize with that position. Any way you cut it, even your position must acknowledge there is a secondary and final fulfilment of verses 30-31 yet in the future to the actual literal second coming of Christ from heaven when every eye sees Him. That being said, this also provides for a secondary application of Matthew 24:15-18 due to the same words "immediately after".