The Two Olive Trees in Romans 11

[RAdam]

There is a "he" in verse 27. That pronoun links back to the previous verse and must be referring to one of the persons mentioned therein. In verse 26 there is "Messiah" and there are "the people of the prince that shall come." You have a singular noun and a plural noun. Thus, the "he", being itself a singular pronoun, must link up with the singular noun in Verse 26, the Messiah. Verse 26 doesn't speak of the "prince that shall come" as a noun, but rather it is speaking of the "people of the prince that shall come." Verse 27 would have had to say "the prince that shall come" in order for us to understand this verse referring to him. It's simple english, really.

The 69 weeks ended at His baptism, the only point in the NT clearly dated within the bible beyond dispute, the 15th year of Tiberius Caeser. It was His annointing, when the Holy Ghost descended on Him in the form of a dove, and the Father said from heaven, "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." From that point forward He was carrying about His duties as Messiah. Shortly after that event He came into Nazareth and read from Isaiah 61, stated that the text was fullfilled, which says, "the Lord hath annointed me..." For 3 and a half years He continued on His public ministry until He was cut off, died at the cross. That is half of a prophetic week, half of 7 years. At that point He caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The vail in the temple was rent in twain, and God no longer was pleased in any way with animal sacrifice. The real sacrifice had occured.

 

[kyredneck]

I used to hold this position along with its counterpart interpretation to Daniel 9:26. However, Matthew 24:29 and the words "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and the events of vv. 30-31 will not harmonize with that position.

No, it harmonizes perfectly.

Mt 24:29 is simply hyperbole, apocalyptic language (you know, the scriptures contain quite a bit of it) showing that the light of the Old Covenant would cease to shine immediately after the tribulation of those days. See Gen 37:9,10; Rev 12:1.

Any way you cut it, even your position must acknowledge there is a secondary and final fulfilment of verses 30-31 yet in the future to the actual literal second coming of Christ from heaven when every eye sees Him.

No, it doesn't.

God's messengers have been calling in the elect with the sound of the gospel trumpet for two millennia now.

That being said, this also provides for a secondary application of Matthew 24:15-18 due to the same words "immediately after".

God can have secondary or multiple fulfillments of His word, that's not for me to dictate, God forbid. But at Christ's next coming I see the end, not some 1000 year reign on earth:

“.....Christ`s, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor 15:23,24

His kingdom is not of this world. It never has been. Why do you think that it will be of this world?

 

[kyredneck]

There is a "he" in verse 27. That pronoun links back to the previous verse and must be referring to one of the persons mentioned therein. In verse 26 there is "Messiah" and there are "the people of the prince that shall come." You have a singular noun and a plural noun. Thus, the "he", being itself a singular pronoun, must link up with the singular noun in Verse 26, the Messiah. Verse 26 doesn't speak of the "prince that shall come" as a noun, but rather it is speaking of the "people of the prince that shall come." Verse 27 would have had to say "the prince that shall come" in order for us to understand this verse referring to him. It's simple english, really.

The 69 weeks ended at His baptism, the only point in the NT clearly dated within the bible beyond dispute, the 15th year of Tiberius Caeser. It was His annointing, when the Holy Ghost descended on Him in the form of a dove, and the Father said from heaven, "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." From that point forward He was carrying about His duties as Messiah. Shortly after that event He came into Nazareth and read from Isaiah 61, stated that the text was fullfilled, which says, "the Lord hath annointed me..." For 3 and a half years He continued on His public ministry until He was cut off, died at the cross. That is half of a prophetic week, half of 7 years. At that point He caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The vail in the temple was rent in twain, and God no longer was pleased in any way with animal sacrifice. The real sacrifice had occured.

Excellent. Thank you Brother.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The term "immediately after" is a TIME restriction further qualified by "then" in verse 30 and 31. This discourse began with a question of TIMING concerning not merely "when these things" occur but when is "the end of the world."

Call the contents of events in verse 29 whatever you want but in regard to TIMING the "then" of His visible coming in the clouds, with a trumpt, sending angels FROM THE CLOUDS to gather His elect is the very same coming in 1 Thes. 4:15-17 where he brings the dead in Christ WITH HIM to raise the dead bodies from the graves and glorify the living, the very same coming in Revelation 1:7; 19:11-19. If not, then Christ never answered the question when "the end of the world" will come.

Therefore, like it or not, Matthew 24:29-31 has a yet future application to A.D. 70 and must or Christ never spoke of His own return at the end of the world and never answered their questions as to "the sign" of the end of the world.

If there is a greater fulfillment of Matthew 24:29-31 at the end of this world with the visible return of Jesus Christ from heaven then there is a secondary and final fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-28 demanded by the connector "immediately after."

 

[kyredneck]

The term "immediately after" is a TIME restriction further qualified by "then" in verse 30 and 31. This discourse began with a question of TIMING concerning not merely "when these things" occur but when is "the end of the world."

Yes, and this was the 'time restriction':

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

And the 'end of the world' was the consummation of the [Mosaic] age:

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?` [YLT]

If there is a greater fulfillment of Matthew 24:29-31.....

Whatever is said of the passage from this viewpoint will be pure speculation. At least the preterists have sound historical events to support their postion.

 

[Dr. Walter]

So, if I understand your position correctly, you do not believe that the Olivet Discourse has any clear prophetic application to the literal visible coming of Jesus Christ at the end of this age to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth?

In Matthew 12 Jesus spoke of only TWO AGES - this age and the age to come. In Matthew 26 Jesus spoke of the future age to come when he would drink with them in the coming future kingdom of God.

However, what you have is THREE AGES (1)the present age at the time Jesus spoke which you say ended in A.D. 70. (2) Another age beginning at Pentecost that reaches to the end of this current world - Mt.28:20; (3) Final age when Jesus drinks the wine with them.

I have read some who vainly attempt to make the "the end of the age" in Matthew 28:20 to be A.D. 70. This is absurdly rediculous as that would also deny any commission to preach the gospel, baptize and constitute churches for instructing disciples in the all things beyond A.D. 70. However, the gospel of John and the three little Johns no doubt was written beyond A.D. 70 and are given to promote that very commission.

Yes, and this was the 'time restriction':

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

And the 'end of the world' was the consummation of the [Mosaic] age:

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?` [YLT]



Whatever is said of the passage from this viewpoint will be pure speculation. At least the preterists have sound historical events to support their postion.