Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib.....Where Are You, and Why?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
But in Rev 7 it is the Angels of God that hold back the 4 winds of passion war and strife so that the saints of God may be sealed.

But, that is during the tribulation, and the restrainer is removed before the tribulation.

1. That is not in the tribulation because the text says that they are preventing tribulation "until" the saints are sealed.

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,

3saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."

The picture is one of "calm" being preserved and maintained until the saints are sealed.

2. Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will gather His elect". The saints do not get raptured until after the tribulation

2Thess 2:1-4 - the saints do not get raptured until after the man of sin appears with all miracles signs and wonders.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The sealing work as we see in Ephesians - 1 is a work of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.

In Eph 1 - it is clear that we are being sealed now - we do not wait until after the tribulation to get sealed. That means that the angels are holding back the four winds now.

When that "holding back" ceases - the winds of strife blow (tribulation) and the lawless one - the man of sin is revealed as 2Thess 2 states.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This is something I believe.

We see the Holy Spirit leaving King Saul.

With the promise of the Comforter, we are told He will be with us always.

In the OT God's promise was also that His Holy Spirit would be with them "from NOW and FOREVER". Is 59:21

Salvation worked exactly the same OT and NT.

It is not OSAS in NT and non-OSAS in OT. Neither is there salvation apart from Christ, the New Birth, the Indwelling Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ in you).

I do not think OSAS survives texts like Matt 18 regarding forgiveness revoked and Rom 11 "you should fear for you stand only by your faith -- if He did not spare them neither will he spare you".

Notice also Paul in 1Cor 11 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified". What a horrible thing to be disqualified from the Gospel after preaching it for so many years. Thankfully that did not happen to Paul - but he lists it as a valid warning.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

This is an interesting verse (Is. 59:21).

The first part of the chapter deals with/refers to the sin of Israel, and their separation from Him.

Consider this last segment:

Isaiah 59

16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

17For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

18According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

19So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

20And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

I think this is looking forward to the New Covenant.

When the redeemer shall come to Zion.

I also see chapter 60 speaking of the millennial kingdom.

Your thoughts?

 

[BobRyan]

The problem with restricting it to the future is that The text says "from NOW and forever" instead of "from THEN and forever after that".

The New Covenant promises of Heb 8:10-11 (quoting Jer 31) were fully in place in the OT.

The Law written on the heart, forgiveness of sins, a newly "created" heart Ps 51 - all of the promises in Heb 8 are found in the OT.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Bob,

The problem with restricting it to the future is that The text says "from NOW and forever" instead of "from THEN and forever after that".

The New Covenant promises of Heb 8:10-11 (quoting Jer 31) were fully in place in the OT.

The Law written on the heart, forgiveness of sins, a newly "created" heart Ps 51 - all of the promises in Heb 8 are found in the OT.

in Christ,

Bob

Henceforth meaning the time the New Covenant is given.

But hey, I am at least glad you see the New Covenant in effect.

Some do not.

God bless.

 

[Bro K]

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John relates mostly to the Jewish people/Israel. Studying the parables of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God will be helpful. We need to be more concerned about what God has to say instead of man!!!!!!

 

[BobRyan]

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John relates mostly to the Jewish people/Israel.

In Matt 28 Jesus tells His followers to teach all nations what HE taught them. Some years after getting that instruction first-hand from Christ - Matthew writes the book of Matthew - telling us what Jesus "taught them".

One of the things Jesus taught in Matt 24 "THIS Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in ALL the world and THEN shall the end come".

Jesus never said that the Gospel "was just for Jews".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bro K]

In Matt 28 Jesus tells His followers to teach all nations what HE taught them. Some years after getting that instruction first-hand from Christ - Matthew writes the book of Matthew - telling us what Jesus "taught them".

One of the things Jesus taught in Matt 24 "THIS Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in ALL the world and THEN shall the end come".

Jesus never said that the Gospel "was just for Jews".

in Christ,

Bob

The word Gospel was used in direct relations to the title of the books. Which Kingdom was he referring too?

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said -

14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matt 24:14)

Jesus said this years before any of the Gospel writers had written anything.

 

[Bro K]

Is this 'Kingdom' the one that Christ will establish upon his return to earth?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Is this 'Kingdom' the one that Christ will establish upon his return to earth?

"The kingdom" is already here.

 

[billwald]

Jesus said -

14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matt 24:14)

I wonder what the message will be if there are still Christians around in the year 4010 or 8010. Will people still be arguing this thread?

 

[Bro K]

"The kingdom" is already here.

I still ask the question: Which Kingdom????

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I still ask the question: Which Kingdom????

Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven. Both are New Testiments use. It's here.

As in

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

Unless Christ lied.

Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'

and

But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.

and

20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

or

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.

or

He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said -

14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matt 24:14)

Jesus said this years before any of the Gospel writers had written anything.

The gospel is preached first - then the 2nd coming -- (we are still waiting for that).

In Daniel 7 the saints are persecuted - while preaching the Gospel - until that 2nd coming event - and then all persecution of the saints ends.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bro K]

"Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven. Both are New Testiments use. It's here."

What's here?? The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are not the same!

Which bible translation are you using?

 

[BobRyan]

Which bible translation are you using?

Take your pick - Matt 28:14


New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.



King James Version (KJV)

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.




New International Version (NIV)

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.



New King James Version (NKJV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[Bro K]

I assume you meant Mt 24. 14.

One can take verses from various translations and self-justify about any belief they may have.

Since Satan couldn't destroy God's inspired written word; he just goes about changing it! Goodbye :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

So then you don't like King James version, or New King James, or NASB, or NIV??

What version were you looking for -- the one that Satan did not get to?

 

[eightball]

I assume you meant Mt 24. 14.

One can take verses from various translations and self-justify about any belief they may have.

Since Satan couldn't destroy God's inspired written word; he just goes about changing it! Goodbye :wavey:

l

Bro: Your comment is very strange.......In one breath you basically say that God's omnipotence protects His Word/scriptures through the ages, and in the next breath you say that Satan taints those scriptures.

Which will it be? Is God totally omnipotent over all of creation.........which does include Lucifer/Satan......or is your god, weak and anemic?

Remember that God "allowed" Satan access to Job, but under His omnipotent parameters.......
*****
Now, there are bibles out there that are "purposefully" incorrect as they are published/developed by cults, such as; Watch Tower/Jehovah's Witnesses....the New World Translation.......

Bible scholars have roundly deplored and rejected the NWT bible as incorrect. So God's omnipotence is exacted through bible-correct theologians/scholars. Therefore the Word of God still carries the accurate message.

Isaiah scrolls found at the Black Sea site, have been compared to present day translations, such as KJ, NASB, NIV, etc.... and God's message has been miraculously protected for nearly 2,000 proven years. That's a lot of copying/scribing/retranslating time for human error or intentional error to show up, but it didn't.
*****
Apologize for getting off track from my original topic as the OP of this thread, but when the accuracy of God's Word is in question, I have to put in my two cents. I've had to deal with this same situation/topic with Mormons at the door. The whole premise of their religion, is based on the Word of God become corrupted through the thousands of years of scribing/translating, and dear old Joseph Smith Jr. was "tapped" by god(notice I use lower case "g" for J.S. Jr.'s god) to bring the Gospel back to what is originally was intended.

Again, we see the belief that God is anemic or weak and can't protect His Message or His human creation in-check. If our God is the one with the lower case "g" then why, oh why do we place are trust in him........? Our God is not a "fickle" like His humanity.........He is the same yesterday, today, and forever in the future.