Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib.....Where Are You, and Why?

[Ruiz]

D,

Again, it is the author of Hebrews who refers to this verse as the New Covenant people. Thus, we should not go into this text with presuppositions on what it means, but take the text in what it says. The text in Hebrews refers to this as the New Covenant and applies it to the New Testament Church. The text says:

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

He says Jeremiah refers to the New Covenant, not the Tribulation period and not the old covenant made with National Israel. The first part of Hebrews 8 talks about Christ's High Priestly work in redeeming people in the New Covenant. Is all National Israel in the New Covenant? No, this must refer to people before the Tribulation as it is the New Covenant. Look at Hebrews 9, he talks more about the Old Covenant then he goes back into the New Covenant and the work of Christ as High Priest. This is a constant comparison to the Old Testament Saints and the New Testament Christians.

In Chapter 7, we see the nature of the covenant when the author says, "This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant." The better Covenant? The New Covenant.

Did this all happen to National Israel? No! It happened to Christians.

This is not replacement theology (a dispensational view) but Covenant Theology, which is distinct from dispensationalism and thus neither replacement theology nor traditional dispensationalism. We believe we didn't replace Israel, we are Israel and were planned as such from the beginning of time, we were grafted into Israel.

I think Hebrews 8 clearly shows in this context as being those who receive the New Covenant and is referring distinctly to New Covenant Believers, not Tribulation old Covenant renewals.



BTW, Romans says, "Not all Israel is Israel."

 

[thomas15]

I do not believe in Replacement Theology.

That makes two of us.

 

[BobRyan]

I have had very serious doubts about pretrib dispensationalism also - and the web is loaded with thought-provoking articles that I wish had been written many years ago. I have in mind some Google articles including "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts,"

Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... he will gather his elect".

That alone puts an end to pre-trib rapture even if you did not want to notice that in 2Thess 2 - prior to our "gathering together to Him" - the antichrist appears with all the wonder working power of Satan.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[eightball]

Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... he will gather his elect".

That alone puts an end to pre-trib rapture even if you did not want to notice that in 2Thess 2 - prior to our "gathering together to Him" - the antichrist appears with all the wonder working power of Satan.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob: That was the verse that tipped it for me..........How can it be interpretted in an other way, as this verse is so "straight forward"............The elect gathered after......... I assume that the "elect" are both Jews and gentiles....as I think the "church" is the elect as well as the believing Jews, and we the gentiles; the wild olive are grafted into the domesticated olive tree; the Jews? One olive tree..........One elect?

 

[BobRyan]

Correct - and Rev 19 (second coming) comes right before Rev 20 where we see the "FIRST resurrection".

Then in 1Thess 4 we see the resurrection of the saints at the coming of Christ just as Rev 19 and 20 describe it.

No pre-trib rapture. But all the saints -- both the living and the dead taken by Christ at the 1Thess 4, Rev 20, 1Cor 15, Matt 24 event - of Christ's coming.

Thus in John 14 there is only ONE promise "If I go - I will come AGAIN and receive you to Myself" not "I will come again and again getting a few more of you each time".



in Christ,

Bob

 

[thomas15]

The elect, my friends, are those whom the Father elected from the beginning and will be of the elect forever. The Father will gather those elect from where ever they may be at the time the Father decides to gather them. Some of the elect will be on earth, some in heaven, some will be resurected, some waiting for resurection.

This is a weak arguement against the pre-trib position. The fact of the matter is, dispensationalism on the whole teaches that Matt 24 is the second coming where Christ appears with His bride to the elect of the tribulation period. Those of the covanent A-Mil and covanent post-mil position who claim that dispensationalist teach Matt 24 to be the rapture are being dishonest.

 

[BobRyan]

It is equally difficult to argue that when the disciples ask for details about the promise of His coming - Christ forgets to mention the rapture of the church - which Peter says is the entire focus of NT saints (1 Peter 1:13).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[thomas15]

It is equally difficult to argue that when the disciples ask for details about the promise of His coming - Christ forgets to mention the rapture of the church - which Peter says is the entire focus of NT saints (1 Peter 1:13).

in Christ,

Bob

Jesus answered the question(s) that the disciples asked. They didn't ask about the church and Jesus didn't force an answer on them about it (the church).

 

[BobRyan]

There is a degree of bending required to imagine in Matt 24 that Christ does not speak to the church about the focus of the church on the 2nd coming.


1Peter 1
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

As for the idea that Christ does not actually talk to the church in Matt 24 "But pray that YOUR flight may not be in the winder or on the Sabbath" Matt 24:20. The disciples were standing right in front of Christ listening as He told them that He would "gather His elect" Matt 24:31.

The idea that the church does not think of itself as being the elect - is hard to imagine.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[thomas15]

........The idea that the church does not think of itself as being the elect - is hard to imagine.

in Christ,

Bob

Again, the elect are the elect through out history. When the Bible speaks of an event that effects the elect on earth, such as the problems the elect are facing in Matt 24, it doesn't mean that the whole of the elect through out history will be involved.

 

[thomas15]

One of the things I don't understand about covenant theologians is that they don't seem to take at face value the text of the OT covenants.

In 3/4 of the scriptures, Israel is unquestionably those who are from Abraham/Isaac/Jacob. Moses gave the Law to those people. The NT does away with the law, why would the church (Jew/Gentile) enter into a covanent in which the law is written on the heart/minds?

Of course there is really no good answer to this problem. The Holy Spirit which indwells the believer since Acts 2 is not the law, it is the third person of the triune God.

Gen. 15 promises land to the the descendants of Abraham. No time in history has those descendants occupied all of the land mentioned in that passage. Also, no where in that passage is there an offer of salvation.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Is Hebrews 8:10 clearly wrong, as you say?
Has God put his laws into the Jews' minds and upon their hearts, and have they turned to Him, and is He their God?
Or is this speaking of yet a future time?

 

[BobRyan]

One of the things I don't understand about covenant theologians is that they don't seem to take at face value the text of the OT covenants.

In 3/4 of the scriptures, Israel is unquestionably those who are from Abraham/Isaac/Jacob. Moses gave the Law to those people. The NT does away with the law, why would the church (Jew/Gentile) enter into a covanent in which the law is written on the heart/minds?

Of course there is really no good answer to this problem.

The problem with your view is that you are missing the fact that there is only 1 Gospel and the saints of Heb 11 were saved by it the same way we are today. Heb 4 - says "the gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also".

The Jer 31 context for the "LAw of God" written on the heart under the New Covenant - is very bit the Ten Commandments and more.

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[thomas15]

The problem with your view is that you are missing the fact that there is only 1 Gospel and the saints of Heb 11 were saved by it the same way we are today. Heb 4 - says "the gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also".

The Jer 31 context for the "LAw of God" written on the heart under the New Covenant - is very bit the Ten Commandments and more.

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

in Christ,

Bob

With all due respect....

Which one of the 10 commandments has the offer of individual eternal salvation? There is a promise to the Jews that if they keep those 10 commandments (EX. 20:12) they will enjoy a long stay in the land that Jehovah has promised them. But how can we be saved by grace through faith if it is conditioned by keeping the works of the law?

The problem with your answer is that it doesn't understand the question.

Tom

 

[eightball]

With all due respect....

Which one of the 10 commandments has the offer of individual eternal salvation? There is a promise to the Jews that if they keep those 10 commandments (EX. 20:12) they will enjoy a long stay in the land that Jehovah has promised them. But how can we be saved by grace through faith if it is conditioned by keeping the works of the law?

The problem with your answer is that it doesn't understand the question.

Tom

Not being one to quote verbatim verses too often, but try to say/express them in my own wording; the law according to Paul was not bad..........but it did show us that we were hopeless sinners............Now Christ met the law's requirements to every jot and tittle..........Therefore, we, through Christ's perfect life received have been graciously given a "pass" from the edict of all who fail the law.

Grace is unmerited favor............Abraham received life-eternal before the law was even given to Moses...............................But it was by "grace" as Abraham "believed" and it was reckoned unto him.

The law does not spawn life to anyone...........It wasn't intended to bring life..........It was intended by God to show us how far off and hopeless we are.

In fact since sin was in our world since the fall of Adam and Eve, it was made most apparent and effectual through the law, as the law magnified it by magnifying our fallen state.
********
Salvation has not changed since Adam's time.........It is reckoned unto us by God.........We do not fullfill the requirements of the law............Christ did/does. Even before the incarnation of Christ.........Salvation was effectual towards OT folks, as Abraham "looked ahead" to the day of Christ.

Also remember that in God's economy, yesterday, today, and tomorrow are only parameters for time-bound creatures as ourselves.........When Abraham looks ahead, the work of Christ is effectually done in God timeless economy.

Hope that wasn't getting too deep.........

 

[ReformedBaptist]

With all due respect....

Which one of the 10 commandments has the offer of individual eternal salvation? There is a promise to the Jews that if they keep those 10 commandments (EX. 20:12) they will enjoy a long stay in the land that Jehovah has promised them. But how can we be saved by grace through faith if it is conditioned by keeping the works of the law?

The problem with your answer is that it doesn't understand the question.

Tom

Keeping the commandments of God is loving God, isn't it? Didn't Jesus tell us that if we love Him, that we would keep His commandments? Didn't the Apostle John say that the love of God is keeping the commandments?

Does the moral law of God disappear with the coming of the Messiah? Does the righteousness of God end with the New Covenant? God forbid!

Christ Jesus is indeed the end of the law for everyone who believes. That is, we do not seek our righteousness by the law, but it in Christ Jesus who is become to us our righteousness, wisdom, et.

But then does this mean we are without law? Are we liscentious? God forbid!

But God has written His Holy Law upon our hearts, by the Spirit He has given us. A true Christian never hates the Law of God, but loves it.

 

[eightball]

Keeping the commandments of God is loving God, isn't it? Didn't Jesus tell us that if we love Him, that we would keep His commandments? Didn't the Apostle John say that the love of God is keeping the commandments?

Does the moral law of God disappear with the coming of the Messiah? Does the righteousness of God end with the New Covenant? God forbid!

Christ Jesus is indeed the end of the law for everyone who believes. That is, we do not seek our righteousness by the law, but it in Christ Jesus who is become to us our righteousness, wisdom, et.

But then does this mean we are without law? Are we liscentious? God forbid!

But God has written His Holy Law upon our hearts, by the Spirit He has given us. A true Christian never hates the Law of God, but loves it.

Yes indeed! Christ fullfilled the law............and so true the law is written upon our hearts..........

Even though we gentiles are not schooled in the law as the Jews, the Holy Spirit has imprinted the law within us.

 

[thomas15]

Let's start here...

Keeping the commandments of God is loving God, isn't it? Didn't Jesus tell us that if we love Him, that we would keep His commandments? Didn't the Apostle John say that the love of God is keeping the commandments?

Question- Do You Keep the commandments? Every one of them? If you do, then you have no need of a savior since you are sinless. This goes to the question of what is the purpose of the law? Has anyone been saved by keeping the law? Did Moses keep the law of Moses? If you say yes, then how come Moses wasn't allowed into the land?

The covenants are not just about eternal salvation. Yes, they point the way to Christ but the provisions of the OT covenants in many cases, for example Gen ch 15 make promises to the recipients that are not just about salvation or the Gospel of Christ. It is true that Jehovah God has a plan to populate heaven with his human creation. This is true. But God also seems to want to have a people for his name during this time on earth. Once we accept Christ and have the gift of salvation, we are to live Godly moral lives so that others will see our good works and also believe. Part of that is the blessings we receive while here on earth. The covenants promised to the Jews are more to the reception of the blessings and less about salvation. Hard concept to grasp when all you hear is that the OT is a collection of writings depicting the history of redemption. Redemption is good and it is the prerequsite to blessing but the blessings are also part of the deal.

Again, which one of the 10 commandments in Ex ch 20 promise eternal salvation? How about Gen 15?

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are right that we are not under the law of God but under grace. You are also right that the Law covenant with Israel involved many things yet to be fulfilled when God saves all Israel as a nation (Rom. 11:25-32). On the basis of election God has promised salvation to Israel as a nation and he will fulfill that promise.

However, the positive side of the law is written upon our hearts - love - for God and man and that is administered by the Holy Spirit in a way that always EXCELLS the written law.

Let's start here...



Question- Do You Keep the commandments? Every one of them? If you do, then you have no need of a savior since you are sinless. This goes to the question of what is the purpose of the law? Has anyone been saved by keeping the law? Did Moses keep the law of Moses? If you say yes, then how come Moses wasn't allowed into the land?

The covenants are not just about eternal salvation. Yes, they point the way to Christ but the provisions of the OT covenants in many cases, for example Gen ch 15 make promises to the recipients that are not just about salvation or the Gospel of Christ. It is true that Jehovah God has a plan to populate heaven with his human creation. This is true. But God also seems to want to have a people for his name during this time on earth. Once we accept Christ and have the gift of salvation, we are to live Godly moral lives so that others will see our good works and also believe. Part of that is the blessings we receive while here on earth. The covenants promised to the Jews are more to the reception of the blessings and less about salvation. Hard concept to grasp when all you hear is that the OT is a collection of writings depicting the history of redemption. Redemption is good and it is the prerequsite to blessing but the blessings are also part of the deal.

Again, which one of the 10 commandments in Ex ch 20 promise eternal salvation? How about Gen 15?

 

[thomas15]

......... On the basis of election God has promised salvation to Israel as a nation and he will fulfill that promise.
.......

This is of course one (of the many) problems with the covenant position. In Gen 15 vs. 18, the promise of the land to the descendants of Abraham gives the exact boundries of that promised land. At no time in history have those qualifications been met. Again, there is salvation for individuals and there are blessings that God gives to those whom he wants for His purposes. Salvation is a one time gift, blessings--different.

When I accepted Christ as my savior, my redemption was paid for, my eternal salvation assured. What does this have to do with who or whom occupies a tract of land in the middle east? It is really that simple. But as simple as this is, I don't expect anyone to re-evaluate their cherished theological position based on anything I may say.

BTW, it is odd how no one is giving a direct answer to the questions I have asked in the last few posts. That's OK, I know that there isn't really a good answer, except for "covenant theologians have always believed", or "the reformers taught ...".

Let me also add this, if Jehovah God were to use the same standard of faith and behavior that got the Jews disinherited (as claimed by the covenant crowd), then the 21st century church is in a lot of trouble, myself included. All the covenant crowd claims are the blessings, passing off the curses for disobedience to those outside of the body of the elect.

 

[BobRyan]

The problem with your view is that you are missing the fact that there is only 1 Gospel and the saints of Heb 11 were saved by it the same way we are today. Heb 4 - says "the gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also".

The Jer 31 context for the "LAw of God" written on the heart under the New Covenant - is very bit the Ten Commandments and more.

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

With all due respect....

Which one of the 10 commandments has the offer of individual eternal salvation?

The Law of God is not a savior - a means of salvation.

But God still claims that rebellion against His word - His Law "is sin" 1John 3:4 and in Romans 7 -- yes even post-cross.

So the Gospel solution not only pays our debt of sin - it also writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).

This was true both in the OT and in the NT. Only "one" Gospel as it turns out.

But how can we be saved by grace through faith if it is conditioned by keeping the works of the law?

Romans 6 is an entire chapter dedicated to that point.

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.