Adam and Eve's Knowledge

[BobRyan]

HP: I would again disagree. Men are moral beings, animals are not. Adam and Eve were created as ‘moral’ beings, proof of which is the eternal punishment they would receive for disobedience. What separates us from the animal kingdom is that we have the ability to understand the ‘intrinsic value’ of a command apart from punishments or rewards, whereas animals do not.

As I see it, either Adam and Eve were created as moral beings or they were simply animals. I believe they were moral beings and as such just recipients of moral praise and blame, something unjust to apply to anyone not within the moral realm.

Why did they fall?

All true.

Adam and Eve were capable of abstract thought - they knew the concept of worship of God they knew right and wrong. They knew it was wrong to dishonor and disobey God. They knew that deat would be the result of sin.

Animals knew nothing of the sort. There was no "animal" standing at the tree and telling Eve "O please do not eat - you will die, you will die". The animals had no understanding at all about the tree of knowledge being anything but a tree. In fact - the word tree conveys more meaning to us than an animal can have regarding that object.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

1. Adam and Eve were "perfect" - they are the workmanship of God - God did not create them "flawed" in any way. God created them with Free Will - they had choice beyond that of a robot.


in Christ,

Bob

Jesus was perfect. Adam was perfect. This would make Adam equal to God according to your pov.

This would mean that Jesus could have sinned just like Adam. Is this what you believe? God could sin?

 

[BobRyan]

Adam was perfect.

Adam was created sinless.

Adam had no earthly Father or earthly Mother - just a Creator.

The gospel writer Luke even calls Adam "the son of God".

But your "Adam was like God" goes a bit too far. Paul calls Christ the second Adam in Romans 5. Christ was the "God man" -- Adam was not.

Christ had to "choose not to use His power as God" in Matt 4 -- Adam never had such a problem.

Christ on the other hand was born to a woman after 4000 years of sin had degraded the physical structure of the human race. Adam was far more "advantaged" than Christ in that case.

Christ was made like unto us in all points - except without sin.

Adam had no such disadvantage.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Adam was perfect.

Adam was created sinless.

Adam had no earthly Father or earthly Mother - just a Creator.

The gospel writer Luke even calls Adam "the son of God".

But your "Adam was like God" goes a bit too far. Paul calls Christ the second Adam in Romans 5. Christ was the "God man" -- Adam was not.

Christ had to "choose not to use His power as God" in Matt 4 -- Adam never had such a problem.

Christ on the other hand was born to a woman after 4000 years of sin had degraded the physical structure of the human race. Adam was far more "advantaged" than Christ in that case.

Christ was made like unto us in all points - except without sin.

Adam had no such disadvantage.

in Christ,

Bob

This would mean that Jesus could have sinned just like Adam. Is this what you believe? God could sin?

 

[BobRyan]

I believe "scripture".

Heb 4.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Matt 4
1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
2And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry.
3And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

 

[steaver]

I believe "scripture".

Heb 4.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Matt 4
1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
2And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry.
3And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

I did not ask you if Jesus could be tempted by the devil to sin.

I asked you if He, God, could sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: I did not ask you if Jesus could be tempted by the devil to sin.

I asked you if He, God, could sin.

HP: This is a fallacious loaded question that proves nothing other than the ignorance of the one asking and the one answering in the leading fashion you try to elicit their response. Do you know the mind of God Steaver? Are you God’s counselor? What ever happened to His ways are higher than our ways???

One thing reason does tell us is that if one can be tempted, one has to be capable of contrary choice. If Jesus was tempted in ALL points as we are, yet without sin, He could have done differently if He so chose, but He did not. That is God given intuuitve reason, and if God desires for us to believe otherwise He has provided no basis for any other conclusion in consideration of His humanity.

Scripture presents thoughts that are opposing from our finite perspective. It presents it as an impossibility to tempt God, but it also says Christ was tempted. It says that Christ was a man yet it also states He was God. Now you can try and elevate His Divinity to the point of destroying His humanity all you so desire, but I for one will simply say both are true and I am but a finite man and do not understand how both can be true. Rather than to say Scripture contradicts itself I will lay the blame on the apparent contradictions on my finite nature and inability in this world to harmonize the two thoughts. One thing that I will not do is to take sides as you have conveniently done and destroy the one truth, just as true as the fact that He is God and that God cannot be tempted, i.e., that He was man and as a man was tempted, and if He was tempted yes He could have made a contrary choice.

 

[steaver]

HP: This is a fallacious loaded question that proves nothing other than the ignorance of the one asking and the one answering in the leading fashion you try to elicit their response. Do you know the mind of God Steaver? Are you God’s counselor? What ever happened to His ways are higher than our ways???

One thing reason does tell us is that if one can be tempted, one has to be capable of contrary choice. If Jesus was tempted in ALL points as we are, yet without sin, He could have done differently if He so chose, but He did not. That is God given intuuitve reason, and if God desires for us to believe otherwise He has provided no basis for any other conclusion in consideration of His humanity.

Scripture presents thoughts that are opposing from our finite perspective. It presents it as an impossibility to tempt God, but it also says Christ was tempted. It says that Christ was a man yet it also states He was God. Now you can try and elevate His Divinity to the point of destroying His humanity all you so desire, but I for one will simply say both are true and I am but a finite man and do not understand how both can be true. Rather than to say Scripture contradicts itself I will lay the blame on the apparent contradictions on my finite nature and inability in this world to harmonize the two thoughts. One thing that I will not do is to take sides as you have conveniently done and destroy the one truth, just as true as the fact that He is God and that God cannot be tempted, i.e., that He was man and as a man was tempted, and if He was tempted yes He could have made a contrary choice.

Interesting.

Here is the short answer..

No, Jesus could not have sinned and He did have a free-will.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: No, Jesus could not have sinned and He did have a free-will.

HP: Your free will is no free will at all.

 

[steaver]

HP: Your free will is no free will at all.

You have a free will HP. Tell me, can you stop being you?

 

[Cutter]

Adam was sinless and therefore, innocent up until the time he chose to follow his wife in her direct disobedience to God. The scripture teaches us that Adam was not deceived. I Tim. 2:14 He made a conscience choice to do this in order to save his wife through childbearing. The promised seed could not be consummated between a sinful woman and a sinless man, therefore Adam, like Christ, had to stoop to her level to be the deliverer of his wife, and taste death on behalf of his bride.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: You have a free will HP. Tell me, can you stop being you?

HP: Do you seriously believe your question has merit to support your ideas? The question is silly at best, and absurd as to having any moral or salvic relevance.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Adam was sinless and therefore, innocent up until the time he chose to follow his wife in her direct disobedience to God. The scripture teaches us that Adam was not deceived. I Tim. 2:14 He made a conscience choice to do this in order to save his wife through childbearing. The promised seed could not be consummated between a sinful woman and a sinless man, therefore Adam, like Christ, had to stoop to her level to be the deliverer of his wife, and taste death on behalf of his bride.

I've got a question about three of your statements. I highlighted them in different colors. Could you cite the scripture references for these three statements?

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You shall not die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good and evil'. So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her and he ate." Genesis 3:4-6

If Adam were this romance novel martyr who couldn't bear the thought of his dear wife suffering God's wrath all alone and sacrificing himself for her sake, then why did he throw her under the bus by blaming her and why did he tempt God's wrath, himself, by rebelliously blaming God?

Your romantically sacrificial and noble martyr-Adam does not match the Biblical-Adam who hid from God, blamed his wife, and most of all blamed God for his own wrong behavior.

 

[steaver]

HP: Do you seriously believe your question has merit to support your ideas? The question is silly at best, and absurd as to having any moral or salvic relevance.

Free will has limits brother.

God cannot stop being God and you cannot stop being you, even with your free will to choose things that can be chosen.

Did you choose to be born HP? No. Did you choose to be born-again HP? Yes. The former no free will, the latter given with free will.

Jesus taught that salvation was a birth. Births cannot be undone. The second birth was presented to you as a free will choice. Once you accepted, it was done by the power of God.

Spirit gives birth to spirit as flesh gave birth to flesh. Births are final. New creations. You have free will as a born again believer, but a choice to become unborn is not there. Just as it is not there for the flesh, it is not there for the spirit. You made your free will choice and it is finished. You must live with your choice and no one would ever want to change that anyways.

Since one cannot be unborn in spirit your pov of disobedience sending one to hell is to send a child of God to hell. This cannot be.

You need to understand the implications of regeneration before you can understand perserverance.

I challenged you many times, try to stop believing and see how that goes for you.

I remember when you use to believe in faith alone and only believed one could stop believing. You did not believe that the law could condemn a believer in Christ. Now you have abandoned that for BobRyan's form of keep the law or else salvation. You are transgressing further down a path you don't want to go.

I have hope for you HP. Pray on this verse...

2Cr 11:3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.


Only believe HP.

Only believe.

May God bless you.

 

[Cutter]

I've got a question about three of your statements. I highlighted them in different colors. Could you cite the scripture references for these three statements?

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You shall not die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good and evil'. So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her and he ate." Genesis 3:4-6

If Adam were this romance novel martyr who couldn't bear the thought of his dear wife suffering God's wrath all alone and sacrificing himself for her sake, then why did he throw her under the bus by blaming her and why did he tempt God's wrath, himself, by rebelliously blaming God?

Your romantically sacrificial and noble martyr-Adam does not match the Biblical-Adam who hid from God, blamed his wife, and most of all blamed God for his own wrong behavior.

His decision to save his wife was before his transgression, while he was yet innocent and knew no sin. He was heart broken over what his wife had done, therefore he chose to sin. When he experienced the full consequences of that sin and the curse that had been laid upon him he acted exactly like any other sinner would. He hid, he pointed the finger at Eve and God, trying to divert the burden and attention away from himself. You have got to realize that the mind and thought processes of Adam before his transgression was much different than that after his fall. Which is why I Tim. 2: 14 says, "Adam was not deceived..."

 

[BobRyan]

I've got a question about three of your statements. I highlighted them in different colors. Could you cite the scripture references for these three statements?

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You shall not die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good and evil'. So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her and he ate." Genesis 3:4-6

If Adam were this romance novel martyr who couldn't bear the thought of his dear wife suffering God's wrath all alone and sacrificing himself for her sake, then why did he throw her under the bus by blaming her and why did he tempt God's wrath, himself, by rebelliously blaming God?

While I do not agree that Adam was trying to "save his wife through child bearing" - I do agree that he acted out of love and compassion for his wife -- knowing that she had "done the deed" and would be under the condemnation of God.

As for why Adam "Acted like a depraved sinner" after he "sinned" - well, I think we all know how that one ends. :thumbs:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Adam was sinless and therefore, innocent up until the time he chose to follow his wife in her direct disobedience to God. The scripture teaches us that Adam was not deceived. I Tim. 2:14 He made a conscience choice to do this in order to save his wife ...

While I agree with this much of your statement - my understanding is that Adam's entire plan blew up in his face. Thus he immediately finds himself as a depraved sinner "blaming his wife" before God, and he finds that his action condemns the entire human race.

Eve's action only condemned Eve. Adam's action combined with her's condemned all of humanity (Romans 5).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
I believe "scripture".

Heb 4.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Matt 4
1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
2And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry.
3And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
4But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

I did not ask you if Jesus could be tempted by the devil to sin.

I asked you if He, God, could sin.

God's Word says "God cannot be tempted" - James 1:13 neither does God get hungry or tired or thirsty. Hence the texts I selected that point out the flaw in your position.

Your avoidance of the text - is leaving you with a bit of a problem.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cutter]

While I agree with this much of your statement - my understanding is that Adam's entire plan blew up in his face

Yes it did, or did it? What if Adam had not chosen to sin and Eve would have remained in her fallen state while her husband remained sinless and innocent? Who would have been born to redeem her and to remove the curse with their relationship being broken by her sin? Adam could not overcome the curse and did not have the power to redeem his wife, himself, nor the human race. It took their seed, Jesus Christ to bruise the head of Satan. I do believe Adam willfully disobeyed God because of his love for Eve, let me say again, Adam was not deceived. When his eyes were opened and he knew the difference between good and evil, he was able to choose the vices of the sinful flesh to try and manipulate the situation...i.e. hiding, accusing, and rebelling.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes it did, or did it? What if Adam had not chosen to sin and Eve would have remained in her fallen state while her husband remained sinless and innocent? Who would have been born to redeem her

God caused Christ to be born of a woman without an earthly father.

I do believe Adam willfully disobeyed God because of his love for Eve, let me say again, Adam was not deceived. When his eyes were opened and he knew the difference between good and evil, he was able to choose the vices of the sinful flesh ... hiding, accusing, and rebelling.

Agreed.

in Christ,

Bob