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MacArthur's Ignorant Misrepresentation of Catholic Teaching

lori4dogs

New Member
Again, can you point me to the document that says a Catholic must pray the rosary?
You posted a link that encourages me to, that shows me how, that tells why I might want to. But can you show me the document that says I MUST pray the rosary?

The Church thinks it is necessary to meditate. There are many ways to meditate. Personally, I meditate on the Psalms. You ever meditate on the Psalms, DHK. There is contemplative prayer. The rosary is ONE way to do this.

As a Baptist, I had no clue what contemplative prayer or meditation meant. I have incorporated into my life 'The Daily Office' and it has enriched my walk with the Lord Jesus in ways I never imagined.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Again, can you point me to the document that says a Catholic must pray the rosary?
You posted a link that encourages me to, that shows me how, that tells why I might want to. But can you show me the document that says I MUST pray the rosary?

The Church thinks it is necessary to meditate. There are many ways to meditate. Personally, I meditate on the Psalms. You ever meditate on the Psalms, DHK. There is contemplative prayer. The rosary is ONE way to do this.

As a Baptist, I had no clue what contemplative prayer or meditation meant. I have incorporated into my life 'The Daily Office' and it has enriched my walk with the Lord Jesus in ways I never imagined.
From the Catechism
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Arial]971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "The Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God', to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs...This special devotion...differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Arial]1674 Besides sacramental liturgy and sacramentals, catechesis must take into account the forms of piety and popular devotions among the faithful. The religious sense of the Christian people has always found expression in various forms of piety surrounding the Church's sacramental life, such as the veneration of relics, visits to sanctuaries, pilgrimages, processions, the stations of the cross, religious dances, the rosary, medals, etc.[/FONT]


http://www.wf-f.org/Rosary.html#anchor313776
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Yes, all very nice. Can you point me to the document that says as a Catholic I MUST say the rosary
The excerpt from the CC says some nice things about the rosary and Marian devotion, but . . . is that your proof?

BTW, the forms of piety and popular devotion come under many, many forms. I enjoy visits to the local Church for prayer and meditation. To make the conclusion that you do from this document, DHK, I would have to incorporate every form of piety that is listed at the end of excerpt including the etc. (whatever that is) to be obedient. It is obvious these forms of devotion are given as examples, not demands on the faithful. That why the use of the words 'such as' preceding the list of examples of pious and popular devotion.

I think your out of gas on this one, DHK.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I think your out of gas on this one, DHK.
Not at all.
1. I know what Pope John Paul taught.
2. I know what my former priest taught.
3. I know how the rosary fits in with indulgences, and Purgatory as well
4. I know also from experience how the rosary fits in with "Confession" and "Penance."
5. I know that you can't be a good Catholic without praying the rosary.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Arial]
Pope John Paul II asks us to pray the Rosary
[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Arial](October 16, 2002), Pope John Paul II issued Rosarium Virginis Mariae - Apostolic Letter on Rosary of the Virgin Mary. He declared October 2002 * October 2003 The Year of the Rosary, and added Mysteries of Light that focus on events of Christ's ministry.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Arial]On September 30, 2001, after the morning Mass opening the Synod of Bishops, Pope John Paul II asked people to pray the Rosary. Here is his message:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Arial]"October is the month in which Mary Most Holy, Queen of the Holy Rosary, is venerated. Within the current international context, I invite all -- individuals, families, communities -- to pray this Marian prayer, possibly every day, for peace, so that the world can be preserved from the wicked scourge of terrorism.
"The terrible tragedy of September 11th will be remembered as a dark day in the history of humanity. In the face of this, the Church tries to be faithful to her prophetic charism and remind all men about their duty to build a future of peace for the human family. Certainly, peace is not separated from justice, but it must be nourished by mercy and love.
"We cannot forget that Jews, Christians and Muslims adore God as the only God. The three religions, therefore, have the vocation of unity and peace. May God allow the Church's faithful to be agents of peace, in the front line of the search for justice and the prohibition of violence.
"May the Virgin Mary, Queen of Peace, intercede for all humanity, so that hate and death never have the last word!"
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Arial]http://www.wf-f.org/OurLadyRosary.html[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Arial]
[/FONT]
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Nothing in that document other that asking for people to pray the rosary. NO MANDATE!

AGAIN, DHK, PLEASE SUPPLY THE DOCUMENT THAT SAYS A CATHOLIC MUST (IS REQUIRED) TO SAY THE ROSARY.

You see, this is typical of you and other anti-Catholic Protestants. You make a statement that you can't support and then will NOT admit you are wrong. You will defend MacArthur to death even when he is wrong because of your hatred of the Catholic Church.
 
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lori4dogs

New Member
Not at all.
1. I know what Pope John Paul taught.
2. I know what my former priest taught.
3. I know how the rosary fits in with indulgences, and Purgatory as well
4. I know also from experience how the rosary fits in with "Confession" and "Penance."
5. I know that you can't be a good Catholic without praying the rosary.

I guess the Eastern Rite Christians of the Holy Catholic Church can't be good Catholics then. Many of those rites don't have the rosary as a custom.

Makes you look ridiculous doesn't it?
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Not at all.
1. I know what Pope John Paul taught.
2. I know what my former priest taught.
3. I know how the rosary fits in with indulgences, and Purgatory as well
4. I know also from experience how the rosary fits in with "Confession" and "Penance."
5. I know that you can't be a good Catholic without praying the rosary.

BTW, I have only been asked to say the rosary as a form of penance once since I became Catholic. I asked the priest to give me a different penance and he said, 'of course, there is no obligation for anyone to have to say the rosary'.

Just what Catholics MUST say the rosary to be good Catholics? All of them?? Latin rite and Eastern Rites? Documents please!
 
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lori4dogs

New Member
Remember, we went through a discussion like this before over the fact that the Eastern Rites of the Holy Catholic Church have married priests. You insisted that ALL priests in the Catholic Church MUST be celibate. You see, DHK, with all your expertise about Catholicism you don't realize that the Latin Rite is only one part of the Catholic Church. You wouldn't admit you were wrong then and you won't admit your wrong now. You will NEVER concede ANYTHING to a Catholic.
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Actually - my statement was that there is a big difference between the two - and that it must have been simply a slip on John MacArthur's part to speak of the virgin Birth of Mary - (As if Mary was born of a Virgin). Certainly I have never heard John argue for such an idea and I don't know of anyone in his church that claims that Catholics think that Mary was born of a virgin. I am thinking it was just a one-time slip - a mis-statement on John's part.

in Christ,

Bob

Actually, it isn't a mistatement on his part, it's a lie on your part. He didn't say that.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
My preferred choice of contemplative prayer is the Divine Office. However, I do sometimes meditate on the gospel by way of these events in the life of Jesus using the rosary:

http://www.rosary-center.org/luminous.htm
I was going to post something else for you, but this is off topic.
Let's get back to the topic, and your unfounded accusations against MacArthur. Actually, I believe it is the other way around. Go to any Catholic Apologetic site and you will find unfounded accusations against the Baptists.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
How are they un-founded, DHK? I have provided you with his quotes and links to his web site and links to the actual pages on his web site where he, indeed says those things.

JDF is accusing another brother of lying and saying that MacArthur never said something that documents clearly show he did. Who is making false accusations. If JDF has information that we are not privy to, I wish he would share it with us.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/catholicscandal.htm

"We could talk a lot about those things; concepts of purgatory, concepts of the sinlessness of Mary, the virgin birth of Mary, a lot of things about Catholic theology..."
 
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lori4dogs

New Member
I was going to post something else for you, but this is off topic.
Let's get back to the topic, and your unfounded accusations against MacArthur. Actually, I believe it is the other way around. Go to any Catholic Apologetic site and you will find unfounded accusations against the Baptists.

Please point the unfounded accusations against Baptist out for me. Baptist theologians do a pretty good job of dismantling your 'Baptist succession' theory themselves.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
How are they un-founded, DHK? I have provided you with his quotes and links to his web site and links to the actual pages on his web site where he, indeed says those things.

JDF is accusing another brother of lying and saying that MacArthur never said something that documents clearly show he did. Who is making false accusations. If JDF has information that we are not privy to, I wish he would share it with us.
I am sure he will explain himself in time.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/catholicscandal.htm

"We could talk a lot about those things; concepts of purgatory, concepts of the sinlessness of Mary, the virgin birth of Mary, a lot of things about Catholic theology..."
Yes, if you would like to start another thread be my guest.
However, if you believe that MacArthur is misrepresenting any of these doctrines then this is the thread to talk about it. Please provide the documentation.
 

billwald

New Member
First, from the essay, we have this consistent Protestant grammatical error:

>And then came the idea that this was in imitation of the virgin Mary

If "virgin" is part of her title and name, it should be written "Virgin Mary."

If "Mary" identifies the noun, "virgin," it should be written "virgin, Mary."

Second, some people need to learn to read:

>Quote:
>"We could talk a lot about those things; concepts of purgatory, concepts of the sinlessness of Mary, the virgin birth of Mary, a lot of things about Catholic theology..."

Does not infer agreement with the statement.

Third, from the Catholic Catechism:


The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace".133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135
492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

"Let it be done to me according to your word. . ."

494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:140

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143
Mary's divine motherhood

495 Called in the Gospels "the mother of Jesus", Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as "the mother of my Lord".144 In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos).145
 

lori4dogs

New Member
"If he (MacArthur) means the Immaculate Conception, fine, that is Catholic doctrine. If he means the Virgin Birth of Christ, fine, that is Catholic doctrine. But he doesn't say that. He says the "virgin birth of Mary." That is not Catholic doctrine, that is just ignorance." And misrepresentation.
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
MacArthur is certainly fallable and you have rightly pointed out some of his mistakes here. But to be fair - anyone who is loyal to MacArthur in this context could simply point out that MacArthur was not "speaking ex cathedra" in these statements. Not speaking in the form of a thesis paper as a Theologian.

My question is - why would you as a Catholic hold MacArthur to a higher standard than you would argue the Pope should be held to?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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