Justice: God's perspective vs. man's perspective

[Skandelon]

This is really ludicrous. Basic to any orthodox theology is the understanding that we are condemned for sin.

It's also basic to any orthodox theology, besides the Augustinian/Calvin Western version, that the sacrifice of atonement provides reconciliation for the whole world rather than a select few, but that doesn't stop you.

You point out Hebrews 3:19: So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

The problem? The author of Hebrews is not referring to a universal situation. He is referring to an historical situation with Israel. In other words, he is not delivering a theological diagnosis, per se. Rather, he is delivering a historical. To make a universal point about unbelief is not his point.

Seriously? Please go back and read the entire chapter. Clearly he is warning them so as to prevent them from repeating the same mistakes of their ancestors so they could "enter their rest." For Israel of old that was the Promised Land, which you and I both know is representative of the eternal rest to come.

It says, "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

Does that sound like its only historical in nature to you? Or what about when he rights in the very next verse, "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

How can you possibly say that is not "theological" or applicable to our salvation? Now that is Ludicrous.

You point out John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The problem? You ignore that this is speaking of two separate standings. It is very telling that the passage does not say "will be condemned." Instead, it says the non-believer is already condemned, meaning there is an a priori condemnation that is based on sin.

What?!? It tells us exactly why they are "condemned already." It says, "because he has not believed..." How much more clear could that be? You clearly don't wish to see the truth of this passage.

Furthermore, you are ignoring John 5:25-29 which clearly states: 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. Notice, unbelief here is not the basis of judgment, but sinful deeds are.

So, do you believe that those who have done good did good according to the law or according to faith in Christ? And what do you suppose he means when he says, "done evil?" Is he talking about breaking the law or refusing to believe in Christ? Isn't the ONLY way to be GOOD through faith in Christ? So, wouldn't it reason the only way to be "evil" according to that standard of righteousness is through unbelief? Both groups sin, right? Both groups broke the law, right? So what exactly is the difference between the good ones and the evil ones Archangel? FAITH IN CHRIST.

Got to run, i'll get to the rest later...

 

[Dr. Walter]

My friend,

In all theological positions you are under condemnation until the atonement is applied. Even your theological preference does not remove condemnation until after application. Therefore, the lost sinner is under condemnation.

It's also basic to any orthodox theology, besides the Augustinian/Calvin Western version, that the sacrifice of atonement provides reconciliation for the whole world rather than a select few, but that doesn't stop you.



Seriously? Please go back and read the entire chapter. Clearly he is warning them so as to prevent them from repeating the same mistakes of their ancestors so they could "enter their rest." For Israel of old that was the Promised Land, which you and I both know is representative of the eternal rest to come.

It says, "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

Does that sound like its only historical in nature to you? Or what about when he rights in the very next verse, "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

How can you possibly say that is not "theological" or applicable to our salvation? Now that is Ludicrous.

What?!? It tells us exactly why they are "condemned already." It says, "because he has not believed..." How much more clear could that be? You clearly don't wish to see the truth of this passage.


So, do you believe that those who have done good did good according to the law or according to faith in Christ? And what do you suppose he means when he says, "done evil?" Is he talking about breaking the law or refusing to believe in Christ? Isn't the ONLY way to be GOOD through faith in Christ? So, wouldn't it reason the only way to be "evil" according to that standard of righteousness is through unbelief? Both groups sin, right? Both groups broke the law, right? So what exactly is the difference between the good ones and the evil ones Archangel? FAITH IN CHRIST.

Got to run, i'll get to the rest later...

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 3:18 does not deny all men are condemned under the law as Romans 3:19-20 explicitly states they are. Therefore, John 3:18 does not teach there is only one sin and that is the sin of unbelief in Christ. Such a interpretation pits Paul in Romans 3:19-20 against Christ in John 3:18.

What John 3:18 teaches is that all men are condemned already by the law of God and come into this world condemned by the Law of God "in Adam" ind will stay condemned by the Law lof God as long as they remain in a state of unbelief in regard to the only provision for peace with God - beleif in Christ.

 

[Dr. Walter]

From the interpretations I have been reading from your posts on such passages as Hebrews 3 and 6 it would appear that you believe true born again children of God can and do apostatize from saving faith.

Thus you reject the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works. I conclude that by your interpretations of these texts as they demand that a true child of God becomes UNJUSTIFIED before God by what they do or fail to do = works.

Remember "works" begins with the attitude and decisions of the heart before they manifest in the words and actions of the body. From the heart proceed bad words and actions as much as good words and actions. Works are inclusive of the internal and external actions of men. Hence, your interpretations demonstrate you believe that at least the internal actions of the heart, mind and will can forfeit salvation. Thus, if salvation can be lost by bad works then it must be at least maintained by good works and that is a denial of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works.

I would like to point out that the theological reason for the apostasy in Hebrews 3 is clearly stated in Hebrews 4:1-2 to be the failure to intially believe in the gospel at all. I also pointed out that the hypothetical consideration in Hebrews 6:4-6 is repudiated to be a reality in regard to true believers (vv. 7-17). However, such a position directly repudiates the words of Christ in John 6:37-39. He categorically denies that any which the Father gave him will be lost and all that the Father gives him do come to him and none shall be cast out.

 

[psalms109:31]

Love

1 Corinthians 13
Love
1If I speak in the tongues[Or languages ] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Romans 13:8
[ Love, for the Day is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ezekiel 3:
Warning to Israel
16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [Or in ; also in verses 19 and 20 ] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."
James 5:
17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Hebrews 3:
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[ Psalm 95:7,8]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

It is men who try to turn our love into a work!!!

 

[Skandelon]

My friend,

In all theological positions you are under condemnation until the atonement is applied.

Okay, but WHY? Because of unbelief. NOT because you haven't meet the demands of the law...those have been met "once and for ALLLLLLLLLLLLL." God's words, not mine.

Even your theological preference does not remove condemnation until after application. Therefore, the lost sinner is under condemnation.

agreed, condemned for unbelief, as Paul said.

"...he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

If someone who doesn't believe in Jesus walked up and asked Paul, "Why am I condemned already?" He would not say, "Because God didn't choose you," or "because Adam ate the forbidden fruit." You KNOW what he would have said, because he ALREADY SAID IT: "because you HAVE NOT believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

 

[Skandelon]

John 3:18 does not deny all men are condemned under the law as Romans 3:19-20 explicitly states they are. Therefore, John 3:18 does not teach there is only one sin and that is the sin of unbelief in Christ.

I never attempted to argue that there is only one sin....only that there is one sin that separates those who are condemned and those who are not. Unbelief. Both believers and unbelievers sin but the one difference is their faith in Christ and thus the ONLY reason a man is condemned is due to their unbelief.

What John 3:18 teaches is that all men are condemned already by the law of God and come into this world condemned by the Law of God "in Adam" ind will stay condemned by the Law lof God as long as they remain in a state of unbelief in regard to the only provision for peace with God - beleif in Christ.

I actually don't disagree with this, but the problem is that you really don't support this statement if you believe that this "provision" is not for all men, because then the law has not really been fulfilled by Christ once and for all. It has only been fulfilled once and for a few and thus the law is still the measure of righteousness for most of the world. That contradicts Paul's words in Romans 3 which clearly states there is a NEW RIGHTEOUSNESS being revealed for all who have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.

Tell me this, Dr. Walter, how is it that in one chapter Paul makes the claim that "no one is righteous, no not one," and in the next chapter says, "Abraham believe and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Isn't that a contradiction to say on the one hand that NNE is RIGHTEOUS and on the other hand point out a man who was declared RIGHTEOUS?

Don't you see there are TWO different types of righteousness being discussed? ...one accomplished by the measure of the law and the other accomplished by grace through faith in a person who fulfilled that law once and for all!

 

[Skandelon]

From the interpretations I have been reading from your posts on such passages as Hebrews 3 and 6 it would appear that you believe true born again children of God can and do apostatize from saving faith.

You will need to provide my quote that gave you this appearance if you want me to clarify it. Thanks

 

[Skandelon]

Archangel, this is the continuation from the my last post in response to you. While we obviously disagree at least you actually attempt to address the passages and arguments presented instead of just restating your position over and over, unlike some here, and I appreciate that.

You point out 2 Corinthians 5:19: that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

The problem? This is Paul's discussion of a "new creation." Paul's words clearly show he is speaking, not of the entirety of humanity, but of Christians. V. 17 "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation." In v. 18 Paul uses the plural "us" referring to Christians and reconciliation. Then in v. 19 comes the clarification that is governed by the preceding verses. Then in the latter verses of this particular pericope, he returns to the "we" language, clearly showing that Paul is not talking about humanity in general, but Christians.

Clearly he is addressing Christians, of course, but he is OBVIOUSLY doing so in such a way to show that they (the believers) have been given the "ministry of reconciliation" so as take the "appeal to be reconciled to the whole world." The very first sentence of this paragraph sums Paul's intent up pretty well, "Since, then, we know what it is to fear the LORD, we try to persuade men." Something a Calvinist would NEVER SAY.

And he sums it up even more clearly in his final sentence describing this ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

You point out 2 Thessalonians 2:10: and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

The problem? Paul is, again, not giving universal application of this verse. The greater context of the passage is that belief in Christ is the only antidote to be released from the condemnation we are already under.

But according to your theology those who "refuse to love the truth and so be saved" were never provided this so-called "antidote" so as to be "released from the condemnation." Thus, you negate the very reason Paul lists for why they are perishing, "because they refused to love the truth and so be saved" when from you perspective they "couldn't love the truth" because salvation was never provided for them. The TRUTH for them is that they are non-elect and destined to eternal hell...there is nothing for them to refuse because nothing has been offered to them.

You point out John 12:46-48 (not quoted by me for space issues)

The problem? Jesus is referring to Deuteronomy 18 where it says: 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. Condemning someone for rejecting the words of a prophet is part of condemnation, not the sum-total of condemnation.

The verses you reference are nothing short of the textbook definition of proof-texting. Why? Because you ignore a myriad of passages that clearly show condemnation based on sinful works:

I don't deny that condemnation was once based on law... i.e. "no one is righteous no not one." There is no shortage of passages that speak of our failing to keep the demands of the law and thus in need of being saved from condemnation. But, the point of our contention has to do with the scope of Christ atoning work.

You believe he fulfilled the law for a select few.
I believe as scripture says that he fulfilled the law once and for all man. You believe his work in only applied to the elect few.
I believe as scripture says that the gift is reconciliation for the whole world.

Matthew 12:36 I tell you, son the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Now, if you were correct, those careless words--sins--would not bring condemnation because the would have already been paid for.

Again, those with faith and those without faith use careless words, yet somehow they are different, both are not condemned. I wonder what makes them different? FAITH.

If you were correct this passage should not be in the Bible: Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” If you were correct, this should be greatly truncated to say "the unbelievers' portion will be in the lake that burns..."

Again, you and I both know that there will be murders, liars, sorcerers and all these in heaven one day. Why? FAITH. Those who are condemned are NOT condemned because they were a murder, liar or whatever, they are condemned because they REFUSE TO BELIEVE!

Revelation 20:12-13 shows a judgment and subsequent condemnation according to what one has done: 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Well, if that's the case God help us all because if we are all being judged "according to what we've done" then we are all going to hell. Don't you get it? What separates those being condemned and those who are not is NOT their behavior, ITS THEIR FAITH. THOSE CONDEMNED ARE CONDEMNED BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE, PERIOD.

Condemnation is not on the basis of unbelief--it is on the basis of sin.

Your argument holds no water and, I'm afraid, it threatens to make shipwreck of your faith--only because it minimizes present-day sin to an almost non-existent level.

Sin (breaking the law) has been taken care of once and for all, that is the heart of the good news. Otherwise, its only good news for a select few, and really really bad news for the mass of humanity. What makes the "gospel," the "good news," is that there is a way out, there is reconciliation, there is hope, but YOU deny that hope for most people thus redefining the word gospel to mean "good new for some and really terrible news for the rest of you."

 

[Skandelon]

Archangel,

Also, why do you think Israel as a whole was cut off? Paul says it was because of unbelief:

Romans 11:20 NIV
Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

And how are they grafted back in?

Romans 11:23
And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Additionally, when Jesus spoke of the coming of the Holy spirit he said, "8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me."

So, why does the HS convict the world of sin? Is it because they are condemned by Adam's sin? Is it because they are condemned because of their bad behavior? What is the REAL difference? What is the real distinction between those condemned and those who are not? He tells you why: "because they do not believe in Me"

UNBELIEF

 

[Skandelon]

Hate to sandbag you but how did we miss this one:

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

checkmate


Consider this analogy:

Suppose everyone in the world was born with a disease and every person in the world was offered the antidote. Thus, only those who refused to take the antidote died of the disease. What would you say is the reason for dying in this scenario? Is the Disease the real reason? No, because they were offered the antidote, they didn't have to die of the disease, thus the disease is NOT the real reason they died. The real reason they died was because they refused the antidote. Now, if the antidote had never been provided, then yes, the reason for dying would be the disease. But once the solution has been purchased, once the antidote has been paid for then there is NO other reason for dying except for refusing to accept the antidote.

The reason you all have a problem with this is because you don't believe God is really providing the antidote to all men, he is just pretending to offer it to everyone thus the issue of divine culpability and injustice. This is what creates theological inconsistencies and biblical contradictions.

 

[The Archangel]

Hate to sandbag you but how did we miss this one:

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

checkmate

Obviously you're as bad at chess as you are at theology.

This is a very selective reading and I'm fairly certain you know it. You so much want to "blow off" Revelation 20:12-13 12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."

It is an inescapable fact that this text, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes you, regardless of how many holes it punches in your so-called theology, that mankind is condemned for sin--"According to what they had done."

John 5:24 clearly states "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

The default position is outlined clearly: Judgment and death. The one believing does not come into judgment and passes from death to life. So, for the believer there is no judgment because they are a believer. For the non-believer, however, the default positions of judgment and death are still in place and, as Revelation shows, the non-believer is condemned because of what they have done.

This is basic to any orthodox theology. The theology you espouse is not orthodox--since it is some flavor of Pelagianism--and Pelagianism was resoundingly condemned in AD 418 as a heresy. And, as I recall, Augustine was on the "orthodox" side of that debate. After all, Calvin was essentially Augustinian in his views and Augustine was Pauline in his views.

You know what I find very troubling? You have the audacity to say yours "is the biblical position" (talking here about the basis of condemnation) and then you ignore plain text in Revelation 20. You eve bold-italic "Yell" an emotionally-charged answer that in no way, shape, or form deals with the text itself. What is more you pick and choose your texts and you don't seek to, pardon the phrase, "Systematize" them. Any good theologian will tell you that Systematic Theology is vitally important to getting theology right.

Perhaps I'll deal with your earlier response. Perhaps not. We'll see what time permits.

The Archangel

 

[Skandelon]

Obviously you're as bad at chess as you are at theology.

This is a very selective reading and I'm fairly certain you know it. You so much want to "blow off" Revelation 20:12-13 12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."

Go back a page and you will see that I address this passage along with all the others you addressed.

Oh, you never actually address the verses above. Why was Israel cut off? Why are these people condemned? Say it with me, "because he does not believe."

 

[Skandelon]

This is a very selective reading and I'm fairly certain you know it.

I'm sorry, which "reading" of this text would you prefer, because not a single one of them seems to do anything to help you out of your checkmate.

NIV
5 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

NSV
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

ESV
15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

HCS
15 Then He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I'll let you select the reading you prefer and please feel free to bring in the whole context of the entire passage if you think that will help your case...

You just need to back up this accusation of this being "selective." Thanks

 

[The Archangel]

Go back a page and you will see that I address this passage along with all the others you addressed.

Oh, you never actually address the verses above. Why was Israel cut off? Why are these people condemned? Say it with me, "because he does not believe."

Actually, I did. Belief is very important, on this we all agree. Belief is the basis of being saved. But, again, you ignore the special status Israel had. Even with all of their first-hand knowledge of God (they had seen His miracles with their own eyes), they didn't believe. I have addressed this with you before.

You did not, in fact, address the Revelation passage. You gave some pathetic (not in the modern usage but from the Greek understanding of Pathos) comments that didn't deal with the phrase "they were judged according to what they had done." You dismissed it out of hand.

The onus is on you to explain "they were judged according to what they had done."

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

I'm sorry, which "reading" of this text would you prefer, because not a single one of them seems to do anything to help you out of your checkmate.

NIV
5 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

NSV
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

ESV
15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

HCS
15 Then He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I'll let you select the reading you prefer and please feel free to bring in the whole context of the entire passage if you think that will help your case...

You just need to back up this accusation of this being "selective." Thanks

I was referring to a selective reading of the entire bible, not that particular verse (which should have been obvious from my discussion of systematic theology).

Again, you chess skills are lacking and you are being selective--at least until you deal with Revelation 20:12-13.

The Archangel

 

[Skandelon]

I was referring to a selective reading of the entire bible, not that particular verse (which should have been obvious from my discussion of systematic theology).

Again, you chess skills are lacking and you are being selective--at least until you deal with Revelation 20:12-13.

The Archangel

You must be reading my posts selectively because, as I mentioned, I already addressed the Revelation passage in a response to you on the last page.

Plus, saying that a verse is "a selective reading" doesn't remove the burden for you to explain and expound on its meaning and intent. For goodness sake you guys spent three months dissecting the 1 John passage and for some reason you pass over this one as being "a selective reading?" I have presented many texts, all of which clearly show that condemnation is due to unbelief, not just one selective verse.

 

[Skandelon]

If a believing murderer and a non-believeing murderer stand before God on judgement day why will God say the one will be saved and the other condemned?

They are both murderers. They are both sinners. So, what is the difference?

Why is one condemned and the other is not? It is very simple Archangel. BELIEF.

When you quote the Revelation passages which list all the sins you fail to realize that those are merely symptoms of the root problem. People sin because they don't believe, thus unbelief is the reason for their bad behavior. Unbelief is the primary cause, while the sin is the effect. Thus, if someone sins, it is not the sin that condemns them, it is the unbelief that lead them to sin. Therefore, the only remedy is to leave the unbelief. The sin has been paid for, now all that is lacking is faith.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I never attempted to argue that there is only one sin....only that there is one sin that separates those who are condemned and those who are not. Unbelief. Both believers and unbelievers sin but the one difference is their faith in Christ and thus the ONLY reason a man is condemned is due to their unbelief.

I actually don't disagree with this, but the problem is that you really don't support this statement if you believe that this "provision" is not for all men, because then the law has not really been fulfilled by Christ once and for all. It has only been fulfilled once and for a few and thus the law is still the measure of righteousness for most of the world. That contradicts Paul's words in Romans 3 which clearly states there is a NEW RIGHTEOUSNESS being revealed for all who have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.

Tell me this, Dr. Walter, how is it that in one chapter Paul makes the claim that "no one is righteous, no not one," and in the next chapter says, "Abraham believe and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Isn't that a contradiction to say on the one hand that NNE is RIGHTEOUS and on the other hand point out a man who was declared RIGHTEOUS?

Don't you see there are TWO different types of righteousness being discussed? ...one accomplished by the measure of the law and the other accomplished by grace through faith in a person who fulfilled that law once and for all!

My friend,

The only place where there is no condemnation is "in Christ" (Rom. 8:1). If you are outside of Christ you are under condemnation due to sin, violating the law. Those who have never heard the gospel go to hell not because of the sin of unbelief but due to sin against the light God gives them (Rom. 1:19-20).

John 3:18 in its context refers only to those who have heard the gospel, the Jews unto whom Christ was sent. This is the light that came into the world in the context and the audiance he is speaking directly to is the JEWS who rejected Him.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jesus is telling Nicodemus and his Jewish friends (use of the plural "ye" in John 3:3,5) that God has sent His Son - THIS LIGHT into the world THROUGH ISRAEL and those who reject THIS LIGHT are condemned but those who receive THIS LIGHT are not condemned.

Those who never see or hear THIS LIGHT are not condemned to hell for rejecting what they never heard or saw but are condemned to hell for rejecting whatever light God has given them (light of conscience, light of God in creation, light of God's Word, etc.).

Paul claims there is none righteous, no not one, because all have been condemned under the law in chapter three of Romans because you don't need to hear the gospel to be condemned to hell.

The only difference between Abraham in Romans 4 and all mankind in Romans 3 is THE GRACE OF GOD as Abraham was just as ungodly as anyone else. God's grace made the difference and God's grace alone (Rom. 9:5-11).

 

[The Archangel]

If a believing murderer and a non-believeing murderer stand before God on judgement day why will God say the one will be saved and the other condemned?

They are both murderers. They are both sinners. So, what is the difference?

Why is one condemned and the other is not? It is very simple Archangel. BELIEF.

No, the difference is the blood of Christ shed on the behalf of the believer. Believing in no way pays for sin. Believing merely appropriates for the believer (or credits to the believer) what has already been accomplished by Christ.

Even those Calvinistic 4-Pointers (those that reject Limited Atonement) get this concept. They believe in a universal atonement but the appropriation of that atonement only comes when we believe. While I do not agree with this position (as I agree with limited or particular atonement) this position is far better theologically and far more defensible than the one you are holding to.

Your theology gives man way too much credit. What you have described here is that man is neutral and man chooses to save himself. This bears no resemblance to the Biblical message.

When you quote the Revelation passages which list all the sins you fail to realize that those are merely symptoms of the root problem. People sin because they don't believe, thus unbelief is the reason for their bad behavior. Unbelief is the primary cause, while the sin is the effect. Thus, if someone sins, it is not the sin that condemns them, it is the unbelief that lead them to sin. Therefore, the only remedy is to leave the unbelief. The sin has been paid for, now all that is lacking is faith.

Wrong, dead wrong. The root problem is not "unbelief." Unbelief doesn't cause the sins listed in Revelation 20:12-13 a sin-nature does--For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (Mark 7:21-23). The heart is the issue and unbelief is but one sign of a sinful, depraved heart.

Do you want more proof? Let me use you own words:

People sin because they don't believe, thus unbelief is the reason for their bad behavior. Unbelief is the primary cause, while the sin is the effect.
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This simply cannot be. If you were correct, believers (ie. Christians) would not sin because they believe. So you are left with unsavory task of trying to explain why believers still sin when you say sin is due to unbelief.

The Archangel