Strivings about the Law

[BobRyan]

As pointed out elsewhere your argument fails on this point because you have no way to accept the Bible teaching on perseverance in the way the Bible states it -

A few examples will suffice to demonstrate the point.


Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

All the texts you quote can be perfectly harmonized with the absolute statement "of all that the Father giveth me I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

Indeed it can IF we allow Christ's statement in John 6:40 regarding those "Who BELIEVE" for as James 2 points out - belief has action that is perfectly consistent with the texts listed above.

John 15 and the vine has nothing to do with redemption "in Christ" but rather ones daily "walk" in Christ. It deals with progressive sanctification

indeed it does "Branches IN ME" -- which is why "being REMOVED and BURNED in the fire" in that case -- is not a good thing or a "saved thing" nor something that you can look forward to as if it were a "gospel promise" for staying saved.

Galatians 5:4 deals with falling from the DOCTRINE of Grace in THEIR MINDS (Gal. 3:1) not from the state of grace in justification.

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

There is no "in their minds only" restriction placed on this text.

Matthew 10:22 is set in an eschatalogical context dealing with physical endurance to the end.

No it is applied directly to his listeners because Christ is at that very moment "Sending" out the 12 on their first evangelistic tour.


8 ""Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.
9 "" Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,
10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.
11 ""And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.
12 ""As you enter the house, give it your greeting.
13 ""If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
14 ""Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
15 ""Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.
16 "" behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
17 ""But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;
18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 "" But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20 ""For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 "" Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
23 ""But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
24 "" A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.
25 ""It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

26 ""Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
27 "" What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.

Christ does not say "LIVE for 2000 years until the end of time - for the one that lives for 2000 years until the very end - will be saved".

Rather He speaks of enduring in all ages - the hatred of those who persecute the saints.


21 "" Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Hebrews 2 and 3 are defined in Hebrews 4:1-2 pertaining to those who professed but no faith was mixed with the gospel when they heard it.

Paul says “if WE hold fast” in Heb 4:1-2 Paul speaks of ‘THEM’ the OT people who did not have faith in God. In the texts listed above it is “WE” the current group of the saints that are being encouraged to hold on – to persevere. Thus – the point remains.

Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Hebrews 10:35-39 is found in the context of progressive sanctification not justification and in regard to the daily trespass offering for sin (Heb. 10:18-22) rather than the once a year sacrifice on the day of atonement (Heb. 10:5-17).

Progressive sanctification is experienced by the saved saint alone. It is the saved saint that is being warned not to “shrink back to destruction”.

The point remains.



1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

I Corinthians 15:1-2 is defined by the immediate context to have reference to those who deny the resurrection only. Those who do not receive the gospel in the first place but a distorted gospel.

In 1Cor 15 Paul does not claim that all his readers deny the resurrection – in fact in 1Cor 5 Paul insists that the church “remain pure” by expelling that ONE person from the group that needed church discipline. This is hardly a case of “you are not saved because NONE of you hold fast” rather this is a case of speaking to the save “who STAND” and warning them about the failure of not “holding fast”

Again – your dismissal of this point is not supported by the details in the text itself.



Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Romans 11:22 has to do with NATIONS not individuals as the same nation that was cut off is grafted back in "again." It refers to the chosen sphere of operation (Israel versus Gentile nations) from which God calls out his elect.

No – not a single pagan “nation” was grafted into Christ and found “Standing by faith”.

No pagan nations are being warned here not to fall from their “standing by faith alone” glorious position – as much as imagining such a thing might be “necessary” to a sacrifice-all defense for OSAS.

You show your need to dismiss the texts – but you do not show that the content and context of the texts allow you to do it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

And then - innexplicably - instead of addresssing the texts raised in opposition to OSAS - Steaver chooses to explain why he is not reading them.

"OSAS" ???

You must be thinking of another thread. This one is about those who "strive about the law".

Paul said that those who strive about the law are hereticks, subverted and sinneth.

The Acts 15 council makes it perfectly clear whom Paul is speaking of here. Those who want the believers in Christ circumcised AND commanded to keep the law of Moses.

Now let's look at who on this board is preaching that believers must keep the law of Moses or they will not keep their salvation.

That would be you and you receive this false teaching from the false teacher EGW who has sadly infected thousands upon thousands of God's children.

This statement is eactly what the SDA is teaching....

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ"

Does this false teacher sound familiar to you? And would you not totally agree with him?

 

[Dr. Walter]

I have tried to point out that Acts 15 is inseparable from the issue dealt with in Galatians and there two alternatives are contrasted by the words "justification by faith" versus "justification by the works of the law."

The issue of circumcision was the FIRST STEP toward a life committed to keeping the law of Moses. Hence, for them to require circumcision is the same thing as requiring to be "justified by the works of the law."

In the time of Moses, circumcision occurred at eight days old in order to begin A LIFE OF LAW KEEPING as it was the committment to LAW KEEPING and that is precisely why Paul tells the Galatians:

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

So, this buisness that Paul was simply responding against becoming a Jew iin order to be saved, is nothing but a deception because a "Jew" is a person that declares their committment to a life of law keeping by being circumcised.

"OSAS" ???

You must be thinking of another thread. This one is about those who "strive about the law".

Paul said that those who strive about the law are hereticks, subverted and sinneth.

The Acts 15 council makes it perfectly clear whom Paul is speaking of here. Those who want the believers in Christ circumcised AND commanded to keep the law of Moses.

Now let's look at who on this board is preaching that believers must keep the law of Moses or they will not keep their salvation.

That would be you and you receive this false teaching from the false teacher EGW who has sadly infected thousands upon thousands of God's children.

This statement is eactly what the SDA is teaching....

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ"

Does this false teacher sound familiar to you? And would you not totally agree with him?

 

[BobRyan]

Your response to the scriptures provided is "less than compelling"

 

[Dr. Walter]

Spiritual life is required before spiritual light can be processed (I Cor. 2:14) and even among those who have spiritual life, ultimately God must teach them or they will not understand (I Jn. 2:29).

 

[steaver]

I have tried to point out that Acts 15 is inseparable from the issue dealt with in Galatians and there two alternatives are contrasted by the words "justification by faith" versus "justification by the works of the law."

The issue of circumcision was the FIRST STEP toward a life committed to keeping the law of Moses. Hence, for them to require circumcision is the same thing as requiring to be "justified by the works of the law."

In the time of Moses, circumcision occurred at eight days old in order to begin A LIFE OF LAW KEEPING as it was the committment to LAW KEEPING and that is precisely why Paul tells the Galatians:

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

So, this buisness that Paul was simply responding against becoming a Jew iin order to be saved, is nothing but a deception because a "Jew" is a person that declares their committment to a life of law keeping by being circumcised.

Bob "sees" this but I believe his commitment to the SDA he congregates with is stronger than his desire for truth. I know that it must be a tough thing to abandon worship or Christian fellowship with friends or family and to basically throw in the trash years worth of saved notes defending what one comes to realize has been a false doctrine. But trash is trash and it needs to be done away with, house cleaning, so to speak.

Paul went through this when he ignorantly believed that keeping the law of Moses was the way to be saved. God had to literally drop him in his tracks. I hope it would not have to come to that for Bob here. He has had plenty of sound biblical council, enough to be considered without excuse.

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.


Rom 10:3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Judaizers, Ellen White disciples, Joseph Smith disciples, all these reject God righteousness apart from the law and desire to establish their own.

God says to us...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The law of Moses keepers say...

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ"


What can Bob say against this light?

Your response to the scriptures provided is "less than compelling"

In other words, he has nothing to offer. It is good that he sees he cannot refute these things, but he needs to repent and embrace the truth. Stop the "striving about the law" and take a place in the loving grace provided freely by our Lord and Saviour.

 

[steaver]

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tts 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tts 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tts 3:9¶But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Tts 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tts 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

According to Paul, those who strive about the law are hereticks, subverted, sinneth and condemned of themselves.

Would like to know the boards consensus on this?

Should these men not be considered brethern in Christ?

Or could they be brethen in Christ but need to be put out of fellowship until they repent?

 

[BobRyan]

"according to Paul"

"But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31


Hebrews 8

8…behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 "" for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "" and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, "know the Lord,' for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 "" for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.''


According to John -
1John 5

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Steaver - your argument is "with the text" -- as usual.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

"according to Paul"

"But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Quoting this does not help your argument. It's nothing less than an Athiest quoting "There is no God". Without context it is useless.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

Amen!

Hebrews 8

8…behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 "" for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "" and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, "know the Lord,' for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 "" for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.''

Amen!

According to John -
1John 5

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Steaver - your argument is "with the text" -- as usual.

I have no argument with these text. I do show that I love God by keeping Jesus' commandments.

What Paul has proven is that those who strive about the law are subverted and sinneth. So those who preach the keeping of the law of Moses as a requirement for salvation, as those spoken of did in Acts 15, should repent.

Does the SDA strive about the law?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
"according to Paul"

"But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Quoting this does not help your argument. It's nothing less than an Athiest quoting "There is no God". Without context it is useless.

Your "need" to ignore scripture --- noted.

Let us know how that works out for you.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul said "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

and this is the message of the Jerusalem council - as we see from their appeal to Lev 17:10 regarding the eating of meat with blood in it and regarding the 7th Commandment.

The NT authors always "uphold scripture" as we see in 2Tim 3:16.

Thus in Acts 15 the argument is made that Christians are hearing Moses preached every Sabbath in the Synagogues. Acts 15:21

In Acts 3:22 (Moses) and Acts 3:24 (Samuel and all the prophets) the NT evangelists argued that the Gospel is proven and established "sola scriptura" on the basis of scripture. (Hint - that was the OT)

In Acts 16 - Paul requires that Timothy be circumcised - also in harmony with the Acts 15 Jerusalem council.

In Rom 3:31 - Paul says "do we then make void the Law of God - God forbid! IN fact we establish the Law of God" -- also in harmony with the Acts 15 council.

And so also Paul's argument in Romans 6 that Christians are not to sin against God's Law - in complete harmony with the Acts 15 council.

But what we do not see - is Paul insisting that gentiles "become Jews".

The Eph 2 statement by Paul makes it clear that the issue of circumcision - was in fact the issue of "becoming a full convert to Judaism" not merely to be a gentile "believer".

Eph 2
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "" Uncircumcision'' by the so-called "" Circumcision,'' which is performed in the flesh by human hands
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

The Jerusalem council argues against the idea that Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be saved -
Acts 15:1 1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."


And so when Paul argues in Eph 6:1-4 that the 5th commandment is binding as are all in the "UNIT" of Ten - what scripture calls "the Ten Commandments" - he is in complete harmony with the Acts 15 council.

And so it is with complete freedom that James quotes OT commands NOT listed in the Acts 15 council (as does Paul) and affirm that they too are binding on all Christians.

James 2
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?
7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?
8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

Notice that James argues this point based on "what God said".

He refers to the Acts 15 affirmation of the 7th commandment then goes directly to the 6th commandment saying that "God also said" do not Murder and so IT TOO is binding on Christians because - God "also said" that commandment.

Those who like to imagine that these texts are not in compliance with the Acts 15 council - are simply out on a limb --

Your argument is "with the text of scripture".

"

This one is about those who "strive about the law".

Paul said that those who strive about the law are hereticks, subverted and sinneth.

The Acts 15 council makes it perfectly clear whom Paul is speaking of here.

Indeed - I show that the Acts 15 council's appeal to Lev 17:10 as authoritative as well as their appeal to the 7th commandment fits perfectly the argument of Paul in 1Cor 7:19 and of John in 1John 5..

But you have to actually read the posts to know that.

You knew that right?



Or were you think that James was "striving about the law" in James 2, and Paul in Romans 2:11-16, and Paul in 1Cor 7:19 -- are they all just engaged in "so much striving" in your view?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Indeed - I show that the Acts 15 council's appeal to Lev 17:10 as authoritative as well as their appeal to the 7th commandment fits perfectly the argument of Paul in 1Cor 7:19 and of John in 1John 5..

But you have to actually read the posts to know that.

You knew that right?

You have no need to show the obvious. All here agree with Paul...

2Ti 3:16All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You have to stay in the context of Acts 15 which is about the law of Moses and whether or not it must be kept in addition to faith for salvation.

Here it is;

Act 15:1¶And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

At the council it is further explained;

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.

The law of Moses has many benefits for Christian living as noted in the scriptures you provided as well as 2Ti 3:16. This isn't the issue of the Jerusalem council.

The issue in Acts 15 is does the keeping of the law of Moses provide any justification unto salvation. Which the apostles agreed in one accord that it does not. Thus anyone who strives about the law in a way that it must be obeyed for salvation is as Paul said, subverted and sinneth, a heretick.

Or were you think that James was "striving about the law" in James 2, and Paul in Romans 2:11-16, and Paul in 1Cor 7:19 -- are they all just engaged in "so much striving" in your view?

Not at all. James nor Paul ever argues that the keeping of the law of Moses saves anyone. If they were then they would be going against their own decision in the Acts 15 council and Paul would be contradicting his own rebuke to those who say you must keep the law of Moses to be saved.

Paul teaches us that the law is good if it is used lawfully. Never does Paul teach that the law has some part in justification. Those who use the law to bring their disciples under bondage are hereticks. Those who teach their disciples that unless they obey the law of Moses they cannot be saved are subverted and sinneth.

Does the SDA teach this? If they do, then they are subverted and sinneth according to Paul.

 

[BobRyan]

You have no need to show the obvious. All here agree with Paul...

2Ti 3:16All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Then things have improved a great deal on this thread since my last visit.

1 Cor 7
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but [b]what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.



Rom 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.




Rom 3:31 NASB
"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31 NASB


Rom 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Heb 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
…
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

 

[Dr. Walter]

Believers are not dead to sin EXPERIENTIALLY or SUBJECTIVELY. Neither are they free from the presence of sin or free from the influence/power of sin.

Believers are LEGALLY or JUDICIALLY dead to sin by faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. Like a slave they have been emancipated by law because Christ PAID the law and we died to the law by the body of Christ on the cross where the law took out its full penalty upon Christ. Like a woman whose husband has died they are LEGALLY FREE from that husband.

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your view of salvation is nothing more or less than Christ paying the entrance fee but you obtaining actual salvation by your works.

Like all legalists you must reinterpret the Law's standard of righteousness to a level that you can obey. This is exactly how the Jewish religious leaders interpreted the standard of God's righteousness.

In Matthew 5:20 Jesus tells his disciples that the standard of righteousness good enough for entrance into heaven had to EXCEED the standard set by the Scribes and Pharisees:

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

However, the standard of righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees was determined by their interpretation of the TEN COMMANDMENTS and all applications of them in Scripture. Therefore, Jesus had to give the proper interpretation of the TEN COMMANDMENTS and all applications of them in scritpure to show that God's understanding of them was HIGHER than their interpretation of them (Mt. 5:21-45).

1. They interpreted to law's standard of righteousness in EXTERNALS whereas Christ interpreted them as SPIRITUAL dealing with attitudes and motives.

They could KEEP the righteousness demanded by the Law as long as they interpreted EXTERNALLY but when the mere LOOK of lust violates the Law and mere unjustified anger violates the law then ALL MEN violate them and NO MAN can rise to that standard of righteous obedience because in order to rise to that standard of righteousness you would have to be AS GOOD AS GOD:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. - Mt. 5:48

"There is none good but one and that is God" - Mt. 19:17

However, remember Jesus is not speaking to lost people in Matthew 5-7 but to His disciples. He is not speaking about initial justification but for ENTRANCE INTO HEAVEN.

This is the REVEALED WILL of the Father in regard to righteousness needed to enter heaven and all who come with any less righteousness will be judged "workers of iniquity" in spite of their professed good works:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are professed beleivers who devoted themselves to obeying Christ's commands all "in thy name." They were never saved and then lost because Christ "NEVER" knew them. By omnisicnce He knows every person but in regard to salvation he "NEVER" knew them.

This whole sermon ASSUMES faith in Christ by those who are "blessed" in Matthew 7:3-12 as the very first four beatitudes describe the conversion experience inside of the "blessed" person. It is addressed to those who have repented of their sins and professed Christ and were baptized as the parallel gospel account will prove. The following analogy of the two foundations and houses built upon them refer to the foundations of faith in Christ as the foundation of salvation and the house is your life of works in contrast to the foundation of a mixture of "Lord, Lord" profession but with "have we not done" as the basis to ENTER heaven. It is the foundation that determined which house stood in judgement not the houses (lives).

 

[BobRyan]

Believers are not dead to sin EXPERIENTIALLY or SUBJECTIVELY. Neither are they free from the presence of sin or free from the influence/power of sin.

Believers are LEGALLY or JUDICIALLY dead to sin

Your argument is with the text. Paul does not argue in Romans 6 "keep sinnING because you are only free JUDICIALLY from sin - but not in real life - not in terms of your actions".

Notice the inconvenient details "of scripture" on this point.


Romans 6

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.





James 2
8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

 

[BobRyan]

Your view of salvation is nothing more or less than Christ paying the entrance fee but you obtaining actual salvation by your works.

Like all legalists you must reinterpret

Wrong again.

The court room of Dan 7 that "passes judgment in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 by looking into the books of Dan 7:9-10 is not "changing the trees by merely looking at them" the way you imagine.

the Law's standard of righteousness to a level that you can obey. This is exactly how the Jewish religious leaders interpreted the standard of God's righteousness.

In Matthew 5:20 Jesus tells his disciples that the standard of righteousness good enough for entrance into heaven had to EXCEED the standard set by the Scribes and Pharisees:

Hint: that is because as we see in Romans 8:4-9 - the mind set on the flesh DOES NOT submit to the Law of God "neither indeed CAN it".

Your efforts to dismiss these texts - is only getting you caught on the points where they debunk your argument.

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Law FULFILLED in the case of those who DO NOT walk according to the Flesh! As for those who DO walk in the flesh and refuse the Spirit of God …

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Paul begins the book of Romans proclaiming obedience of faith among the Gentiles.

This whole sermon ASSUMES faith in Christ by those who are "blessed" in Matthew 7:3-12 as the very first four beatitudes describe the conversion experience inside of the "blessed" person. It is addressed to those who have repented of their sins and professed Christ and were baptized

I am more than happy to agree that among those in Matt 7 is the Ezek 18 example of the righteous who later turn from their saved state. Not sure why you think this would be an issue for my POV.

Also - I am more than happy to agree that among Christ's followers in Matt 7 there were the saved saints - who where being warned that it is not everyone who "says Lord lord" that will actually enter heaven on that last day - but it is those that "DO the will of My Father" including hearing Christ's words and acting on them.

Why you think this might be a problem for my POV is escaping me at the moment.

What did I say to lead you to that conclusion?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

In saying that we are not LITERALLY dead to sin does not contradict anything said in the context. In saying that we are not EXPERIENTIALLY dead to sin does not contradict anything in this context. To assume the opposite and take it in the ABSOLUTE or LITERAL sense is either to claim nonsense or to claim sinless perfection which the Scriptures condemn (I Jn. 1:8-10).

All Paul is saying is that the justified man (chs. 3-5) is also a man being sanctified through his spiritual union with Christ. That spiritual union through new birth is publicly advertised in baptism. The very fact that he says "let us" shows he is not talking about sinless perfection but inborn desire to sin less and strive against sin reigning in the Christian life. In order to defeat sin we must RECKON ourself "dead" to sin because that is our LEGAL POSITION in Christ as illustrated in Romans 4-5.

Your argument is with the text. Paul does not argue in Romans 6 "keep sinnING because you are only free JUDICIALLY from sin - but not in real life - not in terms of your actions".

Notice the inconvenient details "of scripture" on this point.


Romans 6

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.





James 2
8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty