The Moral Law's Standard of Righteousness

[Dr. Walter]

Is this the best you can do? If it is, then you have sealed your own casket in regard to this text. Beleiving is inclusive of coming to Christ. Notice that verse 40 follows as consequential to verses 37-39 not merely in chronological order of the texts but in chronological order in a cause and effect relationship. None believe who do not come to the Son. If you don't come to the Son you don't believe in the Son. You may attempt to argue that not all who come beleive but you cannot argue that ANY which the Father give to the Son fail to believe/come to the Son and NOT ONE of them will be lost.

Get the cause and effect order. Being given by the Father PRECEDES coming to the Son ("shall" v. 37). Not a single one given fails to come to the son in faith and not a single one given that comes in faith fails to be saved. That is precisely why both John 6:39 and John 6:40 end the same way with a guaranteed salvation resurrection because they are talking about the same person who was FIRST given by the Father in order to come believing to the Son:

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


This final phrase in verse 39 and 40 means ultimate salvation because it is first used in verse 39 which is immediately preceded with the guarantee of final salvaition "SHALL LOSE NOTHING." This is what it means in verse 40 as well becuase the very wording of verse 40 states that as well. Thus, this is exactly what it means in verse 44 the third time it is used or the "him" drawn is the "him" raised to eternal salvation.

Furthermore, this text does NOT say, "As many many as come to the Son will be given by the Father to the Son" but that is exactly what you are trying to make it say. Neither does John 17:2 says "as many as come to the Son are given eternal life." God in both texts are dealing with the PRIMARY CAUSE for ALL those who come to the Son in faith. The PRIMARY CAUSE is that they are given to the Son for that purpose. Giving precedes coming. ETERNAL SECURITY or NONE LOST is explicitly grounded upon the Father GIVING not them coming:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Verse 40 is the CONSEQUENCE of being given by the Father to the Son. That is WHY they come to the Son in faith and since none given shall be lost that is why they have ETERNAL LIFE.

The text you conveniently leave out in John 6:40 is the one that says Christ is speaking of one who actually believes being lost. While that person believes he cannot be lost.

"Everyone who beholds the Son AND BELIEVES" and "and who at one time Believed".

In the parable of the sower Christ points to ground where the seed "springs to LIFE" and later dies.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Is this the best you can do? If it is, then you have sealed your own casket in regard to this text. Beleiving is inclusive of
coming to Christ. Notice that verse 40 follows as consequential to verses 37-39 not merely in chronological order of the texts but in chronological order in a cause and effect relationship. None believe who do not come to the Son. If you don't come to the Son you don't believe in the Son. You may attempt to argue that not all who come beleive but you cannot argue that ANY which the Father give to the Son fail to believe/come to the Son and NOT ONE of them will be lost.

Get the cause and effect order. Being given by the Father PRECEDES coming to the Son ("shall" v. 37). Not a single one given fails to come to the son in faith and not a single one given that comes in faith fails to be saved. That is precisely why both John 6:39 and John 6:40 end the same way with a guaranteed salvation resurrection because they are talking about the same person who was FIRST given by the Father in order to come believing to the Son:

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


This final phrase in verse 39 and 40 means ultimate salvation because it is first used in verse 39 which is immediately preceded with the guarantee of final salvaition "SHALL LOSE NOTHING." This is what it means in verse 40 as well becuase the very wording of verse 40 states that as well. Thus, this is exactly what it means in verse 44 the third time it is used or the "him" drawn is the "him" raised to eternal salvation.

Furthermore, this text does NOT say, "As many many as come to the Son will be given by the Father to the Son" but that is exactly what you are trying to make it say. Neither does John 17:2 says "as many as come to the Son are given eternal life." God in both texts are dealing with the PRIMARY CAUSE for ALL those who come to the Son in faith. The PRIMARY CAUSE is that they are given to the Son for that purpose. Giving precedes coming. ETERNAL SECURITY or NONE LOST is explicitly grounded upon the Father GIVING not them coming:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Verse 40 is the CONSEQUENCE of being given by the Father to the Son. That is WHY they come to the Son in faith and since none given shall be lost that is why they have ETERNAL LIFE.

There are no loopholes in this text. ALL given by the Father come. NOT ONE GIVEN fails to come (v. 37). NOT ONE GIVEN shall be lost (v. 39). Therefore NOT ONE GIVEN fails to believe in Christ (v. 40). Verse 40 descibes those given by the Father because the last phrase of verse 40 is first given to describe NONE LOST who are the "ALL" which are given by the Father to the son. The "him" of verse 39 is the individual "given" by the Father in verses 37,39 that shall not be lost. This is the same "him" of verse 40. Therefore the one that "seeth the Son, and believeth on him" is the one given by the Father that comes to the Son and not one of all those given fails to believe/come to the Son.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 5:24 is an equally explicit text dealing with the issue of eternal security of everyone beleiving in Christ. Again, believing in Christ is defined by John 6:37-39 to be the consequence of being given and ALL those given come believing in Christ and NONE will be lost.

Therefore NONE "shall come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life" (Jn. 5:24) because ALL who come in faith, come BECAUSE they have been given to Christ and "OF ALL" the Father given NONE SHALL BE LOST.

This text is designed by Christ to deal with the very question concerning ultimate salvation "OF ALL" the Father gives in order for them to come to Christ. He clearly and explicitly denies that even one "of all" the Father gives will be lost. However, your whole soteriological system repudiates what Christ says here making Christ a liar. However, as Paul says, "let God be true and every man a liar."

One basic rule in hermeneutics is that passages that deal specifically with a question in clear and unambiguous terms take priority over and are to be used to interpret ambiguous passages or passages that require inferences. All the passages you rely upon are ambiguous or require inferences in direct contradiction to Christ's explicit words

 

[billwald]

David was a man "after God's own heart." Job was righteous.

 

[Dr. Walter]

David was a man "after God's own heart." Job was righteous.

The lost man is not righteous before God as before God "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ON." They have no righteous nature. They have no righteous spirit indwellling them. At their very best state they are all "workers of iniquity" before God. They have no righteous legal position before the law. The only righteousness they have is relative and in the sight of men.

David and Job were righteous before God because they were "in Christ" by elective purpose before the world began (Eph. 1:4) and were considered already glorified or perfected (Rom. 8:28-31). By faith in Christ they were legally and positionally righteous before God as was Abraham (Rom. 4:5-8). They were righteous in regard to their inward new man or regenerative nature which is "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) in true righteousness and holiness (Eph. 4:24). In their lives they had a mixture of righteous and unrighteous deeds but those regarded righteous by God were because they were products of that inward righteous nature energized by the Spirit of God made acceptable to God by the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

The problem is that we have Paul speaking of a future justification as well as a present justification:

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

I suggest that we cannot be faithful to what Paul actually writes with this view that justification is a "one-time" event. We need to do the hard work of accomodating the fact that he writes of a present justification by faith and a future justification by good works.

True. Glossing over the details does not make a compelling argument and so Romans 2 will simply have to be accepted as "truth".

As I have argued in other threads, I think we can make this all work together by accounting for the "Spirit" teaching (e.g. in Romans 8). It is indeed true that we are jusfified by faith in the present precisely because faith results in the gift of the Spirit which transforms the believer into the kind of person who will indeed pass the future "good works" judgement described in Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5 (and other places).

Agreed. Romans 2:13-16 and 2Cor 5:10 (And Rev 14:7 and Dan 7:9-10,22) cannot simply be "ignored" as the solution.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Walter
Your interpretations contradict the explicit denial of Christ in John 6:37-39. He says he shall lose "NOTHING" "OF ALL" that were given him by the Father and you simply call Him a liar and interpret scripture to call Him a liar.

The text you conveniently leave out in John 6:40 is the one that says Christ is speaking of one who actually believes being lost. While that person believes he cannot be lost.

"Everyone who beholds the Son AND BELIEVES" NOT "and who at one time Believed".

Thus John 6:35-40 provides no basis at all to support the false idea that "he who no longer believes" is saved "anyway".

In the parable of the sower Christ points to ground where the seed "springs to LIFE" and later dies.

Is this the best you can do? If it is, then you have sealed your own casket

Again - pulpit pounding is not a compelling way to answer the point from the text.

Beleiving is inclusive of coming to Christ. Notice that verse 40 follows as consequential to verses 37-39 not merely in chronological order of the texts but in chronological order in a cause and effect relationship.

There is nothing in the text about "being saved and then believing".

Christ in John 3 gives the sequence for the Holy Spirit drawing and then mankind responding - (as we also see in Romans 10:9-10 does give the sequence for salvation explicitly A results in B -- "With the heart man believes RESULTING in righteousness and with the nouth he confesses RESULTING in salvation").

John 6
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe

1. Obviously Jesus is not arguing that God is at fault for failing to cause them to "believe".

John 6
37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''

2. same model again - "you have seen me - so believe" for the model is "everyone who beholds the Son and believes.. Will have eternal life" -


No emphasis is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I pith will be forced to believe". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

3. Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.

But he does not say “all that are drawn WILL choose to come” nor does He say “All that are drawn WILL come and WILL believe”, nor does the text says “God will only draw SOME”. (Yet this is exactly the distinctive teaching of Calvinism).

The Drawing of God is required before someone "can come" to Christ.

John 12:32 God says that He "draws ALL unto Him".

But in true arminian fashion "He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN received Him not" John 1 is the opening context for God taking action - and man choosing to reject it.

Furthermore, this text does NOT say, "As many many as come to the Son will be given by the Father to the Son" but that is exactly what you are trying to make it say. Neither does John 17:2 says "as many as come to the Son are given eternal life."

The text says that no one CAN come to Christ without first being drawn by God.

John 12:32 "I will Draw ALL"

But it is not "ALL" that choose to accept eternal life -- as it turns out.


Thus vs 40 is correct to emphasize the inconvenient detail "he who BELIEVES" is saved. Not "he who no longer believes is saved".

The point is easy to see.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You have stated the OSAS-filtered view of justification well and you have exposed its weakness.

Matt 18 - the fully forgiven - experiences "forgiveness revoked" and is turned over to the torturers.

In Ezek 18 - the righteous dies the second death for failing to persevere.

In John 15 the branches IN Christ are removed from Christ and cast into the fire - destroyed - reduced to ashes.

in 1Cor 9 - Paul says "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself am disqualified".

In Romans 11 those who STAND by faith - are warned to persevere for "IF God did not spare them - neither will He spare you".

The problems with the OSAS-filtered view are myriad.



In God's Free WILL system that requires that the saints "choose" to persevere rather than "growing weary and losing heart" Heb 12:1-4.




Compare this to THE circular argument masterpiece of all time!!

It argues that when a LOST person fails to CONTINUE being saved - he proves he was never saved - because he failed to keep ON being saved.

It is the worst, most tortured logic I have ever run across. YEt THAT is the degree of bible-bending that is required by the OSAS argument when texts like Gal 5:4 "FALLen from Grace..SEVERED from Christ", Romans 11 "you stand only by your FAITH ... if He did not spare them neither will He spare you" and Heb 6 come up.

I can't believe anybody takes it seriously.

Were we not supposed to notice these problems for OSAS?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is nothing in the text about "being saved and then believing".

So you could not deal with what I said honestly, so you twisted my words in order to make me say the very opposite of what I said.

I never said anyone was first saved and then believed. I said, they were first given by the Father before they came to believe in Christ and that is exactly what the text says even if you don't like it (Jn. 6:37-39). Being "given" is not being saved but it is the prerequisite for coming to saving faith in Christ. Only those given by the Father come to Christ and believe unto "eternal life":

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. - Jn. 17:2

Jesus says that he has power over "ALL" flesh. However, out of "ALL FLESH" how many does He give eternal life unto??? Come on, Bob, be honest with this text. Jesus uses the restrictive words "as many as" which is further restricted to ONLY THOSE "thou hast given him." Again, being given is not being saved. Being given is not eternal life. And it is obviously stated that the Father does not give "ALL FLESH" to Christ. Only "as many as" are given by the Fahter are given eternal life by the Son. Therefore, Jesus makes it clear that being given is the necessary prerequisite for obtaining eternal life and therefore is the cause whereas receiving eternal life is the effect.

In John 6:37 the language demands that ALL those given by the Father necessarily come - NOT ONE GIVEN FAILS TO COME. This is talking only about those human beings Jesus described in John 17:2 or the "as many as" the Father gave to the Son out of "ALL FLESH." None fail to come.

In John 6:39 the very same ones are being described or those who do not fail to come to Christ in verse 37. Jesus is only speaking of those given to him by the Father in verse 37 or "as many as" were given to him by the Father in John 17:2. Only "as many as" were given out of "ALL FLESH" to him by the Father does he give eternal life unto and that is why verse 39 confirms this by saying "OF ALL" that were given unto him by the Father "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." This is confirmed again in verse 39 by the last phrase "BUT should raise it up again at the last day."

This is the first use of this phrase by Christ in this chapter"but should raise it up again at the last day" and it is given as explanatory of the preceding absolute "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." Therefore, by contextual application and definition it means the same thing as "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

Further proof that verse 40 speaks of the very same persons in verse 39 is that Jesus repeats the very same phrase that concludes verse 39 to conclude verse 40.

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

All verse 40 does is explain what it means to come to Christ as described in verses 37,39. However, the phrase "raise it up at the last day" is twice contextually defined to mean "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" or "ETERNAL LIFE" being guaranteed by Christ.

Therefore, when Jesus attaches this same phrase to verse 44 it is a guarantee that the "him" drawn by Christ is the "him" I SHALL LOSE NOTHING.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In John 12:32 it is "all men" without distinction not all without exception as proven by the immediate context as John 12:32 is spoken by Christ to justifiy gentiles wanting to see him:

20 ¶ And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27 ¶ Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Therefore out of "ALL FLESH" in John 17:2 those designated "AS MANY AS" were given to Christ by the Father to give eternal life unto were NOT ALL JEWS.

Therefore "ALL" those given by the Father who will come to Christ in John 6:37 are not restricted to merely Jews.

Therefore "OF ALL" that were given by the Father in John 6:39 that Christ promised "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" is not restricted to merely Jews.

Therefore, the "everyone" in John 6:40 receiving eternal ife are the same ones in John 17:2 that the son gives "eternal life" unto and that is restricted to "as many as the Father giveth me" out of "ALL FLESH" and therefore the same ones described in John 6:37-39.

Bob, I will tell you what you are going to do with the above contextual based evidence before you do it. You are not going to deal with the text exegetically as I have done above because you know you cannot do it or you are finished. Instead, you will go outside this context, find scriptures, jerk them out of their context and place your own interpretative veiw on them and then pit them against Christ's explicit denial "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" and make a liar out of Christ - that is what you are going to do because that is what your system of interpretation requires you to do. You will try to convince the readers that the words "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" does not mean "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" but rather means "I SHALL LOSE SOME" and every text you give will be for that purpose to make "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" to mean "I SHALL LOSE SOME."

When you a persons theology forces them to make Christ a liar, it is self-evident who the real liar is. "OF ALL that the Father giveth me I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" means "OF ALL" the father gave him "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

 

[billwald]

Agree with the statements below. The Holy Spirit can regenerate ANYONE "in" Christ Jesus. The list might be much larger than we think.


>The lost man is not righteous before God as before God "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ON." They have no righteous nature. They have no righteous spirit indwellling them. At their very best state they are all "workers of iniquity" before God. They have no righteous legal position before the law. The only righteousness they have is relative and in the sight of men.

>David and Job were righteous before God because they were "in Christ" by elective purpose before the world began (Eph. 1:4) and were considered already glorified or perfected (Rom. 8:28-31). By faith in Christ they were legally and positionally righteous before God as was Abraham (Rom. 4:5-8). They were righteous in regard to their inward new man or regenerative nature which is "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) in true righteousness and holiness (Eph. 4:24). In their lives they had a mixture of righteous and unrighteous deeds but those regarded righteous by God were because they were products of that inward righteous nature energized by the Spirit of God made acceptable to God by the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You apparently didn't read my statement you give as the second quotation or you did not understand it. I would ask you to read it slowly and then tell me what you think I am saying and apply it to your own question about "in" Jesus Christ.

Agree with the statements below. The Holy Spirit can regenerate ANYONE "in" Christ Jesus. The list might be much larger than we think.


>The lost man is not righteous before God as before God "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ON." They have no righteous nature. They have no righteous spirit indwellling them. At their very best state they are all "workers of iniquity" before God. They have no righteous legal position before the law. The only righteousness they have is relative and in the sight of men.

>David and Job were righteous before God because they were "in Christ" by elective purpose before the world began (Eph. 1:4) and were considered already glorified or perfected (Rom. 8:28-31). By faith in Christ they were legally and positionally righteous before God as was Abraham (Rom. 4:5-8). They were righteous in regard to their inward new man or regenerative nature which is "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) in true righteousness and holiness (Eph. 4:24). In their lives they had a mixture of righteous and unrighteous deeds but those regarded righteous by God were because they were products of that inward righteous nature energized by the Spirit of God made acceptable to God by the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

John 6
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe

1. Obviously Jesus is not arguing that God is at fault for failing to cause them to "believe".

John 6
37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''

2. same model again - "you have seen me - so believe" for the model is "everyone who beholds the Son and believes.. Will have eternal life" -

No emphasis is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I pith will be forced to believe". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

3. Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.

I said, they were first given by the Father before they came to believe in Christ and that is exactly what the text says even if you don't like it (Jn. 6:37-39). Being "given" is not being saved but it is the prerequisite for coming to saving faith in Christ.

"God so Loved the World that He gave..." John 3:16

"God is not willing for any to perish" 2Peter 3

"God draws ALL men" unto him - John 12:32.

"Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2.

"He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1.

"The Spirit of truth convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12.

I along with many other Arminians have always agreed that God is the first cause.

Jesus says that he has power over "ALL" flesh. However, out of "ALL FLESH" how many does He give eternal life unto??? Come on, Bob, be honest with this text. Jesus uses the restrictive words "as many as" which is further restricted to ONLY THOSE "thou hast given him."

At no point have I denied that God knows the end from the beginning.

However - Christ is clear that those who "believe" are saved. At no point does Christ make the flawed OSAS argument "Those who used to believe will be saved".

In John 6:39 the very same ones are being described or those who do not fail to come to Christ in verse 37. Jesus is only speaking of those given to him by the Father in verse 37 or "as many as" were given to him by the Father in John 17:2. Only "as many as" were given out of "ALL FLESH" to him by the Father does he give eternal life unto and that is why verse 39 confirms this by saying "OF ALL" that were given unto him by the Father "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." This is confirmed again in verse 39 by the last phrase "BUT should raise it up again at the last day."

1. You are only willing to view this backwards. Both Arminians and Calvinists agree that in the end all are not saved and that God knows the end from the beginning. That does not address the point of difference.

2. Where we differ is that OSAS goes "beyond the text" to argue that those that are given (in that forknowledge context of the statement) includes those who at the end DO NOT BELIEVE. Which is a horrible wrench of the text.

This is the first use of this phrase by Christ in this chapter"but should raise it up again at the last day" and it is given as explanatory of the preceding absolute "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." Therefore, by contextual application and definition it means the same thing as "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

Further proof that verse 40 speaks of the very same persons in verse 39 is that Jesus repeats the very same phrase that concludes verse 39 to conclude verse 40.

Which only dooms the OSAS position for anyone claiming that someone is saved who "used to believe but no longer believes" because in vs 40 Christ insists that they DO believe.

He also argues that the salvation that he offers is based on the future resurrection.

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In John 12:32 it is "all men" without distinction not all without exception

wrong - it is "all men without qualification" there is no qualifier - it is ALL.

as proven by the immediate context as John 12:32 is spoken by Christ to justifiy gentiles wanting to see him:

20 ¶ And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27 ¶ Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The statements are global - and without restriction.

Those who choose to serve Christ are accepted - without restriction.

All are drawn - without qualification.

Therefore "ALL" those given by the Father who will come to Christ in John 6:37 are not restricted to merely Jews.

All can agree that an "unqualified ALL" does not restrict itself to "jews".

Neither does "all Jews plus one gentile".

Your argument fails in the inconvenient details of the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I will tell you what you are going to do with the above contextual based evidence before you do it. You are not going to deal with the text exegetically as I have done above because you know you cannot do it or you are finished. Instead, you will go outside this context, find scriptures, jerk them out of their context and place your own interpretative veiw on them and then pit them against Christ's explicit denial "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" and make a liar...

Good smoke and mirror suggestion - but not what happened.

Instead I showed in context - using your own texts - that the OSAS position does not stand the test of scripture.

Far from negating the Words of Christ - my position relies on accepting all of them.

an "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" but rather means "I SHALL LOSE SOME" and every text you give will be for that purpose to make "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" to mean "I SHALL LOSE SOME."

You assume too much in your defense. The post shows that I never argue that God does not know who will be saved. Thus I can focus on an expanded view of John 6 - IN John 6 as well as John 12 IN John 12 to show the OSAS flaw.

I keep pointing out the OSAS flaw that argues that regardless of what Christ said in John 6:40 "Those who DO NOT believe" are also saved.

It is simply not in the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Certainly it is true that Paul refers to future justification in Romans 2:11-6 and in past justification in Romans 5:1-2.

Past justification changes our salvation status from lost to saved.

Future justification is based on the "by their fruits you shall know them" rule of Christ in Matt 7. It reveals the state of the person - it does not change it.

Thus a saved saint that "perseveres in doing good" Rom 2:7 is approved in that future justification.

Thus they will be included in the succeeding examples of Romans 2:4-19.

But the righteous that falls away (as discussed in Ezek 18, Gal 5:4, Heb 3, Romans 11, John 15:1-6 ...) will be "revealed" to be one who is no longer born-again, no longer walking in the Spirit.

Thus they will be included in the failing examples of Romans 2:4-29.

Hence the bible argument for Perseverance of the Saints -

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

 

[BobRyan]

And then those last few texts that needed a bit more room...


2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You did exactly as I predicted. You read in "foreknowlege" into this text as the cause when Christ says that being given by the Father is the cause for coming to faith in Christ. Then, you have the audacity to claim "foreknowlege" is the context when it is not even mentioned.

You reversed all stated causes to be effects. You read into the absolute condition "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" the false idea that simply because somone makes a profession that means they are truly saved and thus Christ is promising salvation to those who eventually reject him. That is such an idiotic eisgetical straw man.

In other words, you gave an interpretation of this text that demands Jesus lied when he said, "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - that is the bottom line of all your twisted thinking and wrangling of God's Word.

Jesus does not say that the father gave me all those HE KNEW WOULD COME ANYWAY. He gives the cause for coming as being given. He gives the cause for obtaining eternal life from the Son as being given (Jn. 17:2).

John 6
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe

1. Obviously Jesus is not arguing that God is at fault for failing to cause them to "believe".

John 6
37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''

2. same model again - "you have seen me - so believe" for the model is "everyone who beholds the Son and believes.. Will have eternal life" -

No emphasis is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I pith will be forced to believe". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

3. Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.



"God so Loved the World that He gave..." John 3:16

"God is not willing for any to perish" 2Peter 3

"God draws ALL men" unto him - John 12:32.

"Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2.

"He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1.

"The Spirit of truth convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12.

I along with many other Arminians have always agreed that God is the first cause.



At no point have I denied that God knows the end from the beginning.

However - Christ is clear that those who "believe" are saved. At no point does Christ make the flawed OSAS argument "Those who used to believe will be saved".




1. You are only willing to view this backwards. Both Arminians and Calvinists agree that in the end all are not saved and that God knows the end from the beginning. That does not address the point of difference.

2. Where we differ is that OSAS goes "beyond the text" to argue that those that are given (in that forknowledge context of the statement) includes those who at the end DO NOT BELIEVE. Which is a horrible wrench of the text.



Which only dooms the OSAS position for anyone claiming that someone is saved who "used to believe but no longer believes" because in vs 40 Christ insists that they DO believe.

He also argues that the salvation that he offers is based on the future resurrection.

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.




wrong - it is "all men without qualification" there is no qualifier - it is ALL.




The statements are global - and without restriction.

Those who choose to serve Christ are accepted - without restriction.

All are drawn - without qualification.



All can agree that an "unqualified ALL" does not restrict itself to "jews".

Neither does "all Jews plus one gentile".

Your argument fails in the inconvenient details of the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You did exactly as I predicted. You read in "foreknowlege" into this text as the cause when Christ says that being given by the Father is the cause for coming to faith in Christ. Then, you have the audacity to claim "foreknowlege" is the context when it is not even mentioned.

You reversed all stated causes to be effects. You read into the absolute condition "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" the false idea that simply because somone makes a profession that means they are truly saved and thus Christ is promising salvation to those who eventually reject him. That is such an idiotic eisgetical straw man.

In other words, you gave an interpretation of this text that demands Jesus lied when he said, "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - that is the bottom line of all your twisted ...

Wrong again.

I stated clearly that God knows the end from the beginning - and He is in a position to argue for those who will in fact persevere firm until the end.

But He is also in a position to see all the cases - including those who are after being saved "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" - he sees the seed sown on rocky ground and thorny ground - seed that springs to life but then later dies.

Still in the end - He also sees that which yields 10 and 100 fold.

You argue that simply because God sees the good ending - he must also allow unblievers into heaven as unbelievers - so as to protect the doctrine of OSAS.

Not as compelling an argument as you might first have thought.

Jesus does not say that the father gave me all those HE KNEW WOULD COME ANYWAY.

The Arminian argument is never "without God - certain among the lost would choose eternal life and lead righteous lives anyway".

But you are free to imagine it if you think that is what OSAS needs.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. - Jn. 17:2


37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So the Father never gave anyone else to the Son to give eternal life unto but the Foreknown and therefore those that Christ promised "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING - Jn. 17:2

So the Father never gave anyone to come to the Son but "ALL" those He foreknew would come to the Son and therefore "ALL" those whom the Son promised "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - Jn. 6:37

So the Father never gave anyone to come to the Son that would lose salvation but "ALL" those given by the Father to come to the Son "OF ALL" which Christ promised "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - Jn. 6:37,39?

So EVERYONE believing in Christ in John 6:40 must be "ALL" those in John 6:39 that the Father FOREKNEW as the very same promise that ends verse 39 also ends verse 40 - the promise that further defined the phase in John 6:39 "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING but should raise it up again at the last day"?

Likewise, the very same phrase that ends John 6:39-40 also ends John 6:44 and therefore the "him" of John 6:44 must also be only those whom the Father FOREKNEW would be saved and that Christ promised 'I SHALL LOSE NOTHING"?

So who are the foreknown? They are "ALL" the father gives to the Son and ALL of them come to Christ and none are lost - vv. 37-39.

They are WHOSOVER seeth and believeth in the Son as it is that "him" which is given the same promise as in verse 39.

They are the "him" that the Father draws to the Son as this same "him" is given the same promise as in verse 39.

Now, who are those who are not drawn to the Son by the Father but come in false profession? They are those in John 6:36 and in John 6:64-65

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

Jesus told those in John 6:36 that they had seen him and did not believe in him but says ALL that the Father gives him "shall come to me" and therefore they were not of that "ALL" as they did not come/beleive in him.

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus specifically addresses those among the disciples who do not beleive in him and the one among them who would betray him. It gives the reason for their unbelief in verse 65 "THEREFORE said I unto YOU (unbeleivers and traitor), that no man can COME TO ME, except it were GIVEN UNTO HIM of my Father"

Simple, clear and to the point. The Foreknown are His elect and the Father does not give any but the Elect to the Son for eternal life (Jn. 17:2) and ALL the elect given the Son "shall come" and ALL of the elect given to the Son I WILL LOSE NOTHING (Jn. 6:37-39) because ALL of the elect see and believe in the Son and the "him" that seeth and beleieveth is "raised" (v. 40) just as the "him" that is drawn by the Father is the "him" that is raised (v. 44).

Wrong again.

I stated clearly that God knows the end from the beginning - and He is in a position to argue for those who will in fact persevere firm until the end.

But He is also in a position to see all the cases - including those who are after being saved "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" - he sees the seed sown on rocky ground and thorny ground - seed that springs to life but then later dies.

Still in the end - He also sees that which yields 10 and 100 fold.

You argue that simply because God sees the good ending - he must also allow unblievers into heaven as unbelievers - so as to protect the doctrine of OSAS.

Not as compelling an argument as you might first have thought.




The Arminian argument is never "without God - certain among the lost would choose eternal life and lead righteous lives anyway".

But you are free to imagine it if you think that is what OSAS needs.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John 6
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


2. the same model again - "you have seen me - so believe" for the model is "everyone who beholds the Son and believes.. Will have eternal life" – This is not a promise to “whosoever believeth not on me – though they used to believe at one time” as some OSAS revisionism imagines.

This text takes into context the foreknowledge of God “all that He has given Me – I should lose nothing” the reference is to the future results and the fact that God knows them.


No emphasis is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I pith will be forced to believe". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

3. Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.

Foreknown and therefore those that Christ promised "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING - Jn. 17:2

God's foreknowledge includes what He "foreknows" as it turns out.

Thus 1Peter 1:1-2 those are "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God" - who foreknows the choices of all.

It is hard for your argument to continually ignore this point - yet you are trying valiantly not to see it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

What you fail to see is that "foreknowledge" is subordinate to God's "purpose" in Romans 8:28-29. God's purpose precedes foreknowledge as what God foreknows is what He has purposed in regard to "them." It is like a contracter who builds a house. He foreknows where every room, every light fixture will be in the house he is going to build because he has already BLUE PRINTED THE PLANS. In Romans 8:28-31 foreknowledge, predestinated, called, justified, and glorified are all those aspects being worked out "according to His purpose" and that is why NONE who are foreknown, called, justified fail to be glorified.

Election is according to God's foreknowledge of His eternal purpose spelled out in Romans 8:28-31 and in Epheians 1:4-14 where he "works ALL THINGS according to His will" (Eph. 1:11).

Sorry, but your argument as usual is nothing but a perversion of another scripture and evidently when it is placed back into the overall context of related scriptures.

John 6
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


2. the same model again - "you have seen me - so believe" for the model is "everyone who beholds the Son and believes.. Will have eternal life" – This is not a promise to “whosoever believeth not on me – though they used to believe at one time” as some OSAS revisionism imagines.

This text takes into context the foreknowledge of God “all that He has given Me – I should lose nothing” the reference is to the future results and the fact that God knows them.


No emphasis is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I pith will be forced to believe". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

3. Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.



God's foreknowledge includes what He "foreknows" as it turns out.

Thus 1Peter 1:1-2 those are "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God" - who foreknows the choices of all.

It is hard for your argument to continually ignore this point - yet you are trying valiantly not to see it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What you fail to see is that "foreknowledge" is subordinate to God's "purpose" in Romans 8:28-29. God's purpose precedes foreknowledge as what God foreknows is what He has purposed in regard to "them." It is like a contracter who builds a house. He foreknows where every room, every light fixture will be in the house he is going to build because he has already BLUE PRINTED THE PLANS. In Romans 8:28-31 foreknowledge, predestinated, called, justified, and glorified are all those aspects being worked out

Calvinism works best with a house that makes no choices. But God is the God of "intelligent life" and has given free will - so that even Lucifer could choose evil if he really wanted to.

The argument that God arbitrarily selected the "FEW" of Matt 7 without foreknowledge is not only a self-conflicted argument - it flatly contradicts Peter's statement on that point.

God's purpose to create a free will universe was of His own choosing.

God's purpose to "So Love the World" that he would "send His son to be the Savior of the World" was of His own choosing.

But when you get to the part about "choosing future person A vs choosing future person B" then you must have foreknowledge of both.

Obviously.

Therfore Paul flatly rejects the arbitrary selection model when in Romans 2 Paul insists that is not selecting the few and ignoring the many of Matt 7.

In the example of Christ with the FEW vs the MANY - Christ never claims "I simply failed to choose the many". The Calvinist argument dies at that point.

in Christ,

Bob