Defining "the law" as used in New Testament

[Dr. Walter]

What justifies a lost person Bob??? You admit it is not the works of a lost person then whose works justifiy him? If you admit it is the Christ provision (His life and death) that is the object of faith in justification by faith then you admit that it is the works of Christ that justify him. Bob, in you imaginary future justification, what justifies the justified man? Did you get that Bob? I asked what JUSTIFIES the JUSTIFIED man? YOU HAVE DOUBLE JUSTIFICATION - DOUBLE PAYMENT - because you have Christ justifying the sinner at the beginning and then you have the saint justifying himself by his own works - that is TWO JUSTIFICATIONS thus DOUBLE JUSTIFICATIONS in the sight of God.

What is really rediculous about your position is that the works of Christ are inferior to the believers own works as Christ works cannot fully justify him or deliver him from eternal wrath or obtain eternal heaven but that depends upon the believers own works can and must as final destination is not determined by Christ but by the believers own works.

You can choose whatever words you like but your system of interpretation requires DOUBLE JUSTIFICATION before God and your system makes Christ's works INFERIOR to the saints works as the former provides no actual deliverance or salvation whereas the latter actually obtains heaven and delieverance from hell. That is exactly the characteristics of what Paul calls "another gospel" - it is a doctrine that devaluates the works of Christ making them ultimately inferior to man's good works.

In your system Christ's works (provision) do not obtain anything for the believer except POTENTIAL salvation whereas the saints works obtain ACTUAL salvation. You may argue that without the POTENTIAL there could be no ACTUAL but the bottom line is DOUBLE PAYMENT OF WORKS and Christ's works INFERIOR as POTENTIAL is always inferior to ACTUAL.

If you are a thinking man, this is absolute proof your system is messed up and originates with demons (I Tim. 4:1) as it devalues Christ making his works only POTENTIAL while making man's works ACTUAL and EFFECTUAL in obtaing salvation.

The argument is what is the life of Christ "needed" for? You want God to charge us DOUBLE. Christ's life is needed to meet the demands of God's law so as to FULFILL them in our behalf - justification. However, your position is that in addition to Christ fulfilling them in OUR BEHALF we must also fulfill them for the VERY SAME REASON - justification. Hence DOUBLE PAYMENT - DOUBLE FULFILLMENT of the law - DOUBLE JUDGEMENT (on Christ "for us" and then on our works).

 

[BobRyan]

What justifies a lost person Bob??? You admit it is not the works of a lost person then whose works justifiy him?

The lost person comes to Christ and is covered by His blood for forgiveness of sins, and is covered by Christ's righteous life -- not having a righteousness of his own. He is born-again. He is then at that point "the good tree".

If you admit it is the Christ provision (His life and death) that is the object of faith in justification by faith then you admit that it is the works of Christ that justify him.

err... umm.. yes!

That is why I keep saying that it does not help your argument to circle back to the case of the lost -- when speaking about the Bible doctrine on perseverance of the saints. "Not laying again the foundation" (Heb 6:1) and all.

Bob, in you imaginary future justification, what justifies the justified man?

In the Rom 2:11-16 discussion of "Who WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge all men" (Paul's words not mine) - the basis is the works -- the fruits of those trees. It will reveal that the tree was in fact changed to a good tree at the end -- or at the end was found to have reverted back to a bad tree. The righteous who then chose a path that lead to being "severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace".

Did you get that Bob? I asked what JUSTIFIES the JUSTIFIED man? YOU HAVE DOUBLE JUSTIFICATION

Wrong. The Bible teaches justification past that changes the state of the soul from lost to saved (Rom 5:1).

Then the Bible has justification future Rom 2:11-16 that "reveals" the state of the one changed. Hint - looking at a tree does not change the tree.

- DOUBLE PAYMENT

Total nonsense.

- because you have Christ justifying the sinner at the beginning and then you have the saint justifying himself by his own works

No. The Bible has Christs' life and death justifying and forgiving the lost - AND producing the "new Creation" -- the New Covenant Gospel condition of the Law of God written on the heart. Then we have Christ demonstrating that the Gospel works in the context of the Daniel 7:9,10,22 courtroom -- before "myriads and myriads" when "the books are opened and the court sits" and then "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

The very thing you claim cannot happen.

Peter says "Judgment begins with the house of God"

Paul says "WE MUST ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ"

And in Romans 2 Paul insists that even the gentile Christians will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and "WILL BE JUSTIFIED" on the bases of deeds as seen in Romans 2:4-16

What is really rediculous about your position is that the works of Christ are inferior to the believers own works as Christ works cannot fully justify him

Wrong again.

The simple point that you pretend not to understand is - "looking at the tree does not change the tree".

This could not be any simpler and it comes right out of the text itself.

In your system Christ's works (provision) do not obtain anything for the believer except POTENTIAL salvation

Pretending not to get this simple point is not helping your case. You are free to differ with my argument - but you need to at least be able to state what it is accurately.

Christ makes the New Tree - then Christ shows that HIS OWN rule "by their fruits you shall know them" actually works. Knowing the tree does not CHANGE a bad tree into a good tree.

The act of looking at the tree "results" does not change the trees. You want to "imagine" that by "looking at the trees" the good tree is reverted to being lost again and then tried to produce good fruit to convince the observers that it was good.

The point is far more direct than you want to admit.

Perhaps you just need some time with the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob,the good tree produces the good fruit but the good fruit don't produce the good tree - God produces the good tree. Good works don't justify or make a person righteous before God. God makes them righteous and that is why they can produce good fruit. A good tree don't produce good fruit IN ORDER TO BE a good tree but BECAUSE IT ALREADY IS a good tree.

You have good works being produced IN ORDER TO BE justified but good works only declare who already has been justified.

The lost person comes to Christ and is covered by His blood for forgiveness of sins, and is covered by Christ's righteous life -- not having a righteousness of his own. He is born-again. He is then at that point "the good tree".



err... umm.. yes!

That is why I keep saying that it does not help your argument to circle back to the case of the lost -- when speaking about the Bible doctrine on perseverance of the saints. "Not laying again the foundation" (Heb 6:1) and all.



In the Rom 2:11-16 discussion of "Who WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge all men" (Paul's words not mine) - the basis is the works -- the fruits of those trees. It will reveal that the tree was in fact changed to a good tree at the end -- or at the end was found to have reverted back to a bad tree. The righteous who then chose a path that lead to being "severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace".



Wrong. The Bible teaches justification past that changes the state of the soul from lost to saved (Rom 5:1).

Then the Bible has justification future Rom 2:11-16 that "reveals" the state of the one changed. Hint - looking at a tree does not change the tree.



Total nonsense.



No. The Bible has Christs' life and death justifying and forgiving the lost - AND producing the "new Creation" -- the New Covenant Gospel condition of the Law of God written on the heart. Then we have Christ demonstrating that the Gospel works in the context of the Daniel 7:9,10,22 courtroom -- before "myriads and myriads" when "the books are opened and the court sits" and then "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

The very thing you claim cannot happen.

Peter says "Judgment begins with the house of God"

Paul says "WE MUST ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ"

And in Romans 2 Paul insists that even the gentile Christians will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and "WILL BE JUSTIFIED" on the bases of deeds as seen in Romans 2:4-16



Wrong again.

The simple point that you pretend not to understand is - "looking at the tree does not change the tree".

This could not be any simpler and it comes right out of the text itself.



Pretending not to get this simple point is not helping your case. You are free to differ with my argument - but you need to at least be able to state what it is accurately.

Christ makes the New Tree - then Christ shows that HIS OWN rule "by their fruits you shall know them" actually works. Knowing the tree does not CHANGE a bad tree into a good tree.

The act of looking at the tree "results" does not change the trees. You want to "imagine" that by "looking at the trees" the good tree is reverted to being lost again and then tried to produce good fruit to convince the observers that it was good.

The point is far more direct than you want to admit.

Perhaps you just need some time with the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,the good tree produces the good fruit but the good fruit don't produce the good tree

Ok - now see. that was not so hard. We can agree on things - and that is one.

- God produces the good tree.

Indeed. Not only at the start - but all along the way. "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it". Phil 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Nothing at all like "fail to persevere and will be justified anyway".

So also in chapter 2.

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Good works don't justify or make a person righteous before God.

Not if we are speaking about circling back to the context of the lost - the bad tree that needs to "be transformed" into the good tree.

However - not Laying again a foundation of repentance - we need to look at the doctrine of "perseverance of the saints" rather than "new birth of the lost"..

God makes them righteous and that is why they can produce good fruit.

This is again - where we can agree.

A good tree don't produce good fruit IN ORDER TO BE a good tree but BECAUSE IT ALREADY IS a good tree.

My point exactly.

You have good works being produced IN ORDER TO BE justified but good works only declare who already has been justified.

God is the one that calls that future judgment one of justification (Rom 2:11-16) - but it is one that is done in the Romans 2 and Daniel 7 context of an objective, verified judgment with books opened (by their fruits you shall know them Matt 7) and the courtroom of the "myriads and myriads" observing the results that then has "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 for "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ". 2Cor 5:10.

And this is then the sobering message of Rev 14:7 "Fear God and give Glory to Him for the hour of His judgment has come".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob, you state on one hand that God will finish what he begun for it is God that worketh in us both to WILL and to DO of His Good pleasure, then, you predict God will fail in the end to finish what he begun in some. Thus you make Christ a liar again when he says that "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" of "all" those given (Jn. 6:39) and ALL those given are the same ones who come in saving faith (Jn. 6:37).

You don't beleive in the perseverance of the saints. You believe in the perseverance of SOME saints due to their own good works, because God obviously failed to "WILL" and "DO" in other saints.

What you fail to believe in is that God has saved the human will and that is exactly what he is talking about in Philip. 2:13 the saving of the human will to do His glory.

You have the idea that the human will is simply unattached to the heart of the born again person. For example, you don't believe in the New Testament as defined by the Scripture when it comes to the new heart and the human will:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Now, the above is the Biblical doctrine of perseverance. From the human perspective and experience real partakers of this covenant DO CONTINUE all the way to the end because the "CAUSE" is God not them.

Ok - now see. that was not so hard. We can agree on things - and that is one.



Indeed. Not only at the start - but all along the way. "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it". Phil 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Nothing at all like "fail to persevere and will be justified anyway".

So also in chapter 2.

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



Not if we are speaking about circling back to the context of the lost - the bad tree that needs to "be transformed" into the good tree.

However - not Laying again a foundation of repentance - we need to look at the doctrine of "perseverance of the saints" rather than "new birth of the lost"..



This is again - where we can agree.



My point exactly.



God is the one that calls that future judgment one of justification (Rom 2:11-16) - but it is one that is done in the Romans 2 and Daniel 7 context of an objective, verified judgment with books opened (by their fruits you shall know them Matt 7) and the courtroom of the "myriads and myriads" observing the results that then has "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 for "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ". 2Cor 5:10.

And this is then the sobering message of Rev 14:7 "Fear God and give Glory to Him for the hour of His judgment has come".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you state on one hand that God will finish what he begun for it is God that worketh in us both to WILL and to DO of His Good pleasure, then, you predict God will fail

It is only Calvinism that attributes the failure of man in a free will system - to God.

The Arminian context never blames God for Adam's failure, or for Lucifer's failure, or for the failure of those in Gal 5:4 "Severed FROM Christ, fallen FROM grace".

If you try to plug those Bible texts I provided into a Calvinist model - they do not work. First you have to dump calvinism.

in the end to finish what he begun in some. Thus you make Christ a liar

Again - Cavlinism is the model that assumes that when man fails - it is God's fault.

The Arminian model views it more along the lines of Christ as we see in Matt 18 with the illustration of forgiveness revoked.

again when he says that "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" of "all" those given (Jn. 6:39) and ALL those given are the same ones who come in saving faith (Jn. 6:37).

John 6 is speaking strictly of "Those who BELIEVE" John 6:40 and says nothing about "Those who used to believe and then fell away - saved anyway".

And when Christ speaks to "Shall lose nothing" He is speaking explicitly about the future - about the conclusion at the end "SHALL lose nothing" speaks to the final result.

Arminians never claim that God does not know the end result.

You don't beleive in the perseverance of the saints.

I do believe in perseverance of the saints in the form that the Bible states it.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

No one but God can observe the heart. As men we judge a person by their fruit and sometimes we can be mistaken. You falsely assume that all who profess and then reject Christ were true believers when you have no basis for that assumption. However, that is the assumption you apply to every text that states salvation is absolute. That is the assumption you read into every text that challenges the professor to continue in the faith and not turn away.

That presumption is based upon nothing but the interpretations that are developed due to that assumption. However, the Scripture is very clear that not all professors are possessors and only the false professors actually turn against Christ (I Jn. 2:19; Jn. 8:29-44; Mt. 13 "tares"; etc.).

It is only Calvinism that attributes the failure of man in a free will system - to God.

The Arminian context never blames God for Adam's failure, or for Lucifer's failure, or for the failure of those in Gal 5:4 "Severed FROM Christ, fallen FROM grace".

If you try to plug those Bible texts I provided into a Calvinist model - they do not work. First you have to dump calvinism.



Again - Cavlinism is the model that assumes that when man fails - it is God's fault.

The Arminian model views it more along the lines of Christ as we see in Matt 18 with the illustration of forgiveness revoked.



John 6 is speaking strictly of "Those who BELIEVE" John 6:40 and says nothing about "Those who used to believe and then fell away - saved anyway".

And when Christ speaks to "Shall lose nothing" He is speaking explicitly about the future - about the conclusion at the end "SHALL lose nothing" speaks to the final result.

Arminians never claim that God does not know the end result.



I do believe in perseverance of the saints in the form that the Bible states it.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties and the New covenant is an agreement between the parties of the Triune God.

The New covenant is the committment by God to do those things listed in Ezekiel 36:26-27 or the "I will" of God and one of those I will's is that he will "cause" those to whom he gives a new heart and spirit to keep His commandments and walk in His will:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Are you saying that God will violate His covenant and will not "cause" those that He gives a new heart and spirit unto to "walk in my statutes" and "keep my judgments" and "do them"? Are you saying God will fail to keep his part of this agreement as stated? Isn't this exactly what Paul says he will do in Philippians 2:13? If God works within his children to "WILL" and to "DO" then how in the world can they be unwilling and when God is working in them WILLINGNESS and how can they fail to "DO" what they are willing to do? None of these these things in Ezekiel or Philippians 2:13 is conditioned upon the believer but rather are stated as the causes to ensure they are willing and will do what the covenant states.

You have to reverse the stated cause and effect relationships between the will of God and the will of believers in order to avoid eternal security of covenant children. You have to read into the covenant conditions where God depends upon the child of God to accomplish the stated committments by God that are not presented as conditioned upon those being saved.

It is only Calvinism that attributes the failure of man in a free will system - to God.

The Arminian context never blames God for Adam's failure, or for Lucifer's failure, or for the failure of those in Gal 5:4 "Severed FROM Christ, fallen FROM grace".

If you try to plug those Bible texts I provided into a Calvinist model - they do not work. First you have to dump calvinism.



Again - Cavlinism is the model that assumes that when man fails - it is God's fault.

The Arminian model views it more along the lines of Christ as we see in Matt 18 with the illustration of forgiveness revoked.



John 6 is speaking strictly of "Those who BELIEVE" John 6:40 and says nothing about "Those who used to believe and then fell away - saved anyway".

And when Christ speaks to "Shall lose nothing" He is speaking explicitly about the future - about the conclusion at the end "SHALL lose nothing" speaks to the final result.

Arminians never claim that God does not know the end result.



I do believe in perseverance of the saints in the form that the Bible states it.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

No one but God can observe the heart.

1. God is all knowing - and has known all events from eternity past - thus the Daniel 7:9-10 judgment is one where the courtroom is filled with "myriads and myriads" and the "books are opened" and then in Dan 7:22 "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" as the last event - just before the Dan 7:23-27 second coming.

You falsely assume that all who profess and then reject Christ were true believers

Wrong - you are taking the "either or" logical fallacy - I adopt the more correct "both-and" view which says that the lost consist BOTH of those never saved AND of those in Ezek 18 and Matt 18 where forgiveness is revoked and in Gal 5:4 where the saved are then "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace".

That presumption is based upon nothing but the interpretations that are developed due to that assumption.

Wrong again. The conclusion is based on a direct reading of Bible texts that OSAS is only too anxious to completely avoid.

You need a better hill to die on than the one that is forced to deny the direct reading of the Bible at almost every turn.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties and the New covenant is an agreement between the parties of the Triune God.

Let us "read" the inconvenient texts to test your idea "sola scriptura".

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

This is an agreement between God and man.

God is faithful - but God has also sovereignly chosen the free will model of "whosoever will" - therefore all the "warning" texts regarding perseverance are "real" and not fake, nor imaginary, nor pretend that OSAS promotion keeps imagining.

The New Covenant is the ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-11) of all time.


8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME[/b], FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

Paul has just shown the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic Gospel components

• Forgiveness of sin “I will remember their sins no more”
• Adoption by God – “I will be their God – they will be My people”
• The New Birth – the New Creation – with the Law of God written on the heart AND mind

Are you saying that God will violate His covenant and will not "cause" those that He gives a new heart and spirit unto to "walk in my statutes" and "keep my judgments" and "do them"?

God has provided the "whosoever will" system of free will and in that system He fulfills his promise -- but he does not "pith the brain of the frog" so that the frog follows like a robot - not able to make a choice after being saved.

Thus God provides the warning to the saved - warnings that OSAS has no room for at all. Warnings that OSAS must simply "explain away".

And when the warnings are admitted to - then the OSAS argument must charge God with failing

Are you saying God will fail to keep his part of this agreement as stated?

His part was never "I will take your free will away so that you cannot choose anything but what I make you choose".

Instead - His part included "warnings to the saved" and all those texts about "persevering firm until the end" are not "instructions to God telling God how to save people" they are "instructions to the saints".

A key point of failure for the OSAS argument.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

God makes the covenant with Israel and God secures the agreement of Israel by His part of the covenant "I will...cause you to walk in my statutes..."

He did not say "help" you but "cause" you. Do you know the difference? Not by your interpetation of this text do you know the difference.

To "cause" them to obey means that God is the primary cause of their obedience whereas their willingness is a secondary cause. The same is true in Philippians 2:12-13. They are to willingly obey (v. 12) but the primary cause for any willingness to obey and do is God not them (v. 13).

Only WHOSOEVER WILL believe in the gospel received eternal life but it is God that gives the willingness to come and believe in Christ - Jn. 6:37-40, Jn. 17:2. You reverse the stated cause and effect order in these texts and must to defend your errors.

You simply reject the cause and affect order given in the scriptures because it does not suit your man made theology.

Let us "read" the inconvenient texts to test your idea "sola scriptura".

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

This is an agreement between God and man.

God is faithful - but God has also sovereignly chosen the free will model of "whosoever will" - therefore all the "warning" texts regarding perseverance are "real" and not fake, nor imaginary, nor pretend that OSAS promotion keeps imagining.

The New Covenant is the ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-11) of all time.


8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME[/b], FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

Paul has just shown the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic Gospel components

• Forgiveness of sin “I will remember their sins no more”
• Adoption by God – “I will be their God – they will be My people”
• The New Birth – the New Creation – with the Law of God written on the heart AND mind

God has provided the "whosoever will" system of free will and in that system He fulfills his promise -- but he does not "pith the brain of the frog" so that the frog follows like a robot - not able to make a choice after being saved.

Thus God provides the warning to the saved - warnings that OSAS has no room for at all. Warnings that OSAS must simply "explain away".

And when the warnings are admitted to - then the OSAS argument must charge God with failing



His part was never "I will take your free will away so that you cannot choose anything but what I make you choose".

Instead - His part included "warnings to the saved" and all those texts about "persevering firm until the end" are not "instructions to God telling God how to save people" they are "instructions to the saints".

A key point of failure for the OSAS argument.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God makes the covenant with Israel and God secures the agreement of Israel by His part of the covenant "I will...cause you to walk in my statutes..."

He did not say "help" you but "cause" you. Do you know the difference? Not by your interpetation of this text do you know the difference.

To "cause" them to obey means that God is the primary cause of their obedience whereas their willingness is a secondary cause. The same is true in Philippians 2:12-13. They are to willingly obey (v. 12) but the primary cause for any willingness to obey and do is God not them (v. 13).

Only WHOSOEVER WILL believe in the gospel received eternal life but it is God that gives the willingness to come and believe in Christ - Jn. 6:37-40, Jn. 17:2. You reverse the stated cause and effect order in these texts and must to defend your errors.

On the contrary I repeatedly point to God's statement "I will draw ALL men unto Me" as the primary cause. John 12:32

I repeatedly point to John 16 "The Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and jugment".

I repeatedly point to John 1 "He is the light that coming into the World enlightens EVERY man" John 1:9

I repeatedly point to the Rev 3 fact "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in ".

I repeatedly point to God's First cause act in 1John 2:2" He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

I repeatedly point to God's first cause act in 1John 4:14 "the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"

Your problem is that you have bought into the flawed Calvinist tradition of "arbitrary selection" as if that was a "good thing" and so you are prone to ignore these "first cause texts" when I reference them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

I have dealt with John 6:44-45; 64-65 and 12:20-32 in an exegetical fashion and what is your response? Simply to repeat the verses and make a unsubstantiated declaration that I am wrong. Why should I waste my energy and time on a person who will not even take the time to give an exegetical response??? You have yet to respond to my detailed exegesis in regard to these verses. If my exegesis is wrong, please point it out with reasonable exegetical evidence to the contrary!

On the contrary I repeatedly point to God's statement "I will draw ALL men unto Me" as the primary cause. John 12:32

I repeatedly point to John 16 "The Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and jugment".

I repeatedly point to John 1 "He is the light that coming into the World enlightens EVERY man" John 1:9

I repeatedly point to the Rev 3 fact "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in ".

I repeatedly point to God's First cause act in 1John 2:2" He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

I repeatedly point to God's first cause act in 1John 4:14 "the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"

Your problem is that you have bought into the flawed Calvinist tradition of "arbitrary selection" as if that was a "good thing" and so you are prone to ignore these "first cause texts" when I reference them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John 6
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

1. Obviously Jesus is not arguing that God is at fault for failing to cause them to "believe".

Again - Christ appeals to seeing and then believing. In this case coming to christ and also believing.

seeing Christ and the signs He performed called the people to choose whether to believe or not.

Christ does not say "I failed to pith your brain and still you do not believe" NOR does He say "I forcibly pithed your brain but still for some reason you are not believing" - these methods are not Christ’s - but Satan's.

Christ showed that HE was showing them the bread of life - just as He showed to the disciples but these listeners were refusing to choose - the work of God - to believe. Of course many of these same people would later become Christians in Acts 2 - for now they were stuck in unbelief.

John 6
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

2. vs 40 emphasizes the inconvenient detail "he who BELIEVES" is saved. Not "he who no longer believes is saved".

3. - "you have seen me - so believe" for the model is "everyone who beholds the Son and believes.. Will have eternal life" – This is not a promise to “whosoever believeth not on me – though they used to believe at one time” as some OSAS revisionism imagines.

This text takes into context the foreknowledge of God “all that He has given Me – I should lose nothing” the reference is to the future results and the fact that God knows them.


No emphasis is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I pith will be forced to believe". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

3. Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.

But he does not say “all that are drawn WILL choose to come” nor does He say “All that are drawn WILL come and WILL believe”, nor does the text says “God will only draw SOME”. (Yet this is exactly the distinctive teaching of Calvinism).

The text says that no one CAN come to Christ without first being drawn by God.

John 12:32 "I will Draw ALL"

But it is not "ALL" that choose to accept eternal life -- as it turns out.


Thus vs 40 is correct to emphasize the inconvenient detail "he who BELIEVES" is saved. Not "he who no longer believes is saved".

The point is easy to see.

I have dealt with John 6:44-45; 64-65 and 12:20-32 in an exegetical fashion and what is your response?

My response is to point to the sections of the text that your remarks ignored - the "inconvenient details" that do not fit the arbitrary selection model and that do not fit salvation "of unbelievers" - in the case of those who did believe but then fell away.

If my exegesis is wrong, please point it out with reasonable exegetical evidence to the contrary!

I do that each time by showing the detail that your exegesis glossed over and emphasizing it in my comments on the same.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As for John 12 - I have pointed to the detail you avoided - before -

John 12
25 "" He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.
26 ""If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.


This is the “all” the “unqualified all” scope of John 12. Christ deals with all mankind in vs 25-26 – both the lost and the saved.

Christ does not say “only some of each nationality who love their life will lose it”. Christ does not say “only some of each nationality who discount their life in this world will keep it”. Christ does not say “for some of you – serving Me will mean following Me – for WHERE I am there a few of my servants will be also”. Christ does not say “The Father will honor some of those who serve Me”. Nor does He say “some of you will be allowed to choose to Serve Me”.

(For an example of Christ arguing for “SOME” see His message about being celibate. Matt 19:11)


27 "" Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, " Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 "" Father, glorify Your name.'' Then a voice came out of heaven: ""I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.''
29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "" An angel has spoken to Him.''


30 Jesus answered and said, "" This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 "" Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 ""And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.''

Christ is not using a slippery marketing tactic to make it “Appear” that He is more generous than He really is. He does not say “I draw at least one of every KIND of human”. Yet for some this is what they want Christ to be saying here.

The Jews were using a Calvinist model of “God only cares for the few”, God only cares for “some” – namely the Jews. In the same way Calvinism imagines that God only cares for the arbitrarily selected “few” of Matt 7. Jesus here debunks the Jewish form of the Calvinist “arbitrary selection” by telling the Jews that these Greeks illustrate the point that God draws ALL – even non-Jews. He does not make the Calvinist argument of “God draws two from among the gentiles” thus getting in “both kinds” or “samples from both groups”.

Rather the statement is framed in a way that fits the Arminian model perfectly. It must be “edited” to make it Calvinist.

 

[BobRyan]

I pointed to the details in Heb 8 and Jer 31 where God makes the covenant so that it is between God and Israel.

Thus Israel can choose to reject or accept.

God makes the covenant with Israel and God secures the agreement of Israel by His part of the covenant "I will...cause you to walk in my statutes..."

Jeremiah is the one writing - and it is in Jeremiah's text that God specifically says that all of His promises are "conditional".

Your eisegeting the idea of "no free will" into the word "cause" shows a disregard for the context in chapter 18 for Jeremiah's writing as found in chapter 31.

Jeremiah 18

6"Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
7"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8 IF that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.
9"Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
10 IF it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.

To "cause" them to obey means that God is the primary cause of their obedience whereas their willingness is a secondary cause.

1. In the Bible there is no such thing as "unwilling obedience" - except among the wicked at the end of time forced to acknowledge God's justice.

2. In the Bible there is no such thing as "obey and then choose to obey".

3. I have already shown the "God as first cause" texts in the Bible where the "Goodness of God leads you to repentance" but does not delete your free will nor cause you to repent and then later you choose to repent.

The same is true in Philippians 2:12-13. They are to willingly obey (v. 12) but the primary cause for any willingness to obey and do is God not them (v. 13).

At no point does Phil 2 even say that God chose repentance for them.

Paul says "it is no longer I who live - but Christ that lives in me" - Gal 2:20 - and also says "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9.

The Calvinist trick of trying to make God the robot-controller of Paul fails here because it would mean that Paul is buffeting his body for fear that God might forget to cause him not to be disqualified.

Only WHOSOEVER WILL believe in the gospel received eternal life but it is God that gives the willingness to come and believe in Christ - Jn. 6:37-40, Jn. 17:2.

You had not a single text in that list saying "God made them willing" yet you tossed them around as if you did.



You reverse the stated cause and effect order in these texts and must to defend your errors.

You simply reject the cause and affect order given in the scriptures because it does not suit your man made theology.

Romans 10 "With the heart man believes resulting in " what?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Those drawn by the Father to the Son are never named but only described by what they will do - they will come to the Son because they have been drawn by the Father. Even you have admitted that the Father forknew who they were. However, even though He knows who they are WE DO NOT and so the gospel is preached to all and "anyone" and "everyone" and "all" are invited to come. However, even you have to admit that the only ones who do come are the same the Father foreknew and those are "ALL" whom the Father gave not "ALL" who are invited.

Bottom line, your arguments below are baseless as they are founded upon the invitation not upon those given by the Father and drawn by the Father.

You cannot take John 12:32 and interpret in such a fashion to overthrow the more complete and detailed exposition of this doctrine in a previous portion of John. John 6 is first mention and detailed exposition while John 12:32 gives only passing mention which can be interpreted in its context in harmony with John 6.

You cannot deal with the more detailed exposition by Christ in John 6 so you take John 12:32 in order to overthrow it. That is backward thinking as well as eisgetical thinking.

You admit the word "men" is not in the Greek text. The term "all" is anarthous construction and even my Arminian Greek professor admitted that "pas" in the anarthous construct is to be interpreted to mean "all" kinds, classes but not all without exception, only "all" without distinction and John 12:20-32 is vital to understand John 6 is not restricting those given to the Son as Jews only.

The absolute proof that your position is wrong is that you cannot overthrow the language where FIRST MENTION occurs in John 6 and where a greater detailed exposition in John 6 occurs. You are simply PITTING scripture against scripture when John 12:32 can be interpreted to perfectly harmonize with what is its precedent and fuller exposition in John 6.

Bob, you are simply not demonstrating any objective attitude nor following basic rules of hermeneutic principles.

As for John 12 - I have pointed to the detail you avoided - before -

John 12
25 "" He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.
26 ""If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.


This is the “all” the “unqualified all” scope of John 12. Christ deals with all mankind in vs 25-26 – both the lost and the saved.

Christ does not say “only some of each nationality who love their life will lose it”. Christ does not say “only some of each nationality who discount their life in this world will keep it”. Christ does not say “for some of you – serving Me will mean following Me – for WHERE I am there a few of my servants will be also”. Christ does not say “The Father will honor some of those who serve Me”. Nor does He say “some of you will be allowed to choose to Serve Me”.

(For an example of Christ arguing for “SOME” see His message about being celibate. Matt 19:11)


27 "" Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, " Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 "" Father, glorify Your name.'' Then a voice came out of heaven: ""I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.''
29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "" An angel has spoken to Him.''


30 Jesus answered and said, "" This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 "" Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 ""And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.''

Christ is not using a slippery marketing tactic to make it “Appear” that He is more generous than He really is. He does not say “I draw at least one of every KIND of human”. Yet for some this is what they want Christ to be saying here.

The Jews were using a Calvinist model of “God only cares for the few”, God only cares for “some” – namely the Jews. In the same way Calvinism imagines that God only cares for the arbitrarily selected “few” of Matt 7. Jesus here debunks the Jewish form of the Calvinist “arbitrary selection” by telling the Jews that these Greeks illustrate the point that God draws ALL – even non-Jews. He does not make the Calvinist argument of “God draws two from among the gentiles” thus getting in “both kinds” or “samples from both groups”.

Rather the statement is framed in a way that fits the Arminian model perfectly. It must be “edited” to make it Calvinist.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob, you are only interested in winning an argument but you are not interested in the truth or being objective in ascertaining truth and it is obvious to most on this forum.

Look at your arguments below! They are an eisgetical mess. You cannot use Ezekiel 18 to interpret Ezekiel 36:26-27 for many reasons.

First, because Ezekiel 36 has reference to the future eschatalogical salvation which was still future from Paul's perspective in Romans 11:25-32.

Second, because Ezekiel 18 is speaking of God's general dealings with the rise and fall of nations not with the future covenant with eschatalogical national Israel.

Third, God makes the covenant with Israel and in both Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36 the terms are spelled out in "I will" but never "if you will."

Fourth, you list of objections are nothing but misrepresentations of our position.


1. In the Bible there is no such thing as "unwilling obedience" - except among the wicked at the end of time forced to acknowledge God's justice.


1. We do not believe in "forced obedience" but in God changing the "want to" by giving a "new heart" that wants to please God. Notice, in this covenant God gives a new heart and a new spirit FIRST and obedience follows SECOND.


2. In the Bible there is no such thing as "obey and then choose to obey".


2. However, there is such a thing as first giving a new heart and new spirit (new want to) followed by choosing to obey.


3. I have already shown the "God as first cause" texts in the Bible where the "Goodness of God leads you to repentance" but does not delete your free will nor cause you to repent and then later you choose to repent.

3. I have thorough shown your interpretation of Romans 2:4 is pure eisgesis. Please look on my thread "Romans 2:1-16" and you will find a complete exposition of Romans 2:1-5 that thoroughly proves your interpretation is absolutely impossible IF Biblical language and context and grammar mean anything and IF honesty and objectivity are the driving force behind your investigation.


At no point does Phil 2 even say that God chose repentance for them.

4. All I said was God is the one who worked in them to "will" and to "do" of His good pleasure. Is repentance and faith in Christ "his good pleasure"? However, listen to the Church at Jerusalem about where repentance unto life comes from:

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. - Acts 11:18


Paul says "it is no longer I who live - but Christ that lives in me" - Gal 2:20 - and also says "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9.

The Calvinist trick of trying to make God the robot-controller of Paul fails here because it would mean that Paul is buffeting his body for fear that God might forget to cause him not to be disqualified.

5. You are so intent on fighting "Calvinism" that you cannot even see straight when it comes to the Scriptures. I really don't see your point in using Galatians 2:20? I Corinthians 9 has to do with his calling as an apostle and minister of the gospel not his own personal salvation. Loss of salvation is not his concern here at all. His concern is loss of reward and loss of use by Christ due to failing to be obedient to his particular field of service that he has been called unto.


You had not a single text in that list saying "God made them willing" yet you tossed them around as if you did.

You don't even understand the words "God made them willing" and this idea is expressed throughout the scriptures:

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, - Psa. 110:3a

"For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL..." - Philip. 2:13

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Bob, I know you do not have any objectivity at all. But just try to objectively consider the above scriptures and ask yourself what is the willingness of His people expressly attributed to in all the above passages?

Let me help you think objectively. In Psa. 110:3 when will God's people be willing? In Philippians 2:13 what is the stated cause for Christians to be willing to do His will? In Ezekiel and Jeremiah what is attributed to their obedience of His will?

I pointed to the details in Heb 8 and Jer 31 where God makes the covenant so that it is between God and Israel.

Thus Israel can choose to reject or accept.



Jeremiah is the one writing - and it is in Jeremiah's text that God specifically says that all of His promises are "conditional".

Your eisegeting the idea of "no free will" into the word "cause" shows a disregard for the context in chapter 18 for Jeremiah's writing as found in chapter 31.

Jeremiah 18

6"Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
7"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8 IF that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.
9"Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
10 IF it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.



1. In the Bible there is no such thing as "unwilling obedience" - except among the wicked at the end of time forced to acknowledge God's justice.

2. In the Bible there is no such thing as "obey and then choose to obey".

3. I have already shown the "God as first cause" texts in the Bible where the "Goodness of God leads you to repentance" but does not delete your free will nor cause you to repent and then later you choose to repent.



At no point does Phil 2 even say that God chose repentance for them.

Paul says "it is no longer I who live - but Christ that lives in me" - Gal 2:20 - and also says "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9.

The Calvinist trick of trying to make God the robot-controller of Paul fails here because it would mean that Paul is buffeting his body for fear that God might forget to cause him not to be disqualified.



You had not a single text in that list saying "God made them willing" yet you tossed them around as if you did.



You reverse the stated cause and effect order in these texts and must to defend your errors.

You simply reject the cause and affect order given in the scriptures because it does not suit your man made theology.

Romans 10 "With the heart man believes resulting in " what?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you are only interested in winning an argument but you are not interested in the truth or being objective in ascertaining truth and it is obvious to most on this forum.

Look at your arguments below! They are an eisgetical mess. You cannot use Ezekiel 18 to interpret Ezekiel 36:26-27 for many reasons.

I am using Jeremiah 18 as context for Jeremiah 31:33-34 (the New Covenant quoted in Heb 8. Same author, same book, context in prior text leading into Jer 31.

If you have a problem with that being exegesis - I suggest that your problem is with the concept itself. (Which might explain a lot - come to think of it)

First, because Ezekiel 36 has reference to the future eschatalogical salvation which was still future from Paul's perspective in Romans 11:25-32.

Second, because Ezekiel 18 is speaking of God's general dealings with the rise and fall of nations not with the future covenant with eschatalogical national Israel.

While it is true that Ezek 36 speaks of a future that now is only possible in the New Earth - and applies to the entire church as Israel, it is not true that the New Covenant of Jer 31 and also cited in Heb 8 is "not individual" as if people were saved in "sets" or by nations -- salvation is individual as we saw on John 12.

Third, God makes the covenant with Israel and in both Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36 the terms are spelled out in "I will" but never "if you will."

Jonah gives the same "I will" message to Ninevah - but the conditional nature of prophecy was demonstrated - nonetheless.

Fourth, you list of objections are nothing but misrepresentations of our position.


1. In the Bible there is no such thing as "unwilling obedience" - except among the wicked at the end of time forced to acknowledge God's justice.


1. We do not believe in "forced obedience" but in God changing the "want to" by giving a "new heart" that wants to please God.

Prior to the New Birth comes the convicting of the Holy Spirit (John 16) where the Spirit convicts "The WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

It is only those who are "IN Christ" (2Cor 5) that are "new creation".

Those who are lost -- are "drawn to Christ" John 12:32.
Those who are lost are convicted of sin (John 16).

And they must CHOOSE to open the door - as John stated in Rev 3:20 "I stand AT THE DOOR and knock...If anyone hears my voice and OPENS the door - I will come in".

The lost sinner does not suddenly find himself born again and then as a born-again saint "choose" to be a saint or choose to follow Christ since that is already what he is.

Rather "with the heart" the lost "believes" resulting in righteousness, with the mouth they confess "resulting in salvation" Rom 10:10.

Notice, in this covenant God gives a new heart and a new spirit FIRST and obedience follows SECOND.

There is agreement that the new birth comes before the sanctified life - but prior to the new birth - there is conviction of sin and the choice to "open the door".

He "came unto His own and His own received Him not" John 1 is a choice made prior to the New Birth and so also "But to as many as RECEIVED him did He give the right to be called the sons of God" John 1 - a choice made prior to the New Birth.


2. In the Bible there is no such thing as "obey and then choose to obey".

2. However, there is such a thing as first giving a new heart and new spirit (new want to) followed by choosing to obey.

True in a sense - but not to the extreme of "first given a new heart then choose to open the door and let Christ into your life".

Which is the extreme of Calvinism.

BTW - I will admit to this - the Calvinist model (5 point) is the only logical model that would allow for OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Sorry, it was my misreading of your post that I thought you were referring to Ezekiel 18 when I was responding to your quotation of Jeremiah 18.
The passage in Revelation that you repeatedly use for sinners choosing to come to Christ is not addressed to lost sinners but to the church that as a church is grown cold. Your application is a contradiction to the context in which it is found. Perhaps Revelation 22:17 may be a more suitable text for your position.

It is pointless to continue arguing with you in regard to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit as you clearly do not see nor accept the Biblical distinction between the general and effectual calling of the Holy Spirit even though it is spelled out in scriptures (I Cor. 1:20-31; Rom. 8:28-30; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13-14; etc.). The general call is accompanied by the natural convicting power of the Word of God which never ends in true conversion (2 Cor. 7:10) but only in worldly sorrow which the natural man always resists effectually (Acts 7:51).

Nor will we get anywhere by pointing out that John 1:12 refers to adoption as the word for "power" is exousia "authority" when John 1:13 is given as the cause for man's response in verse 12.

Nor will we get anywhere by pointing out that there is a distinction between spiritual life versus judicial/legal eternal life.

I am too old to spend the mental rigor in debating these points with a man who characteristically has his mind made up and does not project much objectivity but is more interested in winning an argument than knowing the truth.

I am using Jeremiah 18 as context for Jeremiah 31:33-34 (the New Covenant quoted in Heb 8. Same author, same book, context in prior text leading into Jer 31.

If you have a problem with that being exegesis - I suggest that your problem is with the concept itself. (Which might explain a lot - come to think of it)



While it is true that Ezek 36 speaks of a future that now is only possible in the New Earth - and applies to the entire church as Israel, it is not true that the New Covenant of Jer 31 and also cited in Heb 8 is "not individual" as if people were saved in "sets" or by nations -- salvation is individual as we saw on John 12.



Jonah gives the same "I will" message to Ninevah - but the conditional nature of prophecy was demonstrated - nonetheless.



Prior to the New Birth comes the convicting of the Holy Spirit (John 16) where the Spirit convicts "The WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

It is only those who are "IN Christ" (2Cor 5) that are "new creation".

Those who are lost -- are "drawn to Christ" John 12:32.
Those who are lost are convicted of sin (John 16).

And they must CHOOSE to open the door - as John stated in Rev 3:20 "I stand AT THE DOOR and knock...If anyone hears my voice and OPENS the door - I will come in".

The lost sinner does not suddenly find himself born again and then as a born-again saint "choose" to be a saint or choose to follow Christ since that is already what he is.

Rather "with the heart" the lost "believes" resulting in righteousness, with the mouth they confess "resulting in salvation" Rom 10:10.



There is agreement that the new birth comes before the sanctified life - but prior to the new birth - there is conviction of sin and the choice to "open the door".

He "came unto His own and His own received Him not" John 1 is a choice made prior to the New Birth and so also "But to as many as RECEIVED him did He give the right to be called the sons of God" John 1 - a choice made prior to the New Birth.


2. In the Bible there is no such thing as "obey and then choose to obey".



True in a sense - but not to the extreme of "first given a new heart then choose to open the door and let Christ into your life".

Which is the extreme of Calvinism.

BTW - I will admit to this - the Calvinist model (5 point) is the only logical model that would allow for OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob