Why should I...?

[ReformedBaptist]

Is it not folly on your behalf to assume that I'm not a baptist, based solely on my forum account missing some information?

And perhaps I'm failing to see something, but I do not understand what you mean by "only want the answer you wish to hear". Are you reading something between my lines that doesn't exist? If you are, please don't. I'm not looking for one answer. I'm not looking to tickle my ears, or to re-affirm any kind of previous belief or understanding. I'm looking for people who consider themselves "Calvinist" (as in the 5-points of TULIP) to help me further understand "Calvinism" as a whole. The Internet is an information rich resource on the subject, but I would much rather prefer the first-hand accounts and knowledge of people that I can speak with in an all-most-real-time environment.

As I've stated previously, twice now, I am not a "Calvinist". I'm not looking to propagate or perpetuate "Calvinist" theology, doctrine, or ideas. I'm looking to expand my personal understanding and knowledge of the subject. And at this moment in time, the only source I wish to draw from is "Calvinist"s themselves. As time draws on, I will be looking into arguments and information against the subject at hand.

I will not willy-nilly just accept something because one other person has told me, "This is the way it is." I am going to compare, contrast, and test everything that comes onto my plate; and I'm going to test those things against Scripture. I'm looking for biblical truth- in as much as I can find from peers and considerably more educated persons. If it's the truth, and myself with Scripture cannot find any grounds to dismiss it, then I'll cling to that truth until the day I die (or until proven otherwise). And if it's garbage, guess what? I'm going to throw it away, the same way I throw The Watchtower publication away every time a JW comes pounding on my door trying to "educate" me.

Given your stated purpose, I would suggest an online discussion forum not to be the best place for you to define things. Like you said, you want to learn from those who are educated. Then look to men whom God has called to preach, who hold a good testimony in Christ, that hold those doctrines.

But also look to men who finished well, like a Spurgeon, and see how they understood the Scriptures. I would recommend, for example, Sprugeon's sermon on election.

 

[mindsleeve]

...also look to men who finished well, like a Spurgeon, and see how they understood the Scriptures. I would recommend, for example, Sprugeon's sermon on election.

Thank you for the resource reference, and your opinions. They're greatly appreciated RB.

 

[annsni]

Is it not folly on your behalf to assume that I'm not a baptist, based solely on my forum account missing some information?

If you were Baptist, you would have said "Baptist" in your application. However, you wrote "none". It's not missing information - you gave the information that you have no denomination and no home church. So what does that say?

 

[mindsleeve]

If you were Baptist, you would have said "Baptist" in your application. However, you wrote "none". It's not missing information - you gave the information that you have no denomination and no home church. So what does that say?

What does it say when I ask for information on a specific subject from knowledgeable people, and instead I get posts addressing subjects that are irrelevant to the OP?

Are we going to stay on topic with my OP and questions, or is this thread going to be derailed like so many others?

I appreciated your initial response, but this isn't helpful to me in the slightest. If you care to talk of such matters, we can do that through private messages, email, or even in another thread. But now isn't the time or the place to address my profile status'.

If this thread needs to be moved to another part of the forum because my profile doesn't say "BAPTIST", then by all means, the moderators/administrators of this site are well within their right to move this thread, and I would ask that they do such. But if you're just going to argue about something so far off topic, please desist from such, and please return your focus to my OP.

Thank you.

 

[Tom Butler]

If this thread needs to be moved to another part of the forum because my profile doesn't say "BAPTIST", then by all means, the moderators/administrators of this site are well within their right to move this thread, and I would ask that they do such. But if you're just going to argue about something so far off topic, please desist from such, and please return your focus to my OP.

Thank you.

Sorry,brother, you started this when you ignored the rules. You can't have it both ways. You can't fail to list Baptist as your denomination in your profile and still post in the Baptist-only sections. You are either Baptist or you're not, and what you put in your profile is what counts.

While the moderator may move this thread, you should have started it in the Other Christian Denominations section yourself.

John Toppass and annsi are well within their rights to question your right to post in this section. And they are being helpful to you by pointing you in the right direction regarding the rules.

 

[blackbird]

This thread has been moved from General Discussions forum because the OP does not list any denomination in his profile and is not titled to post in Baptist Only forums.

Blackbird
Moderator

 

[mindsleeve]

Now that that madness is over, can we all play nice, get along, and treat one another with a little Christ-like love, while we focus on the original subject matter at hand?

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Given your stated purpose, I would suggest an online discussion forum not to be the best place for you to define things. Like you said, you want to learn from those who are educated. Then look to men whom God has called to preach, who hold a good testimony in Christ, that hold those doctrines.

But also look to men who finished well, like a Spurgeon, and see how they understood the Scriptures. I would recommend, for example, Sprugeon's sermon on election.

I agree - highly recommended. Here is the link to the sermon from my friend - http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0041.htm

 

[BobRyan]

This question is not intended to start any kind of debate or argument. This is merely an attempt to help satisfy my own personal interest and understanding.

Q: Why should I be a Calvinist? (there's actually two more questions, which follow at the end of this post)

You should not be a Calvinist because scripture flatly contradicts the "arbitrary selection" doctrine of Calvinism sometimes masked with the term "unconditional election".

You should not be a Calvinist because the Bible argues the case for "Whosoever will" instead of "whosoever's brain God just so happens to zap".

You should not be a Calvinist because God offers salvation to all -

"God so Loved the World that He gave..." John 3:16

"God is not willing for any to perish" 2Peter 3

"God draws ALL men" unto him - John 12:32.

"Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2.

"The Spirit of truth convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12.

God is the first cause.

God's statement "I will draw ALL men unto Me" as the primary cause. John 12:32


John 1 "He is the light that coming into the World enlightens EVERY man" John 1:9

the Rev 3 fact "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in ".

God's First cause act in 1John 2:2" He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

God's first cause act in 1John 4:14 "the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ruiz]

Bob,

I could and would go down through each verse and show how either they are taken out of context, do not contradict our teachings, or how the Greek substantiates our view. However, I seem to think you have not read our own books and have taken these from people from your own point of view. Seriously, you really cannot quote Revelation 3 as a salvation verse and you seriously cannot believe that God enlightens every single person? No, Revelation 3 is written to God's church and every single person is not enlightened.

I would invite you to actually read what we believe from our own authors. I recommended Lorraine Boetner's book, "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination." YOu can find it here:

www.prclodi.com/storage/text-docs/predest.pdf

 

[Dr. Walter]

Bob,

I could and would go down through each verse and show how either they are taken out of context, do not contradict our teachings, or how the Greek substantiates our view. However, I seem to think you have not read our own books and have taken these from people from your own point of view. Seriously, you really cannot quote Revelation 3 as a salvation verse and you seriously cannot believe that God enlightens every single person? No, Revelation 3 is written to God's church and every single person is not enlightened.

I would invite you to actually read what we believe from our own authors. I recommended Lorraine Boetner's book, "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination." YOu can find it here:

www.prclodi.com/storage/text-docs/predest.pdf

Bob really does not care about careful exegesis or even expository common sense. He only cares about defending his position regardless of contrary evidence. I have yet to see him do a careful expository development of any passage that contradicts his position. Exposition means you must follow the contextual line of thinking and development and how verses and words relate to each other in the development of thought. From my observation point this is totally absent in his writings. He is more like a J.W. who jumps from text to text and pits scripture against scripture.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Q: Why should I be a Calvinist? (there's actually two more questions, which follow at the end of this post)

So please, inform me- what is the truth about Calvinism? What is the "argument" or proof for Calvinism? And why should I (or perhaps, why would I want to be) a Calvinist?

We believe "Calvinism" not out of team spirit so to speak, but because we find it in the Bible. We teach it because we believe it is the Gospel in its purest, clearest and most dynamic form. As Spurgeon stated -- “I have my own private opinion that there is not such a thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel, and nothing else.”

In summary, God owes fallen rebellious humanity absolutely nothing. Indeed, the wage of sin is death. With perfect justice, He could damn the entire human race. Yet, He chooses to save some, but not all. What is the basis for this decision? Is it on the basis of our good works or foreseen faith? No. In the Scriptures we see that God chose us in the beginning, before the foundation of the world, even recording our names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

So why do we come to Christ? Not because we choose Him, but because He first chose us. Not because we love Him, but because He first loved us. Not even because of our faith, for even that is a gift which he gives to us.

God is the author of our salvation. In the truest sense, "salvation is of the Lord."

 

[steaver]

In summary, God owes fallen rebellious humanity absolutely nothing. "

God being the Only God and Creator of all things owes no one anything.

This is true,

however,

because God set Adam up to fail He also obligated Himself to provide an Atonement to restore him.

Of course this was all planned before the foundation of the world was ever laid.

But back to the OP. Mindsleeve wants to know what the advantage is to being a Calvinist? Does it make you feel more holy? Does it make you feel more generous, or more loving, or whatever?

In other words, whats the point?

And the "because it is the word of God" answer means nothing to us who love the word of God just as much as a Calvinist.

BTW, I am like mindsleeve in the sense that I am very open to hearing from Calvinist on this, for I can somewhat understand Calvin's points even though I have not committed myself to embracing them.

So why should I believe Calvin? Again, don't give me the "it's the word of God" talking point.

 

[Rippon]

because God set Adam up to fail He also obligated Himself to provide an Atonement to restore him.

God set Adam up to fail is not exactly a god-honoring or biblical construct.

You belive that God is not obligated to anyone yet here you say that He has obligated Himself to provide atonement. God was under absolutely no obligation to save anyone. Out of His grace and mercy He has provided redemption.

I can somewhat understand Calvin's points even though I have not committed myself to embracing them.

Calvin did not come up with the points or five propositions. You should know that.

So why should I believe Calvin?

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Calvin is only a spokesman of the Lord.

 

[steaver]

God set Adam up to fail is not exactly a god-honoring or biblical construct.

.

Why not?

God is sovereign and has done many things that unregenerated human beings would call "ungodly" for His own good reasons and purposes.

Why do you think God put the forbidden tree in Adam's reach knowing full well Adam would disobey and partake?

God was under absolutely no obligation to save anyone. Out of His grace and mercy He has provided redemption.

God obligated Himself before He ever created a single human being. So yes, He is obligated unless He be found a liar.

Calvin did not come up with the points or five propositions. You should know that.

Yes, God did. I already heard that reasoning.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Calvin is only a spokesman of the Lord.

Re-read my quote. I never said believe "in" Calvin.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

And why should I (or perhaps, why would I want to be) a Calvinist?

I assume you are not talking about the secret handshakes or the annual pilgrimage to Geneva.

I would suggest Steve Brown's book "If God is in Charge." Interesting reading. Steve Brown is a seminary professor and a former pastor (for over 20 years). He also hosts Key Life, a daily radio program.

 

[annsni]

Why do you think God put the forbidden tree in Adam's reach knowing full well Adam would disobey and partake?

James 1:13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one."

 

[billwald]

Most Reformed people have not read Calvin. Reformed theology deviates from Calvin's writing. Dutch reformed theology is closer to Calvin than the Presbyterian interpretation.

 

[steaver]

James 1:13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one."

God did not tempt Adam as James points out.

So...

Why do you think God put the forbidden tree in Adam's reach knowing full well Adam would disobey and partake?

 

[annsni]

God did not tempt Adam as James points out.

So...

Why do you think God put the forbidden tree in Adam's reach knowing full well Adam would disobey and partake?

Would Adam have had free will if it were not there? Would he then not be sinning because he did not have the opportunity to sin? Would he be fully following God if there was no other choice?