Romans 2:1-15

[BobRyan]

Romans 1:18-3:8 is to prove why the gospel needs to be preached to the outright ungodly (1:18-32)

You keep repeating that as if repetition will delete the succeding examples out of Romans 2. It does not.

We can agree that Rom 1:18-32 does what you say - but Romans 2 is contrasting life with death - the way of the saints vs the way of the wicked. And so it is glaringly obvious that in Romans 2 Paul shows both the succeeding cases and the failing cases.

Impossible for the bible student to simply turn a blind eye to Romans 2 as you suggest.

In Romans 3 Paul speaks to the sinful nature of ALL - and the need of salvation by ALL - hence in Romans 3 Paul includes HIMSELF as among them.

By "contrast" in Romans 2 Paul points to the condemnation of those who reject the Gospel call to repentance and does NOT include himself in that group.

In Romans 1:18-32 Paul speaks to the barbarian case - of those who have not the Bible and are wicked -- and "again" Paul does NOT include himself as being among them.

In Romans 1:1-17 Paul speaks to the SAVED SAINTS of Rome and Paul DOES include himself among them.

Again - these details are impossible for the objective unbiased Bible student to simply ignore in favor of man made traditions opposed to the text itself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

You talk about repeating proven false interpretations - you take the cake.

I have shown repeatedly that Romans 2:15 and 17-29 deal with unregenerate self-righteous hypocrits who believe they will escape judgment based upon their own self-perception that they are more righteous than those in Romans 1:18-32.

A. Rom. 2:3 "THINKETH THOU"....escape the judgement of God.

B. Romans 2:17-24 - BOAST in the law

I have shown repeatedly that Romans 2:5-11 is the judgment of only those who come before him with this self-righteous confidence which RIGHTEOUS judgement will expose in contrast with the righteousness of the gospel (v. 16).

I have shown that the believer in Christ will NEVER come before such a judgement as Christ explicitly states:

"SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION (same Greek term for judgement) BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE" when they believed - John 5:24

Paul says THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION (same Greek term for judgement) TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS - Romans 8:1

Hence, Romans 8:1 says there is no judgement "NOW" and John 5:24 says they "SHALL NOT COME" into judgement later in regard to ETERNAL LIFE because they have already (perfect tense) PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

You keep repeating that as if repetition will delete the succeding examples out of Romans 2. It does not.

We can agree that Rom 1:18-32 does what you say - but Romans 2 is contrasting life with death - the way of the saints vs the way of the wicked. And so it is glaringly obvious that in Romans 2 Paul shows both the succeeding cases and the failing cases.

Impossible for the bible student to simply turn a blind eye to Romans 2 as you suggest.

In Romans 3 Paul speaks to the sinful nature of ALL - and the need of salvation by ALL - hence in Romans 3 Paul includes HIMSELF as among them.

By "contrast" in Romans 2 Paul points to the condemnation of those who reject the Gospel call to repentance and does NOT include himself in that group.

In Romans 1:18-32 Paul speaks to the barbarian case - of those who have not the Bible and are wicked -- and "again" Paul does NOT include himself as being among them.

In Romans 1:1-17 Paul speaks to the SAVED SAINTS of Rome and Paul DOES include himself among them.

Again - these details are impossible for the objective unbiased Bible student to simply ignore in favor of man made traditions opposed to the text itself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You talk about repeating proven false interpretations - you take the cake.

I have shown repeatedly that Romans 2:15 and 17-29 deal with unregenerate self-righteous hypocrits who believe they will escape judgment based upon their own self-perception that they are more righteous than those in Romans 1:18-32.

And you have been repeatedly debunked by showing that chapter 2 provides saints from among BOTH Jew and Gentile in the succeeding role as well as the wicked among BOTH Jew and Gentile that go to hell.

You simply ignore the posts and repeat your assertions as if that is a compelling form of response. As long as you leave that open field untouched I simply continue to bring up these details found in the text - that you are so anxious to ignore.

where is the difficulty in seeing this point?

And what point do you think the reader will not "notice"??

I have shown repeatedly that Romans 2:5-11 is the judgment of only those who come before him with this self-righteous confidence

And you have been repeatedly debunked for in those SAME verses we see the saints of Rom 1:1-17 who "persevere in doing good" and who then get the reward of "immortality and eternal life" in the context of a "Gospel Judgment" in vs 16.

I have shown that the believer in Christ will NEVER come before such a judgement as Christ explicitly states:

You have been repeatedly debunked there - as you were shown that Dan 7:22 has the saints as the subject of the judgment were "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

The same judgment is seen in 2Cor 5:10 "WE must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" and in Rev 14:6-7 "the hour of HIS judgment has come" and in Rom 2:11-16 "When according to my Gospel God WILL judge ALL through Christ". Peter says "Judgment begins with the house of God".

You were debunked when it was shown in Rom 2:6-16 that the saints among both Jew and Gentile were saved in that "Gospel" judgment and that this even included Gentiles who did not have access to scripture at all.

What is not to get? you simply ignore the points raised and at the end claim a degree of "success" as if ignore these points is the best way to answer them. All you do is show the places where your argument has no answer to the problem.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are making some fundemental errors. The very verse you quoted demonstrates that "THE LAW" is the standard for judgement in verses 6-10. The phrase "the works of the law" or works that are demanded by the law to be regarded righteous is defined by verse 7 whereas works that are in volation of that law is found in verse 8. This is not about LAWS plural but the fundemental law OF GOD that defines righteousness in the sight of God anywhere at anytime.

This is "the law" that IN PRINCIPLE is written upon the conscience of all men. This is "the law" that IN WRITING is EXPANDED upon the two tablets of stone. This is "the law" that is further expanded in the Jewish civil and religious order. This is "the law" that can be found among all governments of all times that conforms to the righteous CHARACTER of God and thus is "the law OF GOD."

There is nothing HYPOTHETICAL here or anything that should be interpreted HYPOTHETICAL here. This judgement is contextually defined with regard to ALL who come before God by THEIR OWN MERITS. There is only one standard of judgement for ALL who come to God by THEIR OWN MERITS and that is the law of God. ALL who come this way will be judged this way.

Paul wishes to make it clear to THIS KIND OF PERSON who THINKS (v. 3) this way, that the Law of God will be JUST and FAIR to ALL who come on the basis of PERSONAL MERIT. He therefore simply sets forth the JUST demands and JUST consequences while denying any BIAS due to MISCONCEPTIONS on their part or on the part of God. Good works will get good consequences and bad works will get bad consequences - Period! God's justice will not be influenced by who you are or by what you have not been exposed to. The role Model of definitive righteousness will be according to Paul's Gospel (v. 16) - the life of Jesus Christ - as the GOLD standard of righteousness in practical terms.

Paul simply spells out the JUST GUIDELINES to all who come by personal merit before God and all who come in that day by PERSONAL MERIT will be judged within these guideliness.

There is nothing HYPOTHETEICAL in Romans 2:6-10 or in Romans 3:9-21. The reasons that NONE who come by their own works will be justified under the law in Romans 3:9-21 is because of the JUST standards spelled out in Romans 2:6-10 instead of the misconceptions found in Romans 2:1-5; 17-24 in the minds of ALL who think they can be justified this way because they think their BETTER THAN THOU works measure up to God's Standard of good.

In direct contrast, ALL those who come to God THROUGH THE MERITS OF CHRIST are justified already becuase the Law has ALREADY been satisfied by the merits of Christ imputed to them by faith and the penalty of the law ALREADY satisfied by Christ thus not imputing sin to them. ALL who come this way "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death to life" ALREADY. In other words, the justified are actually justified rather than HYPOTHETICALLY justified as your position demands.

 

[BobRyan]

You are making some fundemental errors. The very verse you quoted demonstrates that "THE LAW" is the standard for judgement in verses 6-10. The phrase "the works of the law" or works that are demanded by the law to be regarded righteous is defined by verse 7 whereas works that are in volation of that law is found in verse 8. This is not about LAWS plural but the fundemental law OF GOD that defines righteousness in the sight of God anywhere at anytime.

In vs 6-7 the saints who persevere are rewarded with eternal life - in a future "Gospel jugment" identified in vs 16.

There is no question that this is about "The LAW" of God -- the one that says do not worship idols, do not steal, do not commit adultery. Just as Paul points out in this chapter.

It is the same Law written on stone and in 2Cor 3 written on the tablets of the human heart - as seen in Heb 8 - the New Covenant.

Which is why Romans 2 ends with that very same concept -- the work of the Holy Spirit - circumcising the heart... the New Birth of John 3 (yes -- even pre-cross... still just one Gospel).

This is "the law" that IN PRINCIPLE is written upon the conscience of all men. This is "the law" that IN WRITING is EXPANDED upon the two tablets of stone.

There is on mention at all in Romans 2 that all the gentiles (all the barbarians of Romans 1) show the "works of the law written on the heart" or that they show that "circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit" Rom 2:27-29 was done for them.

Only upon some of the gentiles is this said to be the case Rom 2:11-16.

There is nothing HYPOTHETICAL here or anything that should be interpreted HYPOTHETICAL here. This judgement is contextually defined with regard to ALL who come before God by THEIR OWN MERITS.

At no point in Romans 2 does Paul claim that those who succeed in Rom 2:6-29 are "coming before God by their own merits and succeeding".

In Romans 2 "he is a Jew who is a Jew INWARDLY" and "circumcision is of the heart" by the Holy Spirit.

In Romans 2 "it is the GOODNESS of God that leads you to repentance".

In Romans 2 it is the saints among both Jew and Gentile (as we saw in Romans 1:1-7 "To the Jew first and also to the Greek") - that are rewarded with "immortality and eternal life".

There is only one standard of judgement for ALL who come to God by THEIR OWN MERITS and that is the law of God. ALL who come this way will be judged this way.

That is true - but that is not the subject of Romans 2.

Paul wishes to make it clear to THIS KIND OF PERSON who THINKS (v. 3) this way, that the Law of God will be JUST and FAIR to ALL who come on the basis of PERSONAL MERIT. He therefore simply sets forth the JUST demands and JUST consequences while denying any BIAS due to MISCONCEPTIONS on their part or on the part of God.

This is the part where you try to eisegete the Romans 3 topic back into Romans 2 as if Romans 2 only said "We are no different from them - for ALL are under sin.. and there is none righteous".

However nice as that is for Romans 3 -- it is NOT the point being made in Romans 2.

Which is why your Romans 2 explanation fails every time. The details in Romans 2 that SHOW the succeeding cases -- the SAINTS among both the Jews and the gentiles that "persevere in doing good" and then are rewarded with "immortality and eternal life" continue to illude your view of the chapter.

In Matt 7 the good trees produce good fruit.

IN Matt 7 the bad trees produce bad fruit and are destroyed.

Good works will get good consequences and bad works will get bad consequences - Period! God's justice will not be influenced by who you are or by what you have not been exposed to.

You seem to be getting the point of Matt 7 and Romans 2 - just then.

According to Paul's "Gospel" (and in Gal 1:6-11 Paul says there is only ONE) - there is a future judgment (Rom 2:11-16) where all are judged and it is the "DOERS" that are JUSTIFIED.

Notice that the Gospel concept of Justification is central to Romans 2 and it is the basis for the Gospel judgment mentioned in Rom 2:11-16.

There is nothing HYPOTHETEICAL in Romans 2:6-10

if it is true that Romans 2:6-16 is "real" and so also Romans 2:24-29 -- then the succeeding cases we are shown there are REAL.

And as Christ points out in Matt 7 - there will be the case of the saints that go to heaven and the case of the wicked who do not.

or in Romans 3:9-21. The reas

===============

Now if we change the subject - then we get to Romans 3.

NONE who come by their own works will be justified under the law in Romans 3:9-21

That part is true - and that part fits Romans 3.

It does NOT fit Romans 1:1-17 dealing with "The Jew first and also the greek" and it does not fit Romans 2:6-29.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I believe the gospel is about Christ's provision for sinners as the Substitute before the Law in the sight of God that satisfies all of its demands.

Indeed it is. And it is also about the Romans 6 and Romans 8 concept of freedom from slavery to sin so that sin should no longer have power over us.

When we are born again we are brought under the RULE (kingdom) of God and the King reigns within our new nature by the presence of the Indwelling Spirit of Christ.

And thus in Romans 8 "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh". By contrast Romans 8 says that those who walk after the flesh do not submit to the Law of God - "neither indeed can they".

That new nature is described in Hebrews 8 as a New Heart - with the Law of God written on both mind and heart under the New Covenant. The "ONE" Gospel in both OT and NT.

Thus all the perserverance of the saints texts - that some are so anxious to avoid.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are,if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.



Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Similar texts to the above -

Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.



2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


God's Word giving Real Warning - to Endure/Perservere.

2Peter 2:20-22
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality,
those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "" A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,'' and,
""A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.''

Rom 6:
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.


Matt 7
13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[Andre]

I have shown repeatedly that Romans 2:15 and 17-29 deal with unregenerate self-righteous hypocrits who believe they will escape judgment based upon their own self-perception that they are more righteous than those in Romans 1:18-32.

A. Rom. 2:3 "THINKETH THOU"....escape the judgement of God.

B. Romans 2:17-24 - BOAST in the law

I have shown repeatedly that Romans 2:5-11 is the judgment of only those who come before him with this self-righteous confidence which RIGHTEOUS judgement will expose in contrast with the righteousness of the gospel (v. 16).

I do not see how such an argument works. Yes 2:5-11 occurs "sandwiched" between admonitions to the self-righteous. That certainly does not mean that Paul cannot, in verses 5-11 speak of a coming judgement with the good getting eternal life and those who do evil getting condemnation. In fact, this is precisely the kind of treatment that would make sense when trying to rebuke the sinner - remind him that there is indeed a coming judgement at which those who do evil will get condemnation. And, in such a context, it would be decidedly odd for Paul to describe the awarding of eternal life to the one who does good, if he does not believe this will actually happen.

Put yourself in the place of the recalcitrant sinner whom Paul is lecturing. If Paul is describing a purely unattainable standard for getting eternal life - a standard that cannot be achieved - then why should the sinner take him seriously in respect to the threat of condemnation?

In fact, if salvation is really by faith to the exclusion of good works, the sinner whom Paul is scolding could reply "Look Paul, since I can't get saved by my good works, what exactly does your warning consist in?" Look at it this way - the warning only makes sense as a warning if, indeed there is going to be a works-based judgement that the sinner will be subject to.

If Paul really believes that works have nothing to do with ultimate salvation and only depended on "faith", he would not warn the sinner about his sinful deeds, he would warn him about his lack of faith.

The warning to the self-righteous sinner only makes sense if the coming judgement, which after all is what that warning is all about, is actually a real event in all its details.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not see how such an argument works. Yes 2:5-11 occurs "sandwiched" between admonitions to the self-righteous. That certainly does not mean that Paul cannot, in verses 5-11 speak of a coming judgement with the good getting eternal life and those who do evil getting condemnation. In fact, this is precisely the kind of treatment that would make sense when trying to rebuke the sinner - remind him that there is indeed a coming judgement at which those who do evil will get condemnation. And, in such a context, it would be decidedly odd for Paul to describe the awarding of eternal life to the one who does good, if he does not believe this will actually happen.

Indeed - Christ also presents the same warning "not everyone who says Lord! Lord! will enter ... but he who DOES the will of My Father".

The warning to sinners and encouragement to saints includes the example of what happens to those who reject the Gospel as well as the reward of the saints. Notice that Paul does not include himself in Romans 2 as an example of a Jew that if failing.

Dr. Walter is painting with a very broad brush in Romans 2 trying to wash out the examples of the succeeding Jews and gentiles described in Romans 2 while highlighting only the failing scenarios for Jews and Gentiles in Romans 2.

A transparently flawed effort to eisegete a particular bias into the text - no matter the inconvenient details found to the contrary in the text itself.

This follows the same pattern that was established in Romans 1 where both the succeeding example of the saints (vs 1-17) and the failing example of the wicked (vs 18-32) are emphasized for "the Jew first and also to the Greek" vs 17.

Impossible to ignore in favor of the bible-bending required by other less compelling solutions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

In regard to DOING the will of God in order to enter the kingdom Jesus made it quite clear what that was. They had to have a righteousness that EXCEEDED the best of religous men (v. 20). They had to have a righteousness that EQUALED that of God (v. 48). Those in Matthew 7:21-23 did not have THIS FOUNDATION and therefore all that they built upon it as the confessed good works in verse 22 is regarded as "iniquity" in verse 23 by Christ in spite of the fact that they claim him doubly as "Lord, Lord" and in spite of the fact they had performed all their "wonderful" works "in thy name." His response was not "I ONCE knew you but no longer; but "I NEVER knew you." So it will be with all who approach judgement day on the basis of profession in Christ "Lord, Lord" in marriage with "Have we not done many wonderful" works!! This is a denial of the very foundation necessary to build a life of good works upon - the perfect righteousness of God (Mt. 5:48) that satisfies the law of God ALREADY before judgement day. All who come on the basis of "good works" to be justified before God on judgement day will hear the same response (Rom. 2:6-10 with Rom. 3:9-21). The JUSTIFIED are already just that JUSTIFIED and shall not come into judgement on the basis of their works because it is on the basis of Christ's works they have already been JUSTIFIED - Jn. 5:24.

Notice that the difference between the two houses was not the houses but the foundation upon which the house was built that stood the judgement. There is but one foundation laid that can withstand the judgement (I Cor. 3:11) even though the houses may not stand judgement for REWARDS IN HEAVEN (1 Cor. 3:12-15).

Indeed - Christ also presents the same warning "not everyone who says Lord! Lord! will enter ... but he who DOES the will of My Father".

The warning to sinners and encouragement to saints includes the example of what happens to those who reject the Gospel as well as the reward of the saints. Notice that Paul does not include himself in Romans 2 as an example of a Jew that if failing.

Dr. Walter is painting with a very broad brush in Romans 2 trying to wash out the examples of the succeeding Jews and gentiles described in Romans 2 while highlighting only the failing scenarios for Jews and Gentiles in Romans 2.

A transparently flawed effort to eisegete a particular bias into the text - no matter the inconvenient details found to the contrary in the text itself.

This follows the same pattern that was established in Romans 1 where both the succeeding example of the saints (vs 1-17) and the failing example of the wicked (vs 18-32) are emphasized for "the Jew first and also to the Greek" vs 17.

Impossible to ignore in favor of the bible-bending required by other less compelling solutions.

in Christ,

Bob