How does OSAS fail the Sola Scriptura Test?

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Matt 18 is explicitly teaching "forgiveness revoked" in the case of "I forgave you ALL that debt" followed by "make him pay ALL".

I disagree with your interpretation of that scripture.

Matthew Henry says of this passage "We are not to suppose that God actually forgives men, and afterwards reckons their guilt to them to condemn them; but this latter part of the parable shows the false conclusions many draw as to their sins being pardoned, though their after-conduct shows that they never entered into the spirit, or experienced the sanctifying grace of the gospel."

1. Matthew Henry offers a circular argument thus his solution fails at the start. The parable warns those who HAVE been forgiven about the danger of not forgiving others AS they HAVE been forgiven - and thus losing that forgiveness. Matt Henry stands the parable on its head AS IF the parable was to the servant who HAD NOT BEEN FORGIVEN anything by the king - but merely claimed to have been forgiven when in fact the King never forgave him and never hoped that the servant would in like manner NOT FORGIVE others just as the servant had NOT been forgiven by the king.

What a distorted solution to cling to ..

2. You do not actually quote the text - because the details of the text do not fit the man made tradition of OSAS - and that is more than a little instructive.

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

In the Matthew Henry rewrite of this passage it would say "You wicked slave - I did NOT forgive you ANY of that debt when you pleaded with me - should you have done to others as I did to you? never? you should have been forgiving to others unlike Me who was unforgiving of you!"

What a wrench-and-bend of the Bible details all in service to OSAS.

I find it hard to believe that anyone takes it seriously after reading the text objectively.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Did Jesus say..."you did not choose me,but I have chosen you"?

Jesus said that in relation to the ministry of being an apostle given to the 12. There is no question in the 1Cor 12 model, that God is the one that selects the specific ministry of each of the saints.

But the call to salvation is "to whosoever will" and in Rom 2:11-13 "God is not partial" as we see in 2Peter 3 "God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" and as we see in John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD.. that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish" for "with the heart man believes RESULTING in Righteousness and with the mouth he confesses RESULTING in salvation" Romans 10.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jedi Knight]

Jesus said that in relation to the ministry of being an apostle given to the 12. There is no question in the 1Cor 12 model, that God is the one that selects the specific ministry of each of the saints.

But the call to salvation is "to whosoever will" and in Rom 2:11-13 "God is not partial" as we see in 2Peter 3 "God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" and as we see in John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD.. that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish" for "with the heart man believes RESULTING in Righteousness and with the mouth he confesses RESULTING in salvation" Romans 10.

in Christ,

Bob

It was not a question to be answered. When you pound the same drum "Mathew 18" sounds like what cults do in order to support their doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

It was not a question to be answered. When you pound the same drum "Mathew 18" sounds like what cults do in order to support their doctrine.

Your avoidance of the text of scripture to resort instead to merely insulting the one posting - is "noted".

But for those who imagine that dark ages practice of ad hominem insults is a better form of sola scriptura testing than actually looking at the text of scripture - I would suggest a moment or two of prayerful reflection. Anybody can simply sling insults instead of looking at some inconvenient detail in scripture. No special talent to that - we could all resort to it if so inclined.

By their fruits you will know them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

1. Matthew Henry offers a circular argument thus his solution fails at the start. The parable warns those who HAVE been forgiven about the danger of not forgiving others AS they HAVE been forgiven - and thus losing that forgiveness. Matt Henry stands the parable on its head AS IF the parable was to the servant who HAD NOT BEEN FORGIVEN anything by the king - but merely claimed to have been forgiven when in fact the King never forgave him and never hoped that the servant would in like manner NOT FORGIVE others just as the servant had NOT been forgiven by the king.

What a distorted solution to cling to ..

2. You do not actually quote the text - because the details of the text do not fit the man made tradition of OSAS - and that is more than a little instructive.

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

In the Matthew Henry rewrite of this passage it would say "You wicked slave - I did NOT forgive you ANY of that debt when you pleaded with me - should you have done to others as I did to you? never? you should have been forgiving to others unlike Me who was unforgiving of you!"

What a wrench-and-bend of the Bible details all in service to OSAS.

I find it hard to believe that anyone takes it seriously after reading the text objectively.

in Christ,

Bob

What Bob fails to see is that this penalty has temporal limitations "until." There are temporal consequences for disobedence by children of God under the principle of "whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap." Eternal salvation does not over rule temporal consequences for sin here and now. Husbands who mistreat their wives God refuses to answer their prayers. You don't practice forgiveness toward others and God allows temporal painful consequences that otherwise would be restrained by God in regard to your own prayers.

Eternal salvation is not in view. In regard to eternal forgiveness that has been obtained solely on the basis of Christ's righteousness and sin payment - once for all. However, in regard to experiential salvation or temporal participation in the benefits of salvation that is conditioned upon faithfulness.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Jesus said that in relation to the ministry of being an apostle given to the 12. Bob

Oh really? Your not being consistent with the passage. John 15:16 is where Jesus said "You did not choose me but I have chosen you"....Judas had already departed "was a devil from the begining". The Lord was talking "in context" about chosen them "branches" to bear fruit and that their fruit should remain.
But you are quick to say that the branches represent ALL believers from the same context could be thrown into the fire "salvation lost in your thinking". Your not being consistent with the context now are you? So you should say "if consistent" only the "chosen 12" disiples could be thrown into the fire because they were the "only chosen" branches.......if your going to support that view. Context is King!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by annsni
I disagree with your interpretation of that scripture.

Matthew Henry says of this passage "We are not to suppose that God actually forgives men, and afterwards reckons their guilt to them to condemn them; but this latter part of the parable shows the false conclusions many draw as to their sins being pardoned, though their after-conduct shows that they never entered into the spirit, or experienced the sanctifying grace of the gospel."

1. Matthew Henry offers a circular argument thus his solution fails at the start. The parable warns those who HAVE been forgiven about the danger of not forgiving others AS they HAVE been forgiven - and thus losing that forgiveness. Matt Henry stands the parable on its head AS IF the parable was to the servant who HAD NOT BEEN FORGIVEN anything by the king - but merely claimed to have been forgiven when in fact the King never forgave him and never hoped that the servant would in like manner NOT FORGIVE others just as the servant had NOT been forgiven by the king.

What a distorted solution to cling to ..

2. You do not actually quote the text - because the details of the text do not fit the man made tradition of OSAS - and that is more than a little instructive.

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, ifeach of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

In the Matthew Henry rewrite of this passage it would say "You wicked slave - I did NOT forgive you ANY of that debt when you pleaded with me - should you have done to others as I did to you? never? you should have been forgiving to others unlike Me who was unforgiving of you!"

What a wrench-and-bend of the Bible details all in service to OSAS.

I find it hard to believe that anyone takes it seriously after reading the text objectively.

What Bob fails to see is that this penalty has temporal limitations "until." There are temporal consequences for disobedence by children of God under the principle of "whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap." Eternal salvation does not over rule temporal consequences for sin here and now.

Ok - so now that is failed solution #2.

Matthew Henry suggest that the fully forgiven servant that fails to forgive others is judged for failing to be grateful for the full forgiveness he recieved - thus showing that he did not receive full forgiveness from the king and therefore had no basis on which he could forgive others.

Walter than takes a swing at it - claiming that outside of Gospel forgiveness God also forgives us earthly temporal debts and then revokes that forgiveness if we do not forgive others their temporal debts that they owe us - thus tossing all into literal earthly jail when Christ said "SO shall my Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive others"...

Hint - Observing that in fact God does not toss everyone into earthly jail when they fail to forgive one another - is left as a trivial exercise for the reader.

Turns out - the Gospel is the only basis for forgiveness from God - and this is a pretty hard lesson for the OSAS group.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Oh really? Your not being consistent with the passage. John 15:16 is where Jesus said "You did not choose me but I have chosen you"....Judas had already departed "was a devil from the begining".

Mary, Martha, Lazarus, Mary the Mother of Jesus, the 70 disciples that Jesus sent out on their Missionary journey etc - were all NOT at the John 15 meeting. Thus Christ is talking about choosing them as apostles - and is not claiming that they were the ones "chosen to believe in Christ".

At no point in all of scripture does Christ say "I chose you to believe in Me".

But what he does say "Come to Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" Matt 11.

But what he does say is "I stand at the DOOR and knock - if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3:20.
in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jedi Knight]

At no point in all of scripture does Christ say "I chose you to believe in Me".


Bob

Trying to ad extra words won't cut it. Jesus clearly said "You have not chosen me,but I have chosen you". Also "we are bound to give thanks always to God for you. brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning CHOSEN YOU to salvation." 2 Thessalonians 2:13 They are His sheep " He CALLS his own sheep by name and leads them out." John 10:3

 

[Dr. Walter]

Walter than takes a swing at it - claiming that outside of Gospel forgiveness God also forgives us earthly temporal debts and then revokes that forgiveness if we do not forgive others their temporal debts that they owe us - thus tossing all into literal earthly jail when Christ said "SO shall my Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive others"...

Hint - Observing that in fact God does not toss everyone into earthly jail when they fail to forgive one another - is left as a trivial exercise for the reader.

Turns out - the Gospel is the only basis for forgiveness from God - and this is a pretty hard lesson for the OSAS group. Bob

This truth can be seen clearly in the life of David. His sin with Bathseba and Uriah had been forgiven but the sword did not leave his house. He suffered the consequences of those sins throughout his life.

The saint is promised that he "shall not come" into condemnation in regard to eternal life/heaven but is already passed from death to life (Jn. 5:25). Furthermore "believeth" is not subjunctive and therefore not presented as a condition but rather presents the continuous action as a reality not a condition.

The believers sins have all been forgiven once and for all (Heb. 10:10-17) with NO MORE REMEMBRANCE of them in regard to positional sanctification "in Christ" as they are sanctified "once and for all."

However, their sins must be dealt with on a daily basis in regard to EXPERIENCING the blessings of salvation because the EXPERIENCE OF salvation does depend upon continuance in fellowship and obedience to God's Word. We need to the EXPERIENCE of cleansing the conscience from sin in order to experience the "joy" of our salvation. David did not ask that his salvation be restored, but restore the "JOY" of his salvation - Psa. 51:10.

The Father chastens every child (Heb. 12:5-9) and this is part of God's chastening of His children - temporal punishment. Children are chastened but enemies are destroyed.