Administration of the Church Service

[saturneptune]

Many churches run them on Wednesdays, but not Sunday nights. Don't know why. Have to ask them.

That is what our church does. We are a small church, and run the van on Sunday mornings and evenings for the regular members. We only have one van. Wednesday night we have developed a ministry for kids from broken homes. We run the van early to pick up the kids, then run the van for the members, and take them home staggered also. It is the best we can do with what we have.

These kids are from parents who are on something, have rotating partners, or are in jail. The hour or so on Wednesday these gifted women who teach them is the only normal time of caring and Christians upbringing they have. It is a great ministry. On Wednesday nights, there is the opportunity to run two routes, not on Sunday, although on Sunday, a few will come to SS and church.

On visitation, we visit the parents, so far, without much luck.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I cannot think of any church growth book that begins with what Jesus taught on the Sermon on The Mount.

Um, I'll bite. Why would it? I have never understood that passage to be about church growth. Do you know someone who thinks it is?

 

[gb93433]

Um, I'll bite. Why would it? I have never understood that passage to be about church growth. Do you know someone who thinks it is?

If the church is made up of believers then it is about church growth because it is about spiritual growth in people. What Jesus taught was about relationships with people and God. When I look at the Sermon on the Mount the first thing I see is humility. To say a church can grow apart from being humble before God is making a mockery of God. Anything that can be done apart from God is to cast Him aside and not depend on Him.

 

[Don]

This is good stuff....

 

[Pastor Larry]

If the church is made up of believers then it is about church growth because it is about spiritual growth in people.

Well, I suppose in teh sense that the whole Bible is about church growth, sure. I have never seen a church growth book start with Matt 4:16 either (which, incidentally is a whole lot more applicable to church growth than the SoM). Or a lot of other passages.

I think though you misunderstand the point of church growth books. They are typically about reaching new people (doing the work of an evangelist, so to speak). The SoM is actually talking about something else.

 

[gb93433]

I think though you misunderstand the point of church growth books. They are typically about reaching new people (doing the work of an evangelist, so to speak).

I fail to see that the kind of work they promote is lasting. It seems to me to be more about methodology than Christ as the center. When I read about George Mueller, "Praying" John Hyde, Charles Spurgeon, Billy Graham, and D.L. Moody, I fail to see men who were about methodology and programs but more about filling themselves with God's presence, getting rid of sin so they are not hindered in seeing God, and seeing the face of God. They were about knowing God rather than getting numbers in the front door.

Billy Graham speak about an evangelistic effort where not many people came until people started praying and they ended staying for several weeks later.

When I read 2 Chron 7:14 I must believe that is the truth and God honors the prayers of praying people.

Simply put I have seen so many answers to prayer that I know I had absolutely nothing to do with and knew it was God while I stood in awe of what He had done.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I fail to see that the kind of work they promote is lasting. It seems to me to be more about methodology than Christ as the center.

Some are, but many are not. I don't know what books or works you have seen so I can't really comment too much.

When I read 2 Chron 7:14 I must believe that is the truth and God honors the prayers of praying people.

But 2 Chron 7:14 isn't about church growth.

I think the dichotomy between prayer and methodology is one that the Bible knows nothing about. We are to pray and work. Both are important, and methods matter. A lot of people fail in church work because they do it wrongly.

 

[annsni]

We've got a great opportunity in that we are starting a new church plant (well, it will actually be a new church campus but it's still going to be run differently than the home church). Our plan is to have the church service on Sunday and then home groups during the week. We WILL have Sunday School for the younger kids but no nursery since we'll be meeting at a hotel and the room we have for the children is in another hallway. I don't think many parents would be comfortable with their babies so far away in a public space so we'll just get used to infants crying and toddlers running around.

But our Sunday School program is going to be designed by us. We have an awesome guy from Children's Evangelical Fellowship going with us to the new church who will work with my husband to tie the children's messages into what the adults will be learning. So while the adults will be learning about the Holy Spirit on their level, the children will learn about Him on their level. I know of some other churches that do this and it's really effective but it's a lot of work. It means the pastor (my husband and whoever else will be coming in to preach) needs to plan ahead enough to give the children's ministry time to come up with their own stuff.

Oh - and the children will be in with the whole church until just before the sermon so they will be out for only about 45 minutes.

 

[nodak]

I'm sure I'll be in the minority here, and old fashioned to boot. These are just my personal opinions of what has worked for us, not something I can give a scripture quote on.

Some places we lived those little old grandmas taught the gospel clearly and effectively, but the preacher was, to be kind, lacking in Biblical knowledge. In those places, rather than cause a stink we went to SS and home, or, if there were another church with a poor SS but excellent preaching service, raced across village to the other church for preaching.

We were always of the opinion the children needed to be in church services with us. Sometimes that meant sitting way in back and sneaking out to feed a fussy baby, or taking a toddler out for a discussion of proper behavior. It did not ever mean older kids and teens sitting with their friends.

That also meant seeking churches with services that were reasonable for families. Pretty much limits the time to around an hour to an hour and a half. I don't think we older ones are adhd, but you might, because if you cannot say what you have to say in 30-40 minutes chances are my aching hips and numb ears aren't going to let me hear what you have to say anyway.

We also find the hymn sandwich style of worship worked best with little ones. Doing everything (sing, pray, listen to preaching) in sets or blocks didn't work for us.

We chose churches that figured Sunday mornings were preaching/evangelistic. Sunday nights were for discipleship and equipping the saints. Wednesday night prayer meeting was just that--praying. We attended as much as we could but were not dogmatic. Common sense intervened at a few times.

That formula is hard to find these days, so we do what we can. We attend those programs that fit into that format and just skip those that don't. With no training union or discipleship training at our church, we study independently or in other Bible studies.

I've always been a firm believer that IF a pastor is preaching the scripture rather than sermonettes for Christianettes, and IF the congregation takes their role seriously and studies also, it is safe to let someone other than the preacher teach. Those grandmas should know the truth when they teach SS. Those youth leaders should know the truth when they meet with the youth.

In other words, we avoid like the plague churches where the pastor is seen as priest or guru. We believe in the priesthood of the believer--singular--as a safeguard against heresy and false prophets.

Not everyone's cup of tea, and that's ok. Just how its done at our house.

 

[gb93433]

I think the dichotomy between prayer and methodology is one that the Bible knows nothing about. We are to pray and work. Both are important, and methods matter. A lot of people fail in church work because they do it wrongly.

I do find pray without ceasing but I do not find work without ceasing. Praying is hard work. Busyness is work but it is not always God's work. I see little in scripture that encourages Marthas but rather Marys. We can burn up energy in work without the Holy Spirit, but I cannot see how we can pray above ceiling height without the Holy Spirit. If God is mocked by our work and not glorified then it is our work and not His.

 

[Tom Butler]

I've always been a firm believer that IF a pastor is preaching the scripture rather than sermonettes for Christianettes......

So they can beat the Pentecostals when they go out and et?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I do find pray without ceasing but I do not find work without ceasing.

But don't you find that there is a strong emphasis on going? Jesus said, "Go into all the world and make disciples." He did not say, "Stay home and pray that disciples will be made." Paul said, "Do the work of an evangelist." He did not say, "Pray for evangelism."

Why did Paul travel all over the place at risk of life and limb rather than just staying home and praying? Because work is necessaary.

Busyness is work but it is not always God's work. I see little in scripture that encourages Marthas but rather Marys. We can burn up energy in work without the Holy Spirit, but I cannot see how we can pray above ceiling height without the Holy Spirit. If God is mocked by our work and not glorified then it is our work and not His.

All that is true, and none of it is relevant since no one here is encouraging work without prayer.

My point is that both go together.

Think of Paul's request: Devote yourselves to prayer, keeping alert in it with an attitude of thanksgiving; 3 praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; 4 that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak (Colossians 4:2-4).

He is saying, "You pray for me that I may work effectively." He goes on to talk about the way they work in their speech.

So clearly, prayer and work are not enemies. They are mates. They go together. God chooses to work through prayer and work both. He does not work apart from either in most cases.

 

[gb93433]

But don't you find that there is a strong emphasis on going? Jesus said, "Go into all the world and make disciples." He did not say, "Stay home and pray that disciples will be made." Paul said, "Do the work of an evangelist." He did not say, "Pray for evangelism."

I find that there is a going, but more important we must be one with God at all times. There are times when Jesus gave specific instructions to not go and other times to go.

All that is true, and none of it is relevant since no one here is encouraging work without prayer.

Of course that should never be the case. However I think we would find in history when the church was the strongest so was their prayer life. How can one stand strong with no confidence in God?

My point is that both go together.

I think that to be in union with God prayer must come first.

Think of Paul's request: Devote yourselves to prayer, keeping alert in it with an attitude of thanksgiving; 3 praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; 4 that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak (Colossians 4:2-4).

I think this is a case of where prayer came first.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I find that there is a going, but more important we must be one with God at all times.

I know of no biblical basis to say it's "more important." The Bible does not present that priority, so far as I can tell. It is prior (as in before), but not isolated. They are both equally important. You simply do them in a particular order.

 

[gb93433]

I know of no biblical basis to say it's "more important." The Bible does not present that priority, so far as I can tell. It is prior (as in before), but not isolated. They are both equally important. You simply do them in a particular order.

Try praying with God and going without God. They yield a very different result.

In Col 4:2-4, prayer preceded the speaking. Prayer should always precede the doing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Try praying with God and going without God. They yield a very different result.

In Col 4:2-4, prayer preceded the speaking. Prayer should always precede the doing.

Thanks for repeating what I just said.

 

[saturneptune]

Thanks for repeating what I just said.

Thats twice you said that.

 

[PastorGreg]

I'm sure I'll be in the minority here, and old fashioned to boot. These are just my personal opinions of what has worked for us, not something I can give a scripture quote on.

Some places we lived those little old grandmas taught the gospel clearly and effectively, but the preacher was, to be kind, lacking in Biblical knowledge. In those places, rather than cause a stink we went to SS and home, or, if there were another church with a poor SS but excellent preaching service, raced across village to the other church for preaching.

We were always of the opinion the children needed to be in church services with us. Sometimes that meant sitting way in back and sneaking out to feed a fussy baby, or taking a toddler out for a discussion of proper behavior. It did not ever mean older kids and teens sitting with their friends.

That also meant seeking churches with services that were reasonable for families. Pretty much limits the time to around an hour to an hour and a half. I don't think we older ones are adhd, but you might, because if you cannot say what you have to say in 30-40 minutes chances are my aching hips and numb ears aren't going to let me hear what you have to say anyway.

We also find the hymn sandwich style of worship worked best with little ones. Doing everything (sing, pray, listen to preaching) in sets or blocks didn't work for us.

We chose churches that figured Sunday mornings were preaching/evangelistic. Sunday nights were for discipleship and equipping the saints. Wednesday night prayer meeting was just that--praying. We attended as much as we could but were not dogmatic. Common sense intervened at a few times.

That formula is hard to find these days, so we do what we can. We attend those programs that fit into that format and just skip those that don't. With no training union or discipleship training at our church, we study independently or in other Bible studies.

I've always been a firm believer that IF a pastor is preaching the scripture rather than sermonettes for Christianettes, and IF the congregation takes their role seriously and studies also, it is safe to let someone other than the preacher teach. Those grandmas should know the truth when they teach SS. Those youth leaders should know the truth when they meet with the youth.

In other words, we avoid like the plague churches where the pastor is seen as priest or guru. We believe in the priesthood of the believer--singular--as a safeguard against heresy and false prophets.

Not everyone's cup of tea, and that's ok. Just how its done at our house.

I know, long quote, but felt it all needed to be included. This is an example of so much unbiblical, self-focused thinking that drives many professed believers today. The problem is in the first paragraph. Not biblical, but it works for us. Wow! Verrrry thin ice there. God is about the local church. He expects His children to be a part of one, to be committed to it, to be under its authority, to be accountable to it, to be faithful to it.... The issue is "What's biblical," not "What works for us."

 

[Don]

I know, long quote, but felt it all needed to be included. This is an example of so much unbiblical, self-focused thinking that drives many professed believers today. The problem is in the first paragraph. Not biblical, but it works for us. Wow! Verrrry thin ice there. God is about the local church. He expects His children to be a part of one, to be committed to it, to be under its authority, to be accountable to it, to be faithful to it.... The issue is "What's biblical," not "What works for us."

My original question was basically, how often should we meet?

In meeting with your post, what does scripture say?

 

[rbell]

I know, long quote, but felt it all needed to be included. This is an example of so much unbiblical, self-focused thinking that drives many professed believers today. The problem is in the first paragraph. Not biblical, but it works for us. Wow! Verrrry thin ice there. God is about the local church. He expects His children to be a part of one, to be committed to it, to be under its authority, to be accountable to it, to be faithful to it.... The issue is "What's biblical," not "What works for us."

OK, not sure I follow you.

If the Bible tells us the principles...and we folllow the principles, but get there using differing specifics (that don't violate God's principles)...then what's the problem?

Or am I missing your point?