Qualifications for Pastor

[steaver]

"What God has joined together let no man put asunder.

This moves us to another area to explore.

What if God did not join the two together?

What constitutes a marriage that God has joined together?

There are forced marriages. Are these "what God has joined together"? If not then is it ok for these to get a divorce if they suddenly find themselves at liberty?

We have talked about marriage being a vow spoken between a man and a woman to God. What about two marrying who are atheist and do not make a vow to God? Are these two still two whom "God has joined together"?

How about a divorced person remarrying another person while their first spouse is still alive? Is this second marriage considered "what God has joined together"?

Can we apply the scripture "what God has joined together" to ALL marriage scenarios throughout history and around the world that are between a man and a woman?

 

[DHK]

This moves us to another area to explore.

What if God did not join the two together?

What constitutes a marriage that God has joined together?

There are not "what if's." One doesn't make a vow before man and God, wake up the next morning, and say: "Ooops I made a mistake."

We have a habit of basing everything on our culture. Our culture is far from what Biblical culture was when marriages were arranged, and still are in eastern nations. Often a woman does not see her husband until the day of the marriage. For her to depart from her husband is unthinkable. However, divorce in this situation is far less than in western countries. The reason is that the parents have looked for a spouse for their child (on both sides--bride and groom). They know what is best for their children, and are not blinded by emotion--"falling in love." They use their intellect not their emotion, and thus the marriages work out. Arranged marriages have greater odds of working out than ones that are not. In the Bible marriages were arranged.

There are forced marriages. Are these "what God has joined together"? If not then is it ok for these to get a divorce if they suddenly find themselves at liberty?

Your "forced marriages" seems to be a moot point. See explanation above.

We have talked about marriage being a vow spoken between a man and a woman to God. What about two marrying who are atheist and do not make a vow to God? Are these two still two whom "God has joined together"?

It is still recognized by the government. And the government is a God-ordained institution.

How about a divorced person remarrying another person while their first spouse is still alive? Is this second marriage considered "what God has joined together"?

What about it? Can you define sin? Is there wickedness in the land? Is there wickedness recognized by our governments that is not recognized by God. Is the government going to throw you in jail because you have an affair with your neighbour? Does that make it right or wrong in the sight of God? C'mon, can't your common sense figure these things out?

Can we apply the scripture "what God has joined together" to ALL marriage scenarios throughout history and around the world that are between a man and a woman?

It was Jesus who quoted the words from the OT.
Do you believe him or not?
If you don't believe, you have a problem.
If you do believe him, then find out what he meant.

 

[steaver]

There are not "what if's." One doesn't make a vow before man and God, wake up the next morning, and say: "Ooops I made a mistake."

You had brought this up before and it really has nothing to do with my questions...

What if God did not join the two together?

What constitutes a marriage that God has joined together?

We have a habit of basing everything on our culture. Our culture is far from what Biblical culture was when marriages were arranged, and still are in eastern nations. Often a woman does not see her husband until the day of the marriage. For her to depart from her husband is unthinkable. However, divorce in this situation is far less than in western countries. The reason is that the parents have looked for a spouse for their child (on both sides--bride and groom). They know what is best for their children, and are not blinded by emotion--"falling in love." They use their intellect not their emotion, and thus the marriages work out. Arranged marriages have greater odds of working out than ones that are not. In the Bible marriages were arranged.

I do not have any facts to either support or not support these "reasons" you put forth or any facts to support my own "reasons", but I would be more inclined to believe that the reason these marriages have a low divorce rate (if any) is because of ....

1) the stigma that has been placed on divorce as an absolute no no in this society. (even in this country it was once a huge no, no and two just stayed together no matter what, even if that meant a beating unto death do you part, literally)

2) the woman has no option of divorce

3) the man needs no option of divorce because he has the option of having a wife and mistresses and this is quietly accepted, the man has no need for a divorce because he can have his cake and icing at the same time

4) the man needs no option of divorce because he can treat his wife anyway he pleases, even keeping her like a slave if he likes, and society turns a blind eye.

Your "forced marriages" seems to be a moot point. See explanation above.

"Arranged marriage" can be either forced or desired. My point remains valid.

It is still recognized by the government. And the government is a God-ordained institution.

By this answer you claim that God will recognize all marriages between any two people as "what God has joined together" regardless of their beliefs, or sex, or any other factors as long as the government has made it lawful.

What about it? Can you define sin? Is there wickedness in the land? Is there wickedness recognized by our governments that is not recognized by God. Is the government going to throw you in jail because you have an affair with your neighbour? Does that make it right or wrong in the sight of God? C'mon, can't your common sense figure these things out?

Now you flip back to a "God does NOT recognize" certain government laws. Do you see how you are having trouble defining "what God has joined together"?

Do you want to go with the 1) "government is ordained by God so God recognizes all the marriages as joined by Himself"

Or do you want to go with the 2) "God does NOT recognize all government laws and therefore not all marriages are what God has joined together"?

It was Jesus who quoted the words from the OT.
Do you believe him or not?
If you don't believe, you have a problem.
If you do believe him, then find out what he meant.

I know Jesus was the one who quoted the words from the OT.

I do believe him.

I don't think I have a problem, but this is why I bring up this topic up for debate.

I do believe Him and I am attempting to find out what he meant by delliberating this on this board. But so far what I have gotten from your pov is that your not sure yourself what it is that constitutes a marriage joined by God. On one hand you say whatever the government agrees to and then in the next breath you say not all that the government agrees to is recognized by God.

Maybe someone else could join in this conversation and tell us both if ALL marriages are joined together by God? That is "ALL" marriages, is it all those recognized by government?

Another question would be DOES the government have to be involved and does paper work or legal documents have to be involved? Can two go before family and friends and vow before them and God as witnesses to be each other's spouse for life? Without any ordained preacher or government official at all, God being their ordained preacher just like He was for Adam and Eve?

And where is all this written in the scriptures?

I think we are learning that this marriage and divorce issue is not so "black and white". There are many, many variables that make it terribly difficult to fit it into a one size fits all.

I believe we can see from this debate between brother DHK and myself that these issues are to broad and complex to make a judgment without considering the circumstances surrounding each individual situation.

Moses and Paul were both forced to consider these issues and find solutions that would honor God's will. Both God's will for marriage as well as God's will for mercy, justice and love. I believe God intrusted this duty to His pastors, allowing them to preach both "unto death do you part" as well as "God has called you to peace, neither do I condemn you".

I appreceate the debate brother. It has been very helpful. God bless you!

 

[DHK]

Quite frankly, Steaver, I am finding this a fruitless discussion because you won't use your common sense. I refuse to go around in circles with you.
You want to bring the government in and take it out at your convenience.
You want to bring God in and take him out at out your convenience.

Gay marriages are recognized by the government in many states and other governments, but not by God.
Marriage, per se, is a God-ordained institution recognized by both man's law and by God.
Divorce itself has been condemned by God.

That is where I stand. I need say nothing more. The rest is common sense. I suggest you stop looking for loopholes.

 

[Don]

Just my two cents: I disagree with steaver.

As an example, in the Old Testament the people wanted a king. It wasn't what God wanted, but they asked; so He gave them Saul. And that turned out rather unhappily.

It's kind of like the question, why does God allow bad things to happen? Do we really think God wanted Job to suffer? Or that He used it for a greater, glorious purpose?

So--do you think God wants same-sex marriages? Or that He's allowing us to have our way, for a greater, glorious purpose?

Which, in a somewhat convoluted way, means He isn't "recognizing" same-sex marriages; He's "allowing" them.

 

[steaver]

Quite frankly, Steaver, I am finding this a fruitless discussion because you won't use your common sense. I refuse to go around in circles with you.

God bless. Personally I have benefited form our discourse. I believe we have both presented our best argument and let the jury make up their own minds.

You want to bring the government in and take it out at your convenience.

Ah, I believe that was my argument as to what you were doing. Different times you would say "God recognizes government laws" and then say "God does not recognize government laws". I was the one trying to get you to pick one or the other.

You want to bring God in and take him out at out your convenience.

No, I don't think that is what I want to do. I was looking for common sense reasoning as to why we should say "God has joined" ALL marriages. I don't think that He has or we would have to say that He has joined together gay marriages.

I believe what we need to say is that God has joined together those marriages that were sought after His will and were lawful under His law (no government that God has ordained is allowed to override God's law or make up their own that go against God's law). Government decrees are not always God's decrees and we need to be sure to measure everything against scripture rather than trying to make marriage itself an all encompassing "joined together by God" assumption.

Remember, when Jesus said "what God has joined together, let no man put asunder" He was speaking to the Jews who ALL made their vow of marriage before God and it was between two eligible persons by God's law. I don't think He had gay marriages in mind, or even marriages by force, or illegitimate marriages of two previously divorced persons, or illegitimate marriages between brothers and sisters after His command.

Gay marriages are recognized by the government in many states and other governments, but not by God.

You see? Here you take government out saying it does not matter, God does not recognize the marriage.

Then when i asked you about two atheist who the state marry who does not believe in God nor makes any vow to God you say....

DHK;
It is still recognized by the government. And the government is a God-ordained institution.

I don't want to take government in and out at convenience. I want marriage defined under God's law and those that do not measure up, even if it is said law by God's ordained government, to be rebuked and viewed as illegitimate.

Marriage, per se, is a God-ordained institution recognized by both man's law and by God.

I agree, this is fact. But when God's ordained institution perverts God's definition of marriage then we should agree to reject that perverted man-made law.

Now, God has no law of divorce. So where does that leave man's law of divorce?

Divorce itself has been condemned by God.

I don't know if "condemned" is the right word. I think rejected or not recognized as valid is a better way to put it. Jesus said the sin would be the adultery that would come out of the said "divorce".

That is where I stand. I need say nothing more. The rest is common sense. I suggest you stop looking for loopholes.

"Loopholes"?

No, this is about sola-scripture verses opinion. Both are part of being a Christian and making disciples. However, "thus sayeth the Lord" and "thus sayeth me" need to be defined and presented clearly to our students.

God bless you brother, it has been a good conversation! :wavey:

 

[steaver]

Just my two cents: I disagree with steaver.

As an example, in the Old Testament the people wanted a king. It wasn't what God wanted, but they asked; so He gave them Saul. And that turned out rather unhappily.

It's kind of like the question, why does God allow bad things to happen? Do we really think God wanted Job to suffer? Or that He used it for a greater, glorious purpose?

So--do you think God wants same-sex marriages? Or that He's allowing us to have our way, for a greater, glorious purpose?

Which, in a somewhat convoluted way, means He isn't "recognizing" same-sex marriages; He's "allowing" them.

Are you sure you are in the right thread?

We have not been discussing "recognizing" verses "allowing" or anything about "greater purposes".

You lost me brother.