Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

[thegospelgeek]

Certainly. And I have absolutely no reason to doubt your genuine conversion therefore I think you will definitely wind up in heaven whether you are sure you will or not.

What this thread is about is KNOWING that you will make it to heaven. It is not about assurance of present salvation. It is about assurance that you will absolutely be in heaven one day.

Do you admit that you do not KNOW that you are going to make it?

Now keep in mind that I know that you do not believe in works salvation. I understand very well what FWB's believe.

What I am asking you is- Can you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will be in heaven with Christ one day? Do you KNOW that you will not be in hell for eternity?

Well, I'll make this as loving as possible, as you say the Arminian can not know beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is also true that the Calvinist can not know either. Whether I am Calvinist or Arminian does not change what is true, only what we beleive to be true.

 

[drfuss]

You are not reading my posts thoroughly I think.

I have said that I know that someone who believes you can lose your salvation can have ASSURANCE that he is saved- now.

What he CANNOT know is that he will make it to heaven in the future.
He cannot know this because of two uncertainties.
1. Because he does not know when he will die.
2. Because he does not know that he will endure in faith until the day he dies.

Every person who believes one can lose his salvation believes that HE can lose his salvation. He does not know FOR CERTAIN that he will not so he CANNOT KNOW that heaven is his home.

This is not about assurance. It's about whether or not a person who believes he can lose his salvation can honestly say-

"I KNOW that I will be in heaven one day!"

Help me to understand how ANYONE can KNOW they are going to be in heaven if they think it is possible for them to lose their salvation.

You apparently are not reading My posts thoroughly.

I am saying there is the same amount of uncertainty for one who does believes in eternal security as there is for one who does not believe in eternal security.

In general, those who believe in eternal secuirty, believe that a person who stops believing was not a True Christian in the first place. The uncertainty comes from how does an ES Christian really know that he is a True Christian now when others who apparently stopped believing were not True Christians then?

In a similar way, the uncertainty for a Non ES Believer comes from if he will continue to be a believer.

Both ES Christians and Non ES Christians can see about the same amount of uncertainty in the other's beliefs. However, in both cases, each is sure of his own continued salvation by faith.

By the way, most Arminians do not believe a Christian can lose their salvation. Only the Weslayan Arminians believe a Christian can lose their salvation. However, all Arminians do believe a Christian can forfeit their salvation.

 

[drfuss]

Luke writes:
"Help me to understand how ANYONE can KNOW they are going to be in heaven if they think it is possible for them to lose their salvation."

Help me to understand how ANYONE can KNOW they are going to be in heaven if they think that someone who believes he is a Christian and later stops believing, was not a True Christian in the first place. Under this belief, how does anyone know that he is really a True Christian now?

The answer in both beliefs is by faith. Those who do not believe in ES are just as sure of their continued salvation as those who do.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Perhaps you missed my point.

How do you know that you are not one of those who believes now that he is a True Christian, but in the future you will not stop trusting Christ which would mean you just thought you were a True Christian?

The Holy Spirit confirms this supernaturally. Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. It's not a hope so salvation,but a know so salvation. I believe in the eternal security of the true believer and the insecurity of the make believer.

 

[drfuss]

The Holy Spirit confirms this supernaturally. Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. It's not a hope so salvation,but a know so salvation. I believe in the eternal security of the true believer and the insecurity of the make believer.

Your first sentence is a good answer for both ES Christians and Non ES Christians. Apparently, you are under the mistaken impression that Arminians have a hope so salvation. This is not true. Arminians also have a know so salvation.

Those who have a hope so salvation, are not Arminians and probably not even real Christians.

I have attended a SBC church for over 17 years which believes in eternal security. I have not seen in any SBC literature that Arminians have a hope so salvation. However, I have seen it implied. They wisely don't put it in writing because it is so easily shown not to be true.

I suggest that you go to a website of a large Non ES denomination website and check it out for yourself. This type misrepresentation of
Arminians has been floating around the ES world for many years. However, with the easy availability of denomination websites, it is now easy to check out for yourself.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Your first sentence is a good answer for both ES Christians and Non ES Christians. Apparently, you are under the mistaken impression that Arminians have a hope so salvation. This is not true. Arminians also have a know so salvation.

Baloney ,if one believes they might fall away in the end...thats not "Know so" salvation...thats probation "hope so". They can be born again but feel they cannot be sure about their final destination.....their still secure weather they feel like it or not.

 

[drfuss]

Baloney ,if one believes they might fall away in the end...thats not "Know so" salvation...thats probation "hope so". They can be born again but feel they cannot be sure about their final destination.....their still secure weather they feel like it or not.

If one falls away in the end, ES says that they were not really a TRUE Christian, they just thought they were.

Arminians are just as sure of their continued salvation as ES Christians are sure that they are TRUE Christians now and will not fall away.

As I said before, the practical difference between ES and Arminians is a matter of definitions, terminoloy and a play on words.

Again, I suggest that you go to a respected Non-ES source and check it out. Some ES sources have misrepresented Arminian beliefs for years.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Again, I suggest that you go to a respected Non-ES source and check it out. Some ES sources have misrepresented Arminian beliefs for years.

The bible not good enough?

 

[drfuss]

The bible not good enough?

The question of this thread is:

Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

The answer is that all Arminians (as well as all ES believers) can know that heaven is their home.

The scripture debate on eternal security has been going on for hundreds of years with both sides still claiming to be right. Nothing will be gained by continuing that debate here. In practical applications, the difference is just a matter of definitions and terminology. You can say it your way and I can say it my way.

Peace.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, I'll make this as loving as possible, as you say the Arminian can not know beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is also true that the Calvinist can not know either. Whether I am Calvinist or Arminian does not change what is true, only what we beleive to be true.

If the Calvinist interpretation of perseverance is accurate then he certainly can know beyond a shadow of a doubt. God has told him that he will go to heaven.

But if the Arminian is correct God has NOT told him that he will go to heaven. God has only told him that you can be sure that you will go to heaven presently.

The Calvinist is assured of future salvation.

The Arminian has no ASSURANCE of future salvation, as best I can see it.

All I want to know is this:

Is it accurate to state that Arminianism offers NO real assurance of heaven?

 

[Luke2427]

You apparently are not reading My posts thoroughly.

I am saying there is the same amount of uncertainty for one who does believes in eternal security as there is for one who does not believe in eternal security.

In general, those who believe in eternal secuirty, believe that a person who stops believing was not a True Christian in the first place. The uncertainty comes from how does an ES Christian really know that he is a True Christian now when others who apparently stopped believing were not True Christians then?

In a similar way, the uncertainty for a Non ES Believer comes from if he will continue to be a believer.

Both ES Christians and Non ES Christians can see about the same amount of uncertainty in the other's beliefs. However, in both cases, each is sure of his own continued salvation by faith.

By the way, most Arminians do not believe a Christian can lose their salvation. Only the Weslayan Arminians believe a Christian can lose their salvation. However, all Arminians do believe a Christian can forfeit their salvation.

But the Christian, Calvinist or Arminian, bases his assurance on the new nature he possesses, the fact that he loves the brethren and has the inner witness of the spirit.

The Arminian observes these evidences in his own life and he says- I KNOW that I am saved for now.
The Calvinist observes these evidences in his own life and says- I KNOW that I am saved forever.

I do not understand why you insist that the Calvinist has no assurance of his FUTURE salvation.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke writes:
"Help me to understand how ANYONE can KNOW they are going to be in heaven if they think it is possible for them to lose their salvation."

Help me to understand how ANYONE can KNOW they are going to be in heaven if they think that someone who believes he is a Christian and later stops believing, was not a True Christian in the first place. Under this belief, how does anyone know that he is really a True Christian now?

The answer in both beliefs is by faith. Those who do not believe in ES are just as sure of their continued salvation as those who do.

This is not true drfuss.

Assurance is not based on this idea of having to wait to see if you made it to the end to know if your salvation was ever genuine to begin with.

The Scripture tells us how we can know that we are saved in I John. There, there are many proofs of genuine conversion for the Christian. Loving the brethren, keeping the commandments, inner witness of the Spirit, etc...

This is how ANYONE knows they are saved- Calvinist or Arminian.

The Calvinist sees those evidences and says- I have been genuinely born again and will most assuredly be in heaven with my Savior one day! He will see to it!

The Arminian sees those evidences and says- I have been genuinely born again and if I don't lose (forfeit, etc...) my salvation by ceasing to trust Christ then I will go to heaven one day! But since I may indeed do this I cannot KNOW that I will go to heaven.

Therefore, the Arminian cannot preach to sinners- COME to Christ today and be saved and you will most assuredly miss the fires of hell and without a doubt one day arrive in Gloryland!

I am not attacking any Arminian. I am asking for Arminians to help me understand how they have any assurance of heaven (not present salvation), or to admit that they really don't have any nor do they offer any to their converts.

If the latter is the case, then perhaps it would be more honest for them to preach- Come and be saved and you have strong grounds to hope that you will be in heaven but your future salvation is not certain- but at least your chances of heaven increase exponentially if you repent.

Please do not get angry with me (many have in this discussion before). I am sincerely trying not to be inflammatory. Help me to understand your position.

 

[Luke2427]

The Holy Spirit confirms this supernaturally. Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. It's not a hope so salvation,but a know so salvation. I believe in the eternal security of the true believer and the insecurity of the make believer.

Excellent way to put it!

 

[Jedi Knight]

The question of this thread is:

Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

The answer is that all Arminians (as well as all ES believers) can know that heaven is their home.

I saw the question very clearly,but you seem to try to build a case that really does not make sense.

 

[drfuss]

But the Christian, Calvinist or Arminian, bases his assurance on the new nature he possesses, the fact that he loves the brethren and has the inner witness of the spirit.

The Arminian observes these evidences in his own life and he says- I KNOW that I am saved for now. and have faith that through God's keeping power, I will continue trusting in Christ. However, if I choose to stop trusting in Christ, I can forfeit my salvation.


The Calvinist observes these evidences in his own life and says- I KNOW that I am saved forever. if I am a true Christian now. By faith I believe I am.


I do not understand why you insist that the Calvinist has no assurance of his FUTURE salvation. I did not say the Calvinist has no assurance of salvation. The ES Christian has the same assurance of salvation as the non ES Christian, both by faith. They only use different definitions and terminology

I suggest that you step back from your ES training and look objectively at what I really said. ES Christians are reluctant to consider the Arminians position because they have been wrongly taught that their salvation will be in doubt if they don't use the ES terminology and definitions.

 

[drfuss]

This is not true drfuss.

Assurance is not based on this idea of having to wait to see if you made it to the end to know if your salvation was ever genuine to begin with.

The Scripture tells us how we can know that we are saved in I John. There, there are many proofs of genuine conversion for the Christian. Loving the brethren, keeping the commandments, inner witness of the Spirit, etc...

This is how ANYONE knows they are saved- Calvinist or Arminian.

The Calvinist sees those evidences and says- I have been genuinely born again and will most assuredly be in heaven with my Savior one day! He will see to it!

The Arminian sees those evidences and says- I have been genuinely born again and if I don't lose (forfeit, etc...) my salvation by ceasing to trust Christ then I will go to heaven one day! But since I may indeed do this I cannot KNOW that I will go to heaven.

Therefore, the Arminian cannot preach to sinners- COME to Christ today and be saved and you will most assuredly miss the fires of hell and without a doubt one day arrive in Gloryland!

I am not attacking any Arminian. I am asking for Arminians to help me understand how they have any assurance of heaven (not present salvation), or to admit that they really don't have any nor do they offer any to their converts.

If the latter is the case, then perhaps it would be more honest for them to preach- Come and be saved and you have strong grounds to hope that you will be in heaven but your future salvation is not certain- but at least your chances of heaven increase exponentially if you repent.

Please do not get angry with me (many have in this discussion before). I am sincerely trying not to be inflammatory. Help me to understand your position.

The Arminian assurance of heaven is just as sure as the ES Christian assurance of heaven. The ES Christian assurance of heaven is based on faith that he is a True Christian now and therefore will not stop trusting in Christ. The Arminian assurance of heaven is based on faith that God will keep him trusting in Christ unless he later makes a decision to forfeit his salvation. A Christian who makes a decision to accept God's free grace can also make a decision to forfeit it.

Both depend on faith in Christ for salvation and in His keeping power. Both use different terminology and definitions to say the same thing. It appears that your long time ES teaching will not allow you to see the Arminian position. I have been in a SBC ES church for over 17 years and can see both sides of the issue.

I see no reason to continue this round and round discussion. Thank you for your inputs and responses.

drfuss signing off on this thread.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust in Jesus

I wasn’t called to tell people they have an assurance of heaven. I am called to tell people to trust in Jesus for salvation. I wouldn’t want to live a life not trusting in Jesus. The scripture teaches that it is those who believe that will be saved. If I am wrong well those who are to be saved they will be saved no matter what and I will not regret my life because I encouraged people to believe. If I am right then we would have changed many lives because we taught people to trust in Jesus. I would hate to be wrong and tell someone they will be in heaven and they have assurance of this and then they face Jesus and Jesus tell them I never knew you go away you evil doer.

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm in late to this thread, which I have found interesting and educational.

I have had a different view of losing one's salvation. In this thread, it seems that one may forfeit salvation only if he ceases to believe. I suppose that is consistent. If one may will to believe for salvation, then he may will not to believe any more. Non-Cal Baptists who hold to ES are inconsistent here, holding that one may freely choose salvation, but may not freely unchoose it.

My view has also included the question of persistent sin. Don't Arminians believe that one may sin away his salvation? That's what I always thought. I have counseled people who say they have not stopped believing, but because of sin they are no longer saved. And if that's the case, how many sins does it take? At what point does one sin enough to cross the line from being saved to being lost again? Or, as I'm reading in this thread, does it make any difference?

Now, to be clear, I hold to ES. I believe our salvation is not dependent on us, but on Christ alone. We are "kept by God." I hold that one who is truly saved will not unbelieve down the road.

 

[Winman]

Faith is not what saves you, it is Jesus that saves. Faith will bring you to Christ, but that coming to Christ does not make you spiritually alive. It is when you come to Jesus that he gives you everlasting life. Jesus is the only one who has power to give us life. And it is everlasting, so by definition it cannot end. You cannot be unborn once you are born again, and if it is everlasting life you cannot die.

Faith is not some magical force and it is not a feeling. I can demonstrate that right now.

If I asked you right now to name three people you trust, I would bet almost immediately three persons would pop into your mind. You might say your spouse, and your father and mother. Did you have to have a feeling to answer this question? NO. And I don't need a feeling for this, I can name whom I trust easily, almost without thought, and certainly without feeling.

And the opposite is true. If I asked you to name a person you do not trust, you would automatically say Barack Obama! :tongue3:

That was a joke, but you get the idea. Faith is not a feeling.

FAITH IS DEPENDENCE OR RELIANCE BASED ON KNOWLEDGE BASED ON A RELATIONSHIP

You trust your spouse or parents because of your personal relationship with them. You know them to be faithful to you from experience. You don't have to work this faith up, you don't have to continue to work to maintain this faith, faith comes naturally from having a personal relationship with another person.

And lack of faith is just the same. If you have a family member who is known to lie or steal, from experince you do not trust them. It is not a feeling, your faith is a natural result of having a personal relationship with them.

Now, how can you have a personal relationship with Jesus? How can you get to know him in a personal way so that you can trust him? Well, the most important thing you can do is read the scriptures, because they reveal who Jesus is.

Jesus said that he would not cast out anyone who comes to him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Now, I know for an absolute fact that I came to Jesus. I came to him in sincere prayer and asked him to forgive all my sins and give me everlasting life.

Now, my only way of having assurance can be on whether I believe Jesus to be honest. Jesus said that if I come to him, that in no way would he cast me out.

Can I believe this? Did Jesus ever lie? Would he mislead me?

The only way I can know if Jesus lied or misled me is to read the scriptures, to get to know Him.

Do the scriptures show Jesus as very loving and merciful, and desiring to save persons from their sins? YES.

Do the scriptures ever show Jesus disappointing anyone? Did he turn away the blind, or the lame, or the lepers who came to Him? NO.

So, the more I read the scriptures, the more I am convinced that Jesus is the very Son of God who cannot lie. He will never lie to me or anyone else. He does not give insincere invitations, if he says "come unto me" he means it. And when he promised that he would not cast me out under any circumstances, then I can know and rest fully assured that I will be saved.

And the best part of all, is the more time you spend in the scriptures learning of Jesus, getting to know him personally, the more your faith will grow. You will not need to work it up, you will not need to work to maintain this faith. It will come naturally, just as your faith grows in a faithful person like your spouse, parents, or brothers and sisters. Through getting to know them and experience with them, your faith will grow naturally.

So, I KNOW I am saved. I know I came to Jesus, and I know he will never cast me out.

 

[Luke2427]

The Arminian assurance of heaven is just as sure as the ES Christian assurance of heaven. The ES Christian assurance of heaven is based on faith that he is a True Christian now and therefore will not stop trusting in Christ. The Arminian assurance of heaven is based on faith that God will keep him trusting in Christ unless he later makes a decision to forfeit his salvation. A Christian who makes a decision to accept God's free grace can also make a decision to forfeit it.

Both depend on faith in Christ for salvation and in His keeping power. Both use different terminology and definitions to say the same thing. It appears that your long time ES teaching will not allow you to see the Arminian position. I have been in a SBC ES church for over 17 years and can see both sides of the issue.

I see no reason to continue this round and round discussion. Thank you for your inputs and responses.

drfuss signing off on this thread.

Thank you for responding in this thread. I wish that you would linger a while longer because I don't feel I have gotten a response from you on the crux of this issue.

All I want, really, is an answer to this question:

Can an Arminian, based on his doctrine, KNOW that he will be in heaven ONE DAY?

You keep talking about assurance of salvation, and I have admitted that Arminians absolutely can have assurance of present salvation. It is assurance of FUTURE salvation that this thread questions.

God bless you whether you respond or not and thanks for your input.:godisgood: