Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

[RAdam]

Excellent job, gospel geek. You have totally exposed the falsehood of the straight calvinistic perserverance teachings.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Excellent job, gospel geek. You have totally exposed the falsehood of the straight calvinistic perserverance teachings.

I really don't think I have exposed anything except that maybe we all may have a bit of misunderstanding in us.

 

[RAdam]

The point I was trying to make was you have showed that, when carried out to its logical conclusion, we must see that the bible does not teach that all of God's people will perservere in the sense that the straight calvinist teaches.

 

[thegospelgeek]

The point I was trying to make was you have showed that, when carried out to its logical conclusion, we must see that the bible does not teach that all of God's people will perservere in the sense that the straight calvinist teaches.

I understand your meaning and thank you for the kind response. It's just that I really do not like the "I am right and you are not" attitudes that so many of us have. I guess that's just a part of our human nature that we need to overcome. If the debate between Calvinist/Arminians, Preterist/Futurist, and Dispy/Non-Dispy were as simple as most of us present it as, then there would be no debate. Many scholars much more educated and learned than I have debated these issuse to no avail. We all must do as best we can and serve Christ. There are many points in calvinism that I do not understand and some I disagree with completely however, I hope to see them all in Heaven as we worship our savior in harmony.

 

[Winman]

I don't believe a Christian has to persevere. When Jesus saves you, it is a done deal. You have passed from death to life, you are saved now.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

When you trust Jesus for salvation, he saves you once and for all. You do not have to keep coming back over and over, you do not have to persevere.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[jbh28]

What is meant by "persevere"?

 

[thegospelgeek]

I don't believe a Christian has to persevere. When Jesus saves you, it is a done deal. You have passed from death to life, you are saved now.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

When you trust Jesus for salvation, he saves you once and for all. You do not have to keep coming back over and over, you do not have to persevere.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Just curious:
How would you classify the person I descibed earlier? Still saved by the blood, never really saved, or saved but backsilden and out of God's will but God will bring him back. I am not intrested in debating you but trying to get a better understanding of my Cavinist Brothers and Sisters.

 

[thegospelgeek]

What is meant by "persevere"?

I can't speak for everyone, but in general on the BB, persevere is used as one keeping there salvation while presevation is God keeping one's salvation. I don't think that is a good definition but appears to be the one used on this forum.

 

[jbh28]

I can't speak for everyone, but in general on the BB, persevere is used as one keeping there salvation while presevation is God keeping one's salvation. I don't think that is a good definition but appears to be the one used on this forum.

thanks, but,
I was asking in regards to what does it mean to persevere. What is the difference between one that does persevere and one that doesn't. Is it a lack of faith, lack of good works...

I know many Calvinists that would say they persevere because God is keeping them, not because they are keeping themselves. That might be a key difference between the Arminian and Calvinists definition of persevere. My question is what does it mean when they say someone has persevered.

 

[Winman]

What is meant by "persevere"?

I guess that depends on who you ask. I understand it as maintaining faith.

Where a lot of folks go wrong is trying to maintain faith in their own faith, I hope you understand what I mean by that.

We can think that we must always have faith and never fear. When we do fear, we are convinced we do not have faith. We try to work it up, but the harder you try the worse it gets.

This is looking at one's own self. This is looking at our faithfulness. This is looking the wrong direction. We must forget about ourselves and look only at Jesus. When we do that we will not doubt, because Jesus can never fail.

Faith is trust based on knowledge. If I asked you to name a person you trust, you can easily do that. You might say your mother or father, your spouse, or a brother or sister. You don't have to work up this faith, you KNOW you trust them. Your feelings do not even enter the equation.

Faith is not a feeling. It is a knowledge based on a relationship with someone else. You trust your parents because you KNOW they love you and will always be faithful.

And lack of trust is based on lack of knowledge. Suppose a complete stranger came up to you and asked to borrow your car. What would you say?

You would probably say something like this:

"I'm sorry mister, I don't really know you, so I am not going to loan you my car."

We don't trust the guy because we don't know him. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how you feel.

We trust Jesus by reading the scriptures and getting to know him. Prayer helps as well, but our best source is the scriptures. When we read the scriptures we learn that Jesus is God and cannot lie. He is forever faithful. He does not deceive or mislead any person. When he says, "Come unto me", he really means it and that invitation is to every person. And when Jesus said he will in no way cast out those who come to him, we can rest assured that we are saved.

Just curious:
How would you classify the person I descibed earlier? Still saved by the blood, never really saved, or saved but backsilden and out of God's will but God will bring him back. I am not intrested in debating you but trying to get a better understanding of my Cavinist Brothers and Sisters.

Well, I believe you are truly saved or you are not. Lots of folks simply believe they must be saved by works, even people in good gospel teaching churches. They never realize that they must confess they are a sinner worthy of hell, and cast themselves upon Jesus, and Him alone to save them.

As far as true Christians, I think if you stay in the scriptures, and fellowship with other Christians, you have a good chance of staying on the straight and narrow. If you get out of church and quit reading the scriptures you have a real good chance of falling into sin. You are still saved, but you lose rewards, you may come under God's chastisement, and you will very likely doubt and not have assurance of salvation.

Oh, and I am not a Calvinist or Arminian.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I guess that depends on who you ask. I understand it as maintaining faith.

Exactly correct

 

[thegospelgeek]

I guess that depends on who you ask. I understand it as maintaining faith.

Where a lot of folks go wrong is trying to maintain faith in their own faith, I hope you understand what I mean by that.

We can think that we must always have faith and never fear. When we do fear, we are convinced we do not have faith. We try to work it up, but the harder you try the worse it gets.

This is looking at one's own self. This is looking at our faithfulness. This is looking the wrong direction. We must forget about ourselves and look only at Jesus. When we do that we will not doubt, because Jesus can never fail.

Faith is trust based on knowledge. If I asked you to name a person you trust, you can easily do that. You might say your mother or father, your spouse, or a brother or sister. You don't have to work up this faith, you KNOW you trust them.

Faith is not a feeling. It is a knowledge based on a relationship with someone else. You trust your parents because you KNOW they love you and will always be faithful.

And lack of trust is based on lack of knowledge. Suppose a complete stranger came up to you and asked to borrow your car. What would you say?

You would probably say something like this:

"I'm sorry mister, I don't really know you, so I am not going to loan you my car."

We don't trust the guy because we don't know him.

We trust Jesus by reading the scriptures and getting to know him. Prayer helps as well, but our best source is the scriptures. When we read the scriptures we learn that Jesus is God and cannot lie. He is forever faithful. He does not deceive or mislead any person. When he says, "Come unto me", he really means it and that invitation is to every person. And when Jesus said he will in no way cast out those who come to him, we can rest assured that we are saved.



Well, I believe you are truly saved or you are not. Lots of folks simply believe they must be saved by works, even people in good gospel teaching churches. They never realize that they must confess they are a sinner worthy of hell, and cast themselves upon Jesus, and Him alone to save them.

As far as true Christians, I think if you stay in the scriptures, and fellowship with other Christians, you have a good chance of staying on the straight and narrow. If you get out of church and quit reading the scriptures you have a real good chance of falling into sin. You are still saved, but you lose rewards, you may come under God's chastisement, and you will very likely doubt and not have assurance of salvation.

Oh, and I am not a Calvinist or Arminian.

Sound very Arminian. In fact , Except for the very end, it sounds like a FWB. Maybe I am not the only one on these boards, others just don't know it yet:smilewinkgrin:

 

[thegospelgeek]

Winman:
I didn't see your answer about the man I had described. If you did I somehow am missing it. If a man seeks god, confesses his sin and lives for years a luife bearing fruit of the spirit, leads people to Christ, and confesses that Christ is Lord, falls away.

Was he never saved?
Saved and WILL return to Christ?
Still saved and will be in heaven although an out and out sinner who denies God?

 

[RAdam]

The way the bible uses the word persevere is in the sense of being strong in the Lord and running the race set before us. We are exhorted to persevere, not guaranteed. God preserves all that are His, none of them shall perish. Preservation is something God does alone. Persevering is something I need help from God with, but also something I must strive in. I need to, for instance, put on the armor of God so that I can stand strong in the Lord and persevere. Abraham is an example of someone who persevered. He made mistakes but kept going. He walked by faith after God and kept strong on that path. Lot is an example of one who did not persevere. He walked by sight, not by faith. He had a righteous soul, in fact Peter says it was vexed daily by the wickedness of the sodomites, but he continued to walk in his own path. It led to many sorrows for Lot, but he was still a child of God.

 

[psalms109:31]

Lot

Why Lot was considered righteous, because he believed God and did not turn back to his life of unbelief. While his wife turned back and was turned into a pillar of salt.

 

[RAdam]

Peter said Lot's righteous soul was vexed by the wickedness of Sodom. That means while he was living in Sodom, his righteous soul was vexed by their wickedness. That means he was considered righteous before he left Sodom, so his righteousness couldn't be because he didn't turn back to Sodom, because he hadn't left yet. Furthermore, after he leaves Sodom, he allows his daughters to get him drunk and commit a horrible sin with him.

 

[psalms109:31]

Drunkard

Good point. He must of been in Sodom, but not of it. Many times after what happened to Noah and to Lot the scripture speaks many times of not being a drunkard where you can not control what is happening to point where they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[rsr]

Twenty-page notice ahead:

Final arguments are welcome before the thread is closed.

 

[Luke2427]

That is not true. There will be people who sincerely believe themselves saved, who also believe they have the new nature.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These people truly believe themselves saved. And they truly believe they have the Holy Spirit. When Jesus says he does not know them, they argue.

They say, "What do you mean? Didn't we call you Lord? Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we cast out devils? Didn't we do many wonderful works in your name?"

These people were convinced by their own behavior that they had the Holy Spirit.

And this is what I have been saying all along. Yes, the true believer does display the new nature, they love the brethren and other such qualities.

But unbelievers often display these very same qualities and are convinced within themselves they are saved.

But they don't have the new nature so they are wrong. Therefore they had no real basis upon which to found the idea of being saved.

Saved people are not lost people. Saved people really do have the new nature.

There is no reason for a saved person to doubt his salvation and there is no reason for a lost person to think that he is saved.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree with you, of course only true believers have the new nature. But we are not talking about that, we are talking about assurance. And the fact is, there are many people who are confident and have assurance they are saved who are not. The Pharisee in Luke 18 is a perfect example.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Did this Pharisee have assurance and confidence that he was saved? YES.

Was he? NO.

no he did not. You don't understand the word assurance.

You can't be sure of something that isn't so.

The definition of sure is: unquestionably true or real and not in doubt.

They can't be SURE they are saved if they aren't because being sure means you know that it is so. If it is not so then you cannot KNOW that it is.

You can think, believe, hope or whatever, but you cannot know or be sure if it ain't so.

What lost people believe is of little consequence to the truth of the Perseverance or, if you prefer, eternal security.