Romans 13:1

[GBC Pastor]

I am curious about what views you may have regarding this verse. Particularly this portion of the text, "the authorities that exist are appointed by God" (NKJV). Do you hold to the belief that God has appointed the "office" but not the "individual?" Do you believe that God has divinely appointed the "office" and the "individual?" Or do you view it altogether differently?

 

[Athanasian Creed]

The powers that exist, exist by the permission and providence of God. God sets them in order, assigns them their location, changes and directs them as He pleases. This does not mean that He originates or causes the evil dispositions of rulers, but that He directs and controls their appointment.

We see throughout the OT, that when Israel sinned, God raised up foreign powers to subjugate them as His judgment for their sin.

I believe God raises up individuals into office as part of His sovereign plan - and they are to be obeyed so long as they are not asking those they rule to go against God's laws - "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29)


Ray :jesus:

 

[Darrenss1]

I am curious about what views you may have regarding this verse. Particularly this portion of the text, "the authorities that exist are appointed by God" (NKJV). Do you hold to the belief that God has appointed the "office" but not the "individual?" Do you believe that God has divinely appointed the "office" and the "individual?" Or do you view it altogether differently?

If God appointed the individuals how could you explain dictatorships, especially that of Adolf Hitler? I believe men can be usurpers of authority, they gain power by duplicity and are in themselves very dangerous individuals.

The other issue I have considered in a democratic country whether the democracy is a good argument to support Rom 13:1?? I don't think it is. Does God influence every voter even the atheist? Instead I think God simply allows the events to occur but does not force the events to occur. This could also come down to a debate on the freewill of people to vote as God decrees....

Darren

 

[Pastor Larry]

If God appointed the individuals how could you explain dictatorships, especially that of Adolf Hitler?

The same you explain Nebuchadnezzar or any other dictator. God raised them up for his purposes.

Daniel 2:21 "It is He [God] who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.

 

[Darrenss1]

The same you explain Nebuchadnezzar or any other dictator. God raised them up for his purposes.

Daniel 2:21 "It is He [God] who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.

God raised up Adolf Hitler??

Darren

 

[GBC Pastor]

God raised up Adolf Hitler??

That is indeed a difficult thought to wrap ones mind around. However, Paul is writing during the time of Nero's reign in Rome, and yet still writes that the authorities are appointed by God.

 

[GBC Pastor]

I also wanted to mention that I am having a discussion of this with a group of pastor friends of mine. One shared this verse from Hosea 8:4 that seems to support your view Darrenss1: "They set up kings, but not by Me;they made princes, and I did not acknowledge it..."

 

[Revmitchell]

Daniel 2:21 "It is He [God] who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.



There seems to be an assumption made here that this verse is speaking of all Kings. I am not sure that assumption is warranted.

 

[Darrenss1]

That is indeed a difficult thought to wrap ones mind around. However, Paul is writing during the time of Nero's reign in Rome, and yet still writes that the authorities are appointed by God.

Which reminds me, as I recall my history (via google) Adolf Hitler was elected in 1929 by the people. That's why I mentioned democracy, can the people get it wrong?? I believe so just as they did in Israel in demanding a king, yet God allowed for their foolish request. The majority of the kings were evil in the sight of God rather than good as like David.

God wills for there to be governing authorities, there's no question about that, yet the authorities themselves will be judged. Did God raise them up specifically such as Adolf Hitler? I can't agree with that, sorry.

Darren

 

[Mexdeaf]

Which reminds me, as I recall my history (via google) Adolf Hitler was elected in 1929 by the people. That's why I mentioned democracy, can the people get it wrong?? I believe so just as they did in Israel in demanding a king, yet God allowed for their foolish request. The majority of the kings were evil in the sight of God rather than good as like David.

God wills for there to be governing authorities, there's no question about that, yet the authorities themselves will be judged. Did God raise them up specifically such as Adolf Hitler? I can't agree with that, sorry.

Darren

No need to apologize to us- instead you might apologize to God for refusing to believe that He is sovereign.

 

[Darrenss1]

No need to apologize to us- instead you might apologize to God for refusing to believe that He is sovereign.

God is sovereign mankind has responsibility; sometimes God raises up men while other times men usurp authority and God allows it. Though some christians believe they have sovereignty and free will/responsibility of man worked out I make no such claims. Therefore I don't owe God any such apology.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

That is indeed a difficult thought to wrap ones mind around. However, Paul is writing during the time of Nero's reign in Rome, and yet still writes that the authorities are appointed by God.

So when we go to the next election in Australia I ought to pray about voting for the most "evil" party rather than the more righteous? After all whomever gets elected is ALWAYS God's choice? When an ungodly party gets elected and I voted for the other party, have I then voted against God's sovereign decree? Silly me....

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

I also wanted to mention that I am having a discussion of this with a group of pastor friends of mine. One shared this verse from Hosea 8:4 that seems to support your view Darrenss1: "They set up kings, but not by Me;they made princes, and I did not acknowledge it..."

This is why I believe that man's own responsibility can be a factor in God's will for a government. Would a christian voting against Hitler think why God would decree such a man to get into power? Or more specific, given the selection of people God has for some reason decreed a man that will be responsible for the death of millions and seek to rule the world? Hmm, that's an odd decree and makes voting a difficult thing if they are seeking to "vote in" God's chosen leader? Would it occur to christians that God wants the mass murder in power? Obviously making such black and white claims causes more problems than it gives solutions for.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer opposed Hitler from day 1, should he of not accepted God's sovereignty in this matter and possibly repented of his rebellion against God's chosen leader?

Darren

 

[GBC Pastor]

Daniel 2:21 "It is He [God] who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.



There seems to be an assumption made here that this verse is speaking of all Kings. I am not sure that assumption is warranted

.

That's an interesting thought. How would that affect Romans 13:1 though Revmitchell? Do you think Paul is simply referring to authorities in Rome at the time of his writing?

 

[brucebaptist]

Daniel 2:21 "It is He [God] who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.
There seems to be an assumption made here that this verse is speaking of all Kings. I am not sure that assumption is warranted.

Hosea 8:4
They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not...