A Physical Return of Christ in the future

[lastday]

Lastday

Friends and Jury,

Have I "blown a gasket"?
Do I need to "take a vacation"??
Is my position "invalidated because I lack conviction"???

This is the response I am receiving from a "know it all"!
He refuses to deal with the Scriptural evidences given him!!
He's hung up on "spiritual" word interpretations with 2 meanings!!!

We have not yet clashed on his meaning of "this generation" which he confines
to those who lived during Jesus' earthly ministry! He has no concept of a Mind
that Knows the future as well as the past all at once!! He refuses to see that Jesus speaks from the standpoint of the Endtime generation who will "see all these things as they happens"!!! [Here Jesus used a singular verb to include multiple named events. Matt.24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32]!!!

In each Synoptic passage Jesus includes the fulfillment of ALL THINGS in "this generation"! He specifically states "all these things includes those who will see 'THE SIGN' of His Presence BEFORE and "faint from fear" DURING all the things that "begin to happen, that continue to happen and ARE COMPLETED" as He breaks through the clouds to 'gather the elect from earth physically to the Synagogue in the AIR' [NOT TO A SO-CALLED SPIRITUAL REALM]!! All of the things happenS on the DAY the Son of Man appears with great power and glory"!!!

Signs in Matt.24:29; Mark 13:24-25; Luke 21:25-26 occur BEFORE the Jews see THE SIGN of His Presence! The Jews realize their "redemption is near as these things begin to happen"!! Luke 21:28. Then they realize their "kingdom
is near as these things continue to happen"!!! Luke 21:31.

But only as "ALL these things happenS" do they begin to "mourn and beg to escape all these things and to be able to stand before the Son of Man...on the DAY and during the HOUR that is coming on ALL inhabitants on ALL the face of ALL the earth" at once! Luke 21:34-35; Then Luke 21:36.

Jesus has this "Generation" in mind that sees "all these things happening on
the DAY (a Saturday and Sunday) of His Presence"! "All these things are completed" during one of the unknown HOURS between Noon and 6 PM that ends the Jewish Sabbath!! These things (involving 100 verses in Revelation) herald the New (7th) Millennium and climax during the Twilight Hour that begins the "8-Day (Lev.23:34-39) Feast of Tabernacles" and the Celebration for their Redemption and Eternal Earthly Kingdom guaranteed to King David!!!

It seems I stand alone because there is no Jury and Logos evades/avoids the truth in favor of blandishments about my "lack of conviction that is evident to all of you...and my need to take a vacation for fear of blowing a gasket".
Mel Miller

 

[Winman]

Lastday

I do not think you have blown a gasket. :tongue3:

I do not know that I agree with everything you say, but primarily because I do not understand your views completely. But I agree with a great deal of what you say.

You cannot take these Preterists too seriously. They deny that there will be a physical resurrection of our bodies, even though it is demonstrated in Ezekiel 37 and Job shows it in Job 19.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job says here that even though his body is destroyed, he will see the Lord in his flesh and his eyes shall see him.

And in Ezekiel 37 Ezekiel saw bones that were dry. They were scattered and didn't even have marrow in them they were so old and dry. But God caused sinews, skin, and flesh to come upon them, breathed life into them and they stood on their feet.

 

[lastday]

Thank you so much, Winman, for your counsel.
I see why I should not take Preterists "too seriously".
I don't need a Jury after all...just that of Job and Israel...so thanks again.
Mel

 

[Fred's Wife]

How important is it to you that one hold to a physical return of Christ in the future? And what do you base that on?

It is very important that one hold to a physical return of Christ in the future. I base this on what God's Word states:

Jesus promised to return:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

We are to "love his appearing":

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

We are to look for the "blessed hope":

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

We are to "wait for His Son from heaven":

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

[asterisktom]

Friends,

In the Poll, I voted for sharing the faith with Preterists; but NOW I realize I should have voted for "discipline"!
The Preterists on this Forum continue to bash doctrine after doctrine by
denying that Jesus continues in the "flesh".


I find no interest at all on the part of Full Preterists in recognizing the merits
of historic doctrine held by the great majority of evangelicals! Logos denies that Jesus remains in "flesh and bones" as He Himself proved to Thomas!!
His "body of flesh" was already glorified when He spoke these words...words that Logos1 not only doubts to this day; but actually denies!!!

I don't see how or why these denials can be tolerated on this Forum!
We should not authorize the direct contradiction of the words of Jesus!!
I propose that at least we make it clear that Full Preterism is anathema!!!
Mel

Just curious, Mel. Do you still believe that God will save "2 billion Muslims" in the future?

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Tom Riggle writes:

Just curious, Mel. Do you still believe that God will save "2 billion Muslims" in the future?

I have not written that "salvation" for millions of Muslims means they will
become members of the Body of Christ or Bride of the Lamb. The "full
number of people belonging to Jesus as personal Savior" will be completed
before Christ appears in glory and power to gather the elect to meet Him!

But out of every "Twosome" among the "tribes of earth", which includes all descendants of the 12 tribes of Ishmael as well as the natural seed of Israel who survive to the End; but are not yet saved, "one may be taken and one left". Jesus promised that those who do not "seek to save themselves (i.e.,
bow down and plead for mercy) will be kept alive (preserved)" just like the
baby Moses was "kept alive" until rescued and kept in Pharoah's Palace!!

If those who are "kept alive" are 1/3 of the number alive today, as will be the case for 5 million Jews who will all be rescued (Zech.13:8-9; Joel 2:32) and maybe 400 million Muslims remain alive, 1/2 of their number (say 200 million Muslims or one out of every "Twosome"), then it is possible that this number may be "kept alive and be ruled over with an iron staff" for 1000 years. That's a likely way the surviving "natural seed" of Abraham may receive God's promise so that "all the families of earth" will be blessed. By inheriting the Kingdom guaranteed to King David as co-regent of an Eternal Earthly Kingdom during which the Kings of earth must come annually to Jerusalem
(Ezek.47:12 for "healing" during the Millennial Rule) and must forever come to the New Jerusalem to "eat the leaves of the Tree of Life for healing"!!!
Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.
Mel

 

[asterisktom]

Tom Riggle writes:


I have not written that "salvation" for millions of Muslims means they will
become members of the Body of Christ or Bride of the Lamb. The "full
number of people belonging to Jesus as personal Savior" will be completed
before Christ appears in glory and power to gather the elect to meet Him!

But out of every "Twosome" among the "tribes of earth", which includes all descendants of the 12 tribes of Ishmael as well as the natural seed of Israel who survive to the End; but are not yet saved, "one may be taken and one left". Jesus promised that those who do not "seek to save themselves (i.e.,
bow down and plead for mercy) will be kept alive (preserved)" just like the
baby Moses was "kept alive" until rescued and kept in Pharoah's Palace!!

If those who are "kept alive" are 1/3 of the number alive today, as will be the case for 5 million Jews who will all be rescued (Zech.13:8-9; Joel 2:32) and maybe 400 million Muslims remain alive, 1/2 of their number (say 200 million Muslims or one out of every "Twosome"), then it is possible that this number may be "kept alive and be ruled over with an iron staff" for 1000 years. That's a likely way the surviving "natural seed" of Abraham may receive God's promise so that "all the families of earth" will be blessed. By inheriting the Kingdom guaranteed to King David as co-regent of an Eternal Earthly Kingdom during which the Kings of earth must come annually to Jerusalem
(Ezek.47:12 for "healing" during the Millennial Rule) and must forever come to the New Jerusalem to "eat the leaves of the Tree of Life for healing"!!!
Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.
Mel

So you pretty much believe what you wrote years ago in ABC_Bible:

"But on that same 12-Hour Day, any UNBELIEVER who is "willing to lose
his life...instead of trying to save it as did Lot's wife...will be
able to "escape all these things and to stand before the Son of Man."
God is not wishing that any should perish! This last hour chance for
millions of Muslims who do not believe Jesus is the Son of God is the
last chance for them to "pray and beg" for mercy as Jesus promises.

Lot's wife represents the two billion Muslim blood-relatives of saved
Jews. "

Do you not see that this is much worse than my supposed heresy of Full Preterism?

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Tom,
Years ago I wrote:

"Lot's wife represents the two billion Muslim blood-relatives of saved
Jews."

When I wrote those words I was thinking of 2 Billion being the number of mankind who may "survive" after a "third" of 6 Billion are killed (over a quarter of the earth's area (not just the land of Israel as you claim). So I have realized the Muslim population was overstated. Of their number 400 million may survive and half that number may "bow and beg for mercy and be kept alive"!

Jesus ascended to heaven to remain "two days" (2000 years) until the "times to restore all things" (the first stage of which Elijah will introduce for 1260 days prior to Christ's return to complete that task). Hos.5:14-6:2. Jesus will be 2000 years of age
on the first day of Tishri in 5794 (2033). "On the third day (during the 7th Millennium) He will return and
Israel will repent and seek His face and become His People a "second time"!!

The assumption of Preterists distorts the fact that what occurs "soon" from
God's perspective of time requires the Saints to be patient until the "last one
who must be killed has been killed" before God "avenges their blood". You are forced to deny the literal, physical, future return of Christ in the same body He had from His resurrection to His ascension and with that denial would deprive us of many of the most precious doctrines of the Christian Faith. Disciples were false witnesses if He is not coming again in the same body with all the saints visibly seen as "glorified with Him...still bearing the scars of His suffering"!!!

My view makes sense because, while "many are called, few have been chosen
to be members of the Body of Christ"! But God promised Abraham that "his (natural) seed would be greater than the stars of heaven or sands of the sea"!! While the total number of Believers will be "countless" even from our point of view, the several Trillion born from a surviving group of half of a third of 6 billion people (one billion) produced over the 7th Millennium, could become like the "stars of heaven and sands of the sea"!!!
Mel

 

[Logos1]

Good to hear from you again Asterisktom

Asterisktom it is good to see you back posting with us again. I think I can speak for all of us (even the futurists brethren among us—and we are all friends in here) when I say we have missed you. Hope you visit us more often when your writing permits.

PS Lastdays I’m glad to see you didn’t blow a gasket. You truly had me starting to worry about you. I was afraid I had driven you to gasket blowing territory and my guilt trip was going to force me to spring for a fruit basket. Oh and by the way you’ll be glad to know I dealt with “this generation” under the active thread going on with Thessalonians. You’re cordially invited to “clash” with me as you say over there.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

That’s so sweet of you to say Mel

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Logos,

You’ll be glad to know I dealt with “this generation” under the active thread going on with Thessalonians. You’re cordially invited to “clash” with me as you say over there. If we can’t trust his temporal statements then how could we think he would speak to us on a level we could understand on any other subject? Nothing would have any real meaning to us.

Thanks, but no thanks since I don't care to be jostled by last days' "scoffers"!
My concern is 100 verses in Revelation dealing exclusively with the "Lastday"!!
Peter warned of "scoffers" who question the SC...even those who "fall away!!!

I do not for a minute question your presence at the next supper of the Lamb!
Remember He promised to "eat with THEM again when God's Kingdom comes"!!
If you don't agree with this, I see why it no longer "means anything to you"!!!

Those who remain true to divine Inspiration apply these words to US today.
Mel

 

[asterisktom]

Asterisktom it is good to see you back posting with us again. I think I can speak for all of us (even the futurists brethren among us—and we are all friends in here) when I say we have missed you. Hope you visit us more often when your writing permits.

Thanks, Logos1. I took a break because it was getting too time-consuming. As a number of us have experienced in these groups, I became overly involved in discussions/arguments of diminishing returns. There is a real value for this group, seeing that opponents often point out things that "the choir" miss.

School is starting up soon, so I will have teaching to do again, so I will probably lurk more than write.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Logos,

Tom produces a "brilliancy" despite distancing himself from those whom he doesn't "like to talk to":

There is a real value for this group, seeing that opponents often
point out things that "the choir" miss.

I wonder if your Group "spiritualizes" what could not have occurred in AD 70!
Unless, of course, your words have no literal meaning for the past or future!!
Those in "the Choir" might include your opponents who take words literally!!!
Rev.7:4-11:
4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5: And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6: These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the (1260) days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7: And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10: And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11: And

after three days and an half

the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12: And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,

Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Have you or any of your Group found evidence that these Two Existed?
How could "peoples of the nations" see their dead bodies in AD 70??
When did their enemies "see them ascending to heaven"???
Mel

 

[Logos1]

Yes their bodies were seen in 70 AD

Have you or any of your Group found evidence that these Two Existed?
How could "peoples of the nations" see their dead bodies in AD 70??
When did their enemies "see them ascending to heaven"???
Mel

Yes Josephus tells us exactly how!

The Jewish people from various nations were gathered in Jerusalem in 70AD!!

Burial details couldn't keep up with the dying during the Roman siege so dead bodies lay in the street unburied where everyone could see them!!!


“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Your Welcome!
Just glad!!
I could be of service Mel!!!

 

[lastday]

Logos the Spiritualizer,

Josephus did not sit on a pedesal as "Biblical Interpreter" to which you would exalt him!
You did not even make an attempt to answer any of the three questions I asked of you!!
This shows the utter bankruptcy of Preterisms' attempt to explain the Doctrine of Christ!!! Mel

 

[Paul33]

It is much better to follow the trail of cross-references, first, linking these nineteen verses together as one unit - one "day", then searching elsewhere in Scripture to see if we cannot find further enlightening correlation. And we do. One of the reasons I am doing my ongoing series of articles on Isaiah (though I quit posting them here) was that they have been immensely helpful in showing that Zechariah's prophecy are indeed referring to the gracious growth of the Kingdom of God, the Heavenly Jerusalem. What really helped me to become a Preterist was all of those Old Testament references of Christ, Paul, etc. John's use of Zech. (John 19:36-37) is a good case in point. He even has the detail of water and blood coming out of Christ's side. The blood points us to one of the "In that Day" verses,

"In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness." Zech. 13:1

The water points us to Christ as the Living Water. This is prefigured in the water from underneath the Temple in Ezekiel, a flow that gets wider and wider. This is the spreading of the Kingdom of Zion, the Church.

All of these things fit together smoothly in the Preterist system.
There is no disjointed day.
There is no weird asterisk next to our Lord's solemn promises of His soon return.

John's reference to Zechariah 12:10 does not mean that John thought that this was the Day of the LORD. John was establishing that Jesus is the Messiah, the one pierced, the one who will come again on the Day of the LORD. Zechariah makes it abundantly clear that they will look on me, the one they have pierced (past tense), and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a first born son (this mourning and grieving did not take place at his crucifixion by the inhabitants of Jerusalem. But in the future, when Christ comes again, they will look on him, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn and grieve.

Again, John's reference to Zechariah 12:10 establishes for his Gentile readers that Jesus is the Messiah, the one spoken of by Zechariah and the other prophets. We know from Acts that this same Jesus will will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven (1:11). What way is this? Physically, bodily, with a pierced side and nail prints on his hands and feet.

When this pierced Jesus returns, the Jewish nation will see this Jesus and mourn and grieve.

 

[Paul33]

OK. I am clear on the fact that you have no difficulties. You would begin to have difficulties if you realized that your are applying overly-literal fulfillments to spiritual prophecies. Are the mountains going to "melt" also, per the Bible. Is God going to ride on a "chariot in the clouds"? Do the trees "clap their hands"?

You are extremely literal on these imagery verses, but you are quite stretchy on the word "day".

And you are applying overly-figurative interpretations to literal prophecies.

You are extremely figurative on these prophetic verses, but you are quite literal on the word "day."

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Paul33,
AMEN! You have disarmed AsteriskTom!! On what is Literal/Figurative!!!
Quotes:
Originally Posted by Tom:

OK. I am clear on the fact that you have no difficulties. You would begin to have difficulties if you realized that you are applying overly-literal fulfillments to spiritual prophecies.

Originally Posted by Paul:

You are extremely literal on these imagery verses, but you are quite stretchy on the word "day".
And you are applying overly-figurative interpretations to literal prophecies.
You are extremely figurative on these prophetic verses, but you are quite literal on the word "day."

You have finally UNMASKED and DISARMED Tom of his false View of Scripture:

Tom can's see Jesus gathering the Elect from earth in Mark 13:27!
Nor why the angels literally gather us on four winds in Matt.24:31!!
Nor why the Elect aren't mentioned in Luke 21 when Christ appears!!!

The Elect are not mentioned by Luke because Jesus addresses the Jews!
The Jews will be "jealous and will mourn" when they see us with Jesus!!
They will "beg to escape all these things and to stand before Him"!!!

It is clear why Tom is literal on the word "DAY"!
The Elect will be gathered together above on the DAY He appears!!
The Elect include ALL the Martyrs of Jesus and ALL who survive to the END!!!
Mel