Can "Eternal Securitists" KNOW that heaven is their home.

[jbh28]

1 John 3:9-10 ESV
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Revmitchell was correct.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't see why anyone Calvinist or Armenian can believe they are going to heaven without trusting in Christ. I have been trusting in God as long as can remember. It all started off with God loving the world, me, because I was in it. The creator of everything loved me. I was a loner so God was my friend. I moved a lot so couldn't get to know anyone, but God. I praise God every day for my next door neighbor that God used to introduce me to Him. It wasn't until 11 that God introduced me to His Son. To find out that Jesus His Son had to be tortured, killed who did no wrong for my sin. How can anyone go back to a life without Jesus. I know I'm going to heaven because I trust not in myself, but Jesus and His word. That God loved the world that He sent His Son that those who believe in Him, trust in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. I don't have to believe in Calvinism or Armenian to know I'm going to heaven. Even though I do like a lot of what Pink teaches, I don't have to believe in his rendition of world. I can continue to believe and trust in what God convinced me of in my youth.

No one is saying that you can go to heaven without trusting Christ. We are saying that if you trust Christ and are born again you will trust Christ forever because his sheep follow him and a stranger they will not follow (John 10).

The Arminian, however, can trust Christ and still not KNOW that he is going to make it to heaven because he does not know whether or not he will believe to the end.

 

[jbh28]

No one is saying that you can go to heaven without trusting Christ. We are saying that if you trust Christ and are born again you will trust Christ forever because his sheep follow him and a stranger they will not follow (John 10).

The Arminian, however, can trust Christ and still not KNOW that he is going to make it to heaven because he does not know whether or not he will believe to the end.

It's Christ that keeps us, not ourselves! Well said.

 

[Luke2427]

You have not made this clear as was pointed out by others in the previous thread. You do not absolutely know 100% that you are saved, because you do not know if you will persevere. You have the same exact uncertainty that an Arminian has.

If a person believes they must persevere (which you do), they cannot absolutely know if they will persevere until the moment they die.

I (and many others) do not hold to the doctrine of perserverance, we believe in preservation. In preservation you are kept by Jesus himself, you cannot possibly be lost, so you can be sure you are saved.

Jesus is the Good Shepherd isn't he? Does Jesus lose any of his sheep? NO.

Matt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

Does Jesus seek those of his who have gone astray? YES. And Jesus never fails. If he goes looking for you, he finds you everytime. You cannot be lost.

I know I am saved because I came in my heart to Jesus and trusted him to save me. I know that I did that. And I know by God's Word that he did not cast me out (John 6:37). So, my assurance is based on the word of Jesus who cannot lie.

Now, in the previous thread I told you that I do see evidences of the new nature within myself. But trust me, I often see evidence within myself that would make me doubt my salvation. So, to me anyway, this is not the most reliable test.

No, for me, my assurance is based on God's promises and His Word, not the evidence I see within myself.

And this is exactly what Paul says in Romans. He often saw behavior in himself that was sinful.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Even Paul, a great man of God, an apostle and prophet had a struggle with sin. He did not always behave as a Christian should.

So, I do not think observing one's own behavior is the best source of assurance of salvation. When you are doing well you will have great assurance, but the next day you may commit sin you would never think a true Christian capable of that will cause you to doubt.

It is not about "MUST" persevere it is about "WILL" persevere. God will see to it that I do. He will see to ti that you do as well, even if you don't know it.
John said in I John 2:27 "...ye SHALL abide in him."

I did make this clear but you are not getting it.

 

[Luke2427]

Hello Luke2427

I think your point has been made, with this statement........

For sure “faith” gets us saved.......
Ephesians 2:8-9
V.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
V.9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But the truly saved, can experience a “crises of faith”......
Mark 9:24
“And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”
--------------------------------------------------
I agree with annsni, that the only way to know FOR SURE that your saved, is your personal relationship with God, through Jesus Christ.

This “relationship” is real and tangible.

Yea, another word for relationship is "new nature". That's what it is- the third person of the Godhead trinity living inside the regenerate soul. And he walks with me and he talks with me and he TELLS ME I AM HIS OWN...

I John 3:24 "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. (Why do we keep his commandments? Because of the relationship of us being in him and him being in us) And hereby we KNOW that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

It is the New Nature that gives us assurance. Not our faith. Faith brings us salvation. The New Nature (caused by the indwelling of the holy Spirit) brings us assurance of that salvation.

 

[Luke2427]

I disagree.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Have you ever commited sin? Then, according to 1 John 3:9 you are not born of God.

Now, I know this is not the proper understanding of this verse, but the fact is, many thousands of Christians have been greatly troubled by this verse. They sin, and then they doubt their salvation because they believe if they were truly born of God they could not sin.

So, I absolutely disagree with anyone who bases their assurance on observing their own behavior. We all sin, and we sin often.

No, Jesus said whoever believes on him, that is, anyone who comes to him in dependence for salvation will be saved. I know by the Word of God I am saved, not my behavior.

For, what I think is probably LITERALLY the tenth or so time, NNE has said a word about "behavior" having ANYTHING to do with this.

But if you insist on arguing against the New Nature being that which gives the believer assurance then you might as well write your own bible to suit your own opinions. Because the Bible EXPRESSLY says it is the New Nature.
At this point you are not disagreeing with me but the Apostle John and the Apostle Paul and the Holy Spirit who inspired them.

 

[psalms109:31]

I agree to

1 John 3:9-10 ESV
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Revmitchell was correct.

I never said he wasn't I agree to, but it is not only practice but also commit sin we shouldn't be practicing or committing sin. We do because of the struggle with our flesh, because we are in a sinful flesh. It is easy to find a translation we agree with, but believing the scripture with both words being right even if it goes against our belief system? We are not living this life for our sake but for the sake of others. To be salt and light to this world. We are not complete until we are out of this condemned flesh and into our Spiritual body. We have to continue to beat this flesh into submission. If what I do causes my weaker brother to stumble I will never do it again.

 

[psalms109:31]

No one is saying that you can go to heaven without trusting Christ. We are saying that if you trust Christ and are born again you will trust Christ forever because his sheep follow him and a stranger they will not follow (John 10).

The Arminian, however, can trust Christ and still not KNOW that he is going to make it to heaven because he does not know whether or not he will believe to the end.

At the other end being a Calvinist doesn't guarantee heaven either. Armenian or Calvinism hasn't saved anyone, no religion has.

Who is the sheep of Christ are they not the one's whom God said He will keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord, Those who will not lean on their own understanding but trust in the name of the Lord. Who is not His sheep, didn't Jesus say that He will hide the truth from the wise and the learned.

Any Armenian here think they are not going to heaven because you might not trust in Him down the road?

 

[Luke2427]

At the other end being a Calvinist doesn't guarantee heaven either. Armenian or Calvinism hasn't saved anyone, no religion has.

Who is the sheep of Christ are they not the one's whom God said He will keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord, Those who will not lean on their own understanding but trust in the name of the Lord. Who is not His sheep, didn't Jesus say that He will hide the truth from the wise and the learned.

Any Armenian here think they are not going to heaven because you might not trust in Him down the road?

I don't understand your point nor your question. Please rephrase so that I might give you a proper response.

 

[jbh28]

I never said he wasn't I agree to, but it is not only practice but also commit sin we shouldn't be practicing or committing sin. We do because of the struggle with our flesh, because we are in a sinful flesh. It is easy to find a translation we agree with, but believing the scripture with both words being right even if it goes against our belief system? We are not living this life for our sake but for the sake of others. To be salt and light to this world. We are not complete until we are out of this condemned flesh and into our Spiritual body. We have to continue to beat this flesh into submission. If what I do causes my weaker brother to stumble I will never do it again.

Yes, we shouldn't be committing sin. The point in I John isn't saying that one born of God(Christian) will never sin, but speaking of it in the on going sense. Of course we will never be perfect and always will be dealing with our flesh until we are glorified.

 

[psalms109:31]

OK

Those of you are born of God inwardly who are in an ongoing struggle with sin, you are in the same boat as those are not in an ongoing struggle with sin but sin. You shouldn't be doing it.

We are in this flesh we are not fully born of God until we our in our Spiritual body.

So we are going to have to continue to beat this flesh into submission.

 

[Winman]

For, what I think is probably LITERALLY the tenth or so time, NNE has said a word about "behavior" having ANYTHING to do with this.

But if you insist on arguing against the New Nature being that which gives the believer assurance then you might as well write your own bible to suit your own opinions. Because the Bible EXPRESSLY says it is the New Nature.
At this point you are not disagreeing with me but the Apostle John and the Apostle Paul and the Holy Spirit who inspired them.

Could you please show the verses that show that it is the new nature that gives the believer assurance?

 

[jbh28]

Those of you are born of God inwardly who are in an ongoing struggle with sin, you are in the same boat as those are not in an ongoing struggle with sin but sin. You shouldn't be doing it.

We are in this flesh we are not fully born of God until we our in our Spiritual body.

So we are going to have to continue to beat this flesh into submission.

Be careful how you change the meaning of the term "born of God." The Bible always uses it in reference to saved people. We are fully born of God at salvation, we just still have our flesh with us. Glorification isn't referenced as rebirth. But basically, I agree with you.

 

[psalms109:31]

Rebirth

Be careful how you change the meaning of the term "born of God." The Bible always uses it in reference to saved people. We are fully born of God at salvation, we just still have our flesh with us. Glorification isn't referenced as rebirth. But basically, I agree with you.

On the inside we have been born of God changed, but we are waiting for the new body Spiritual body. You can polish that out side like a tomb, but what is on the inside is dead. We are different the outside is death, but what is on the inside has been renewed by God. God is the only one who can change us within, trust in the Lord and you will not be disappointed. Fully reborn is when I receive my Spiritual body.

 

[jbh28]

On the inside we have been born of God changed, but we are waiting for the new body Spiritual body. You can polish that out side like a tomb, but what is on the inside is dead. We are different the outside is death, but what is on the inside has been renewed by God. God is the only one who can change us within, trust in the Lord and you will not be disappointed. Fully reborn is when I receive my Spiritual body.

I see what you are saying. My only point was that "born of God" in I John was what we already have, not what we will have.

 

[psalms109:31]

Inside

We are in the in side, but we are not fully born of God because of our flesh. If we was we would not be practicing sin or doing sin. Since we are doing that we are doing it because of the flesh. We have to continue to beat this flesh into submission. One day we will enter heaven with the Spiritual body no longer practicing or doing sin fully born of God

 

[jbh28]

We are in the in side, but we are not fully born of God because of our flesh. If we was we would not be practicing sin or doing sin. Since we are doing that we are doing it because of the flesh. We have to continue to beat this flesh into submission. One day we will enter heaven with the Spiritual body no longer practicing or doing sin fully born of God

Do you have any Scripture to use this term this way? From what I have seen, born of God refers to regeneration at Salvation, not glorification later.

 

[psalms109:31]

Born from God

Your body is a part of you, it isn't born of God until you are changed. Inside has been regenerated but your body hasn't until the twinkle of an eye. So we are going to have to have to beat it into submission. Sin has been condemned to the flesh. We are not complete without the Spiritual body. The scripture in John tells us straight out that we are not born of God practicing or doing sin. There is one's who are born of God inwardly practicing sin being told they are not born of God. I am letting them know they are, but they are going to need to learn about beating the body into submission. Those of you practicing sin does not mean you are not born of God inwardly, but the body is still fighting against you. With maturity and trusting and depending on Christ He will help you through it. My main concern is my weaker brother. If we can't enter heaven in this flesh we are not fully born of God until we get the Spiritual body

Romans 8

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 7:
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1 Corinthians 15:
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[jbh28]

Your body is a part of you, it isn't born of God until you are changed. Inside has been regenerated but your body hasn't until the twinkle of an eye. So we are going to have to have to beat it into submission. Sin has been condemned to the flesh. We are not complete without the Spiritual body. The scripture in John tells us straight out that we are not born of God practicing or doing sin. There is one's who are born of God inwardly practicing sin being told they are not born of God. I am letting them know they are, but they are going to need to learn to about beating the body into submission. Those of you practicing sin does not mean you are not born of God inwardly, but the body is still fighting against you. With maturity and trusting and depending on Christ He will help you through it. My main concern is my weaker brother. If we can't enter heaven in this flesh we are not fully born of God until we get the Spiritual body

Romans 8

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 7:
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1 Corinthians 15:
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

You are talking about just the flesh.

 

[Luke2427]

Could you please show the verses that show that it is the new nature that gives the believer assurance?

Ii Corinthians 5:17 the entire book of I john just for starters.