Lordship salvation vs Easy believism

[jaigner]

I think there are much better terms than "easy believism."

"Cheap grace" comes to mind, but I'm a sucker for Bonhoeffer, and it might not be a good alternative.

 

[Jon-Marc]

While being saved IS easy, the believing and trusting part is not.

 

[Tater77]

These Scriptures are why I cannot believe in Lordship Salvation.

Romans 4:4-8 (New American Standard Bible)

4Now to the one who (A)works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

5But to the one who does not work, but (B)believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

​

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New American Standard Bible)

8For (A)by grace you have been saved (B)through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (C)the gift of God;

9(D)not as a result of works, so that (E)no one may boast.​

Everything I have read on Lordship Salvation is little more than Scripture twisting at its best. Let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[psalms109:31]

Vs.

I don't see it as Lordship salvation vs. easy belief-ism but a light burden grace through faith vs. easy grace-ism.

 

[jbh28]

These Scriptures are why I cannot believe in Lordship Salvation.

Romans 4:4-8 (New American Standard Bible)

4Now to the one who (A)works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

5But to the one who does not work, but (B)believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

​

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New American Standard Bible)

8For (A)by grace you have been saved (B)through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (C)the gift of God;

9(D)not as a result of works, so that (E)no one may boast.​

Everything I have read on Lordship Salvation is little more than Scripture twisting at its best. Let the Bible speak for itself.

What would be your definition of Lordship Salvation?

 

[Winman]

What would be your definition of Lordship Salvation?

You did not ask me, but what I see wrong with Lordship salvation is this, it makes salvation a works salvation.

It is like the Lord saying, "If you will give up all your sins and fully obey me, then I will save you."

Now that is you having to do something to be saved. It is not a free gift, because you are obligated to perform. No turning from sin, no salvation.

Now, the way I see it is this, when a person truly realizes the destruction that sin causes, and that they are going to be damned forever because of their sin, they are going to hate it. And they are going to turn to Jesus to be saved from the dreadful sin condition they are in.

When Jesus saves you from your sin and the condemnation that it brings, you are going to be thankful and grateful. And you are going to desire to please Jesus. You will seek to please and obey him out of gratitude, not fear.

Luke 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.


Was anything required of the debtors in verse 42? No, in fact, it says they had nothing to pay. But Jesus forgave them both and asks who will love him more, the man who owed five hundred pence, or the man that owed fifty pence? And he shows that to the person whom the most sin is forgiven, this person will love him more and serve out of love and gratitude as this woman who was a prostitute did.

 

[Revmitchell]

You did not ask me, but what I see wrong with Lordship salvation is this, it makes salvation a works salvation.

Then you either have a poor definition of works, or you have the wrong idea of what making Christ Lord is.

It is like the Lord saying, "If you will give up all your sins and fully obey me, then I will save you."

It is called believing

Now that is you having to do something to be saved. It is not a free gift, because you are obligated to perform. No turning from sin, no salvation.

Whatever your definition of believing is that is doing something.

Now, the way I see it is this, when a person truly realizes the destruction that sin causes, and that they are going to be damned forever because of their sin, they are going to hate it. And they are going to turn to Jesus to be saved from the dreadful sin condition they are in.

When Jesus saves you from your sin and the condemnation that it brings, you are going to be thankful and grateful. And you are going to desire to please Jesus. You will seek to please and obey him out of gratitude, not fear.

And I would say there is no cause for division here. This all occurs in the same moment.

Luke 7:40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.


This verse does nothing to support your position

Was anything required of the debtors in verse 42? No, in fact, it says they had nothing to pay. But Jesus forgave them both and asks who will love him more, the man who owed five hundred pence, or the man that owed fifty pence? And he shows that to the person whom the most sin is forgiven, this person will love him more and serve out of love and gratitude as this woman who was a prostitute did.

You have to be careful with parables. They are never intended to address every detail of reality.

 

[Winman]

Whatever your definition of believing is that is doing something.

This is the crux of the matter. Believeing is not doing something, it is a ceasing from doing anything and relying upon another to do for you what you cannot do for yourself. It is a ceasing from all self-effort.

Suppose you were several payments behind on you car payments and your car was going to be repossessed. You are full of worry and trying everything you can to come up with the money.

A friend hears of your situation and says, "Don't worry one moment more, I will pay all of your past due payments and bring you up to date. Trust me, I will contact your finance company today and make your payments with my credit card."

Now what do you do? Nothing. You simply sit back and wait to see if your friend will perform the promise they made to you. This is trust, this is believeing.

And this is the way it is with Jesus. He said come unto me, and he promised that anyone who comes to him he will in no wise cast out. So, you come to him in your heart, and now you wait to see if he will perform the promise he made to you. This is trust, this is believeing.

Psa 27:14 Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.

Jesus doesn't need your help in saving you, he can do it all by himself. He simply wants you to trust the matter into his hands.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is a ceasing from all self-effort.

Which is self effort itself.

 

[Winman]

Which is self effort itself.

Give me a break. That is an oxymoron.

Take a parachuter. When they jump out of the plane, they are risking their very life to the parachute. They don't flap their arms and try to fly to get down safely, they completely rely on the parachute to do the work to get them down.

Or, imagine a fire in a skyscraper. You are trapped on the sixth floor. Firemen below with a huge net tell you to jump and that they will catch you. You jump.

This is trust, this is believeing, this is putting your life in someone else's hands and depending upon them to save you. It is not a work, it is a ceasing of work. You are no longer trying to save yourself but depending on the firemen to save you.

And the jumping is simply a result of believeing. If you did not first believe, then you would not jump. So, jumping is an act that results from first believeing.

 

[HankD]

When the subject of "easy-believism" comes up, I always like to say that believing in Jesus is one of the easiest things I am able to do.

What is the alternative? Difficult believism?

I think we are dealing with misnomers.

Instead of "easy believism" we are talking about "phony believism".

i.e. A belief system based upon one's factual/historical data about Jesus rather than knowing Jesus Christ (rather, being known by Him) Himself.

The difficult part is not our justification but our sanctification, crucifying the flesh, being a living sacrifice.

These are not necessary to salvation but are part of our reasonable service to God as we mature.

Justification vs sanctification.

So, IMO, we confuse the two, also, there is another issue: the carnal Christian (Corinthians) and the "head knowleldge Christian" can be very much alike in their walk.

In fact, perhaps (I would think) some "head knowledge Christians" are moral people and no one suspects they are not saved.

But if we come to the place where we are producing the fruit of the Spirit then we can have that blessed assurance because the fruit of the Spirit cannot be mimicked by the flesh.

Romans 8

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:​

This is the context of Romans 8, when we cease from being carnally minded then we can have the witness of the Spirit.​

To mortify the flesh is not always so easy.

HankD​

 

[Berean]

So do you believe in Lordship salvation or Easy believisum or both? Please explain why or why not for your choice.

I don't know what you mean by Easy believisum, neither do I believe in Cheap Grace (repeat this little prayer after me and come forward and sign the book). I believe salvation comes by conviction of the HS recognizing you are totally deprave and in need of a savior, repentence and believing it is a Gift of God. Put whatever label on this you wish.

 

[Revmitchell]

Give me a break. That is an oxymoron.

Take a parachuter. When they jump out of the plane, they are risking their very life to the parachute. They don't flap their arms and try to fly to get down safely, they completely rely on the parachute to do the work to get them down.

Or, imagine a fire in a skyscraper. You are trapped on the sixth floor. Firemen below with a huge net tell you to jump and that they will catch you. You jump.

This is trust, this is believeing, this is putting your life in someone else's hands and depending upon them to save you. It is not a work, it is a ceasing of work. You are no longer trying to save yourself but depending on the firemen to save you.

And the jumping is simply a result of believeing. If you did not first believe, then you would not jump. So, jumping is an act that results from first believeing.

All the contrived analogies still does not change the fact that putting your faith in something or someone is an action.

Believing that Christ is Savior is no different than believing that Christ is Lord.

 

[Winman]

All the contrived analogies still does not change the fact that putting your faith in something or someone is an action.

Believing that Christ is Savior is no different than believing that Christ is Lord.

No, the action follows the faith. Just as in the example of the firemen, if you do not believe they are able to safely catch you, then you are not going to jump.

Some folks will not fly, they will not get on a plane. Why? Because they do not trust airplanes.

And it is the same when Jesus said "Come unto me". If you do not believe Jesus is truly able to save you, you will not come. But if you believe even a little, you will come. The action of coming follows the faith.

 

[webdog]

When the subject of "easy-believism" comes up, I always like to say that believing in Jesus is one of the easiest things I am able to do.

What is the alternative? Difficult believism?

I think we are dealing with misnomers.

Instead of "easy believism" we are talking about "phony believism".

i.e. A belief system based upon one's factual/historical data about Jesus rather than knowing Jesus Christ (rather, being known by Him) Himself.

The difficult part is not our justification but our sanctification, crucifying the flesh, being a living sacrifice.

These are not necessary to salvation but are part of our reasonable service to God as we mature.

Justification vs sanctification.

So, IMO, we confuse the two, also, there is another issue: the carnal Christian (Corinthians) and the "head knowleldge Christian" can be very much alike in their walk.

In fact, perhaps (I would think) some "head knowledge Christians" are moral people and no one suspects they are not saved.

But if we come to the place where we are producing the fruit of the Spirit then we can have that blessed assurance because the fruit of the Spirit cannot be mimicked by the flesh.

Romans 8

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:​

This is the context of Romans 8, when we cease from being carnally minded then we can have the witness of the Spirit.​

To mortify the flesh is not always so easy.

HankD​

I agree, the poll needs to either define clearly what they mean or give another option. Lordship Salvation is redundant as salvation is only found in our Lord, and the whole "exchange" of self for Christ is nothing more than front loaded works salvation...and while the act of believing is not easy in the fact by nature we do not want to give up self or think we can do something that merits eternal life, the fact we don't have to earn salvation is quite easy.

 

[Winman]

I agree, the poll needs to either define clearly what they mean or give another option. Lordship Salvation is redundant as salvation is only found in our Lord, and the whole "exchange" of self for Christ is nothing more than front loaded works salvation...and while the act of believing is not easy in the fact by nature we do not want to give up self or think we can do something that merits eternal life, the fact we don't have to earn salvation is quite easy.

Exactly. While trusting Jesus is easy for some people, it is almost impossible for many. They simply cannot let go and trust their life into Jesus's hands.

Trust is letting go, not hanging on. Oh, you can try to hang on, but you are going to grow weary. Your grip is going to slip, you are going to be filled with terror. And sooner or later you will lose your grip.

No, just let go and let Jesus catch you. He will.

 

[Revmitchell]

No, the action follows the faith. Just as in the example of the firemen, if you do not believe they are able to safely catch you, then you are not going to jump.

Some folks will not fly, they will not get on a plane. Why? Because they do not trust airplanes.

And it is the same when Jesus said "Come unto me". If you do not believe Jesus is truly able to save you, you will not come. But if you believe even a little, you will come. The action of coming follows the faith.

Good luck with that

 

[gb93433]

Some of the early believers such as Peter and many others denied Jesus so where does that put them? Easy believism or lordship?

 

[Winman]

Good luck with that

Faith is what causes action, and this is directly shown in scripture.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Verse 13 says that whosoever shall call upon Jesus for salvation shall be saved. That is an action.

But note carefully in verse 14 that Paul asks how it could be possible for a person to call on Jesus unless they first believe in him?

The answer to Paul's question is obvious to all, you can't. No one is going to perform the action of calling on Jesus for salvation unless they first believe he is the Son of God who died for them and rose from the dead, and that he has promised to save everyone who comes to him.

If you truly do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, you are not going to call on him. But if you truly believe Jesus is the Son of God you are going to call on him.

I believe that verse 13 is a verse God gave us for assurance. I know that I sincerely asked Jesus to forgive my sins and save me. But I would not have called on Jesus unless I first believed he was the Son of God. I was probably saved before I actually prayed to Jesus, when I first believed on him. But now I know I am saved because I called on him, this is how we can know for a certainty we are saved. Verse 13 is intended to confirm and assure our salvation.

Calling is an action, but it followed the faith which was not an action.

And I am not trying to say that a person does not accept Jesus as Lord. How can you believe Jesus is God and not believe him to be Lord? If you really believe Jesus is God you are going to try to listen to him and try to obey him. However, we still have the sinful flesh that wars against the spirit, and we will not always be obedient to Jesus. But we should have that sincere desire to please and obey him if we truly believe he is God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Faith is what causes action, and this is directly shown in scripture.

Great! One action causes another I will not disagree with that.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

This fails to support your position

Verse 13 says that whosoever shall call upon Jesus for salvation shall be saved. That is an action.

I agree

But note carefully in verse 14 that Paul asks how it could be possible for a person to call on Jesus

Action number one

unless they first believe in him?

Action number 2

The answer to Paul's question is obvious to all, you can't. No one is going to perform the action of calling on Jesus for salvation unless they first believe he is the Son of God who died for them and rose from the dead, and that he has promised to save everyone who comes to him.

I agree and in that are two actions. Some actions are physical some are in the heart.

If you truly do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, you are not going to call on him. But if you truly believe Jesus is the Son of God you are going to call on him.

You are preaching to the chior

I believe that verse 13 is a verse God gave us for assurance. I know that I sincerely asked Jesus to forgive my sins and save me. But I would not have called on Jesus unless I first believed he was the Son of God.

I agree you believed (first action) then you called on Him (second action)

I was probably saved before I actually prayed to Jesus, when I first believed on him. But now I know I am saved because I called on him, this is how we can know for a certainty we are saved. Verse 13 is intended to confirm and assure our salvation.

:thumbs:

Calling is an action, but it followed the faith which was not an action.

You have yet to prove this

And I am not trying to say that a person does not accept Jesus as Lord. How can you believe Jesus is God and not believe him to be Lord?

Exactly

If you really believe Jesus is God you are going to try to listen to him and try to obey him. However, we still have the sinful flesh that wars against the spirit, and we will not always be obedient to Jesus. But we should have that sincere desire to please and obey him if we truly believe he is God.

Which is as some call Lordship Salvation. See some think you have be saved and not even have a desire to please God but only want to continue in your sinful life style. Such is heresy.