Lordship salvation vs Easy believism

[Winman]

Great! One action causes another I will not disagree with that.

Faith is not an action. Name me right now two persons whom you trust, in whom you have faith.

What happened there? Action? No, unless you consider thought an action. But I bet you were almost immediately able to come up with two persons you trust. Perhaps your wife, and your mother for example.

And faith is not a feeling either. It is a knowledge based on a relationship. If I challanged your faith in your wife or your parents you would laugh at me. There is no way I would be able to shake or disturb what you absolutely know to be your faith in your family.

However, challange someone's faith in Christ and they get all shook up. They will call for your banning, they will get emotionally upset.

This is because people have been misled as to what faith is. They have been taught it is some sort of feeling of continous confidence. When they have the slightest doubt, they get all troubled in their mind and ask themselves if they truly believe in Jesus. For some people this can become so severe as to almost be disabling. They get really messed up.

Faith in Jesus is not looking within oneself to see some sort of continuous confidence. No, it is taking your eyes and mind completely off one's own self and looking at Jesus only. When you do that the doubts will flee and you will be filled with faith, because Jesus will never fail you, ever.

But trusting is not an action. It is a decision. It is choosing to depend or rely on someone else.

If a perfect stranger came up and asked to borrow your car, what would you say? You would probably say something like this:

"I'm sorry mister, I really don't know you, so I am not going to loan you my car."

Why didn't you trust this man or have faith in him? Because you didn't know him, and didn't know if he was trustworthy or not. You didn't look within yourself and ask yourself if you believed in this person, you didn't examine your feelings either. Your decision was based on your lack of knowledge of this stranger.

But if your wife or another family member asked to borrow your car, you would probably give them the keys at once. Why? Because you know them, and you know them to be faithful to you. It is not a feeling, it is a knowledge based on your relationship with them.

Faith is not an action, it is a decision. It is not a feeling either, it is a knowledge.

 

[Revmitchell]

Faith is not an action. Name me right now two persons whom you trust, in whom you have faith.

What happened there? Action? No, unless you consider thought an action. But I bet you were almost immediately able to come up with two persons you trust. Perhaps your wife, and your mother for example.

And faith is not a feeling either. It is a knowledge based on a relationship. If I challanged your faith in your wife or your parents you would laugh at me. There is no way I would be able to shake or disturb what you absolutely know to be your faith in your family.

However, challange someone's faith in Christ and they get all shook up. They will call for your banning, they will get emotionally upset.

This is because people have been misled as to what faith is. They have been taught it is some sort of feeling of continous confidence. When they have the slightest doubt, they get all troubled in their mind and ask themselves if they truly believe in Jesus. For some people this can become so severe as to almost be disabling. They get really messed up.

Faith in Jesus is not looking within oneself to see some sort of continuous confidence. No, it is taking your eyes and mind completely off one's own self and looking at Jesus only. When you do that the doubts will flee and you will be filled with faith, because Jesus will never fail you, ever.

But trusting is not an action. It is a decision. It is choosing to depend or rely on someone else.

If a perfect stranger came up and asked to borrow your car, what would you say? You would probably say something like this:

"I'm sorry mister, I really don't know you, so I am not going to loan you my car."

Why didn't you trust this man or have faith in him? Because you didn't know him, and didn't know if he was trustworthy or not. You didn't look within yourself and ask yourself if you believed in this person, you didn't examine your feelings either. Your decision was based on your lack of knowledge of this stranger.

But if your wife or another family member asked to borrow your car, you would probably give them the keys at once. Why? Because you know them, and you know them to be faithful to you. It is not a feeling, it is a knowledge based on your relationship with them.

Faith is not an action, it is a decision. It is not a feeling either, it is a knowledge.

And a decision is an action. Whether you like it or not.

 

[jbh28]

And a decision is an action. Whether you like it or not.

And faith is a gift of God, which is why we cannot boast of our salvation.

 

[webdog]

And a decision is an action. Whether you like it or not.

You don't define what an action is, the Bible does. Faith is not an action, which by definition is the process of acting or doing. That is a work, and Scripture defines faith as never being a work.

 

[webdog]

And faith is a gift of God, which is why we cannot boast of our salvation.

Wrong...salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God which is why we cannot boast or our salvation

 

[jbh28]

Wrong...salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God which is why we cannot boast or our salvation

No, I was right. Salvation is a gift. Faith is a gift. Grace is a gift. ALL parts of salvation is a gift of God.

 

[Revmitchell]

You don't define what an action is, the Bible does. Faith is not an action, which by definition is the process of acting or doing. That is a work, and Scripture defines faith as never being a work.

What you don't do is use your predetermined view to define what a work is:


Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


And scripture never defines your personal version of what a action is.

 

[Revmitchell]

No, I was right. Salvation is a gift. Faith is a gift. Grace is a gift. ALL parts of salvation is a gift of God.

Agreed :thumbs:

 

[Jedi Knight]

You don't define what an action is, the Bible does. Faith is not an action, which by definition is the process of acting or doing. That is a work, and Scripture defines faith as never being a work.

What did the children of Israel have to "do" to be healed "saved" from the poisonous snake bites in the wilderness?

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

My faith noun, my belief verb. Same meaning.

Faith that comes from the words of Jesus, and my belief, two different things.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.


Can I be saved without my belief and trust in the faith that God has given me?

Is Faith that comes from God and my trust and belief in them the same thing?

 

[Winman]

Trusting someone is not a work. It is a decision, it is a judgment, but it is not a work. When you trust someone it gives honor to them not ourselves.

You could be the biggest liar and thief in town, you could be absolutely untrustworthy yourself, yet you may fully trust your mother because you know that she loves you and would never betray you. Trusting her gives honor to her because of her trustworthiness, not yourself.

Believeing is not a work whatsoever, the scriptures contrast believeing and works.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Perhaps in your mind trusting Jesus is a work, but that is not what the scriptures say. Works and faith are opposite each other.

Everybody trusts in something. Most people trust in themselves and their own righteousness to get them to heaven. Ask people if they believe they are going to heaven and at least 9 out of 10 will say yes. Ask them why they think they will go to heaven and they will tell you they are a good person and they believe God will let them into heaven.

Trusting on Jesus is turning from trusting in one's self and depending 100% upon him to get you to heaven. He doesn't save us because we are good, he saves us because he loved us when we were yet ungodly.

So, if Jesus saves us when we are ungodly (which he does), then why would we need to be godly to stay saved? Why do you believe a person has to be righteous to stay saved when they did not have to be righteous to get saved?

We are righteous after we are saved, but not because of some goodness within ourselves, Jesus's righteousness is imputed to us, placed on our account for his sake.

Again, I am not saying we are not supposed to try to obey God when we get saved, we absolutely are. But anyone who thinks they can entirely quit sinning is fooling themselves. And it only takes one sin to damn a person to hell. No, we are no longer under the law, we are under grace.

 

[Revmitchell]

Believeing is not a work whatsoever, the scriptures contrast believeing and works.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You have made an assumption here in order to provide evidence for what you have predetermined. This verse does not provide pit work against believe in that way you want it to.

My point is that there is a flawed view of what a work is in relation to salvation. Some who want to believe that one can be saved but have no love, concern, or care for God or what He wants, wish to hold to the false view that any physical action is a work. This is false.

A work are those things one holds to outside of depending on Christ. The context for works is the law meaning what the Jews thought would save them. But today those who deny that God must be Lord or there is not salvation want to place every little thing under the sun under works.


You can say what you want but believe and faith are an action. It is an action that takes place in the heart. We are told that those who receive the Son will be saved (John 1:12). This is also an action. But it is not a legalistic work.

Your position is inconsistent. As much as webby is wrong he is at least consistent.

 

[Winman]

A work are those things one holds to outside of depending on Christ. The context for works is the law meaning what the Jews thought would save them. But today those who deny that God must be Lord or there is not salvation want to place every little thing under the sun under works.

I completely understand what you are saying here. And Jesus did give us a commandment.

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

So, I agree with you, we cannot simply say we are trusting on Christ and live like the devil. And I believe everyone who comes to Christ knows in his heart that he is going to be expected to turn from sin, and this is the reason why many refuse to be saved, they do not want to give up their sin.

We have an example, the rich young ruler, Jesus told him to sell all his possessions, give to the poor, follow him and he would have treasure in heaven. He was not willing to do so.

So, I agree that receiving Jesus as Savior is also receiving Jesus as Lord. I really do.

Where I might differ from you is that I am not assured by my own good works. I am assured because I trusted on Jesus to save me. If I do any good, it is in appreciation and gratitude to Jesus, not out of fear of being lost.

And we should never think too highly of what we do, we are only doing our duty and nothing more. We have nothing to boast about.

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Even if we do everything that Jesus commands us to do, we should never be highminded. We are still unprofitable servants who only performed their duty.

So, we are not in so much disagreement as you might think.

 

[Revmitchell]

Where I might differ from you is that I am not assured by my own good works. I am assured because I trusted on Jesus to save me. If I do any good, it is in appreciation and gratitude to Jesus, not out of fear of being lost.

And we should never think too highly of what we do, we are only doing our duty and nothing more. We have nothing to boast about.

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Even if we do everything that Jesus commands us to do, we should never be highminded. We are still unprofitable servants who only performed their duty.

So, we are not in so much disagreement as you might think.

On this we agree.:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

On this we agree.:thumbs:

Yes, the difference between Easy Believeism and Lordship Salvation is very small. Those who believe in EB are not saying that you just ask Jesus to save you and then continue in sin.

But there is a difference. Are you serving Jesus out of gratitude and love, or fear?

That is important, because if you are serving out of fear then you are depending on your own works. Do you see the difference?

We have an example in scripture, the woman who was caught in adultery.

John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Now, you may not follow me here, but the order of what Jesus says to this woman is very important. What did Jesus say first, "neither do I condemn thee" or "go, and sin no more."

First he said he had forgiven her didn't he? That is very important. And then afterward he told her to go, and sin no more.

This is the order in salvation as well. We come to Jesus as sinners. We have nothing to offer him. It is not some sort of deal where Jesus promises to save us if we promise to give up our sin.

No, Jesus saves us when we are ungodly sinners simply because he loves us, not because of some goodness in us, nor some future promised obedience and goodness on our part.

However, once he saves us and forgives us, now he wants us to obey him.

This woman was forgiven when Jesus said "neither do I condemn thee". Afterward Jesus told her not to sin again.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, the difference between Easy Believeism and Lordship Salvation is very small. Those who believe in EB are not saying that you just ask Jesus to save you and then continue in sin.

But there is a difference. Are you serving Jesus out of gratitude and love, or fear?

That is important, because if you are serving out of fear then you are depending on your own works. Do you see the difference?

We have an example in scripture, the woman who was caught in adultery.

John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Now, you may not follow me here, but the order of what Jesus says to this woman is very important. What did Jesus say first, "neither do I condemn thee" or "go, and sin no more."

First he said he had forgiven her didn't he? That is very important. And then afterward he told her to go, and sin no more.

This is the order in salvation as well. We come to Jesus as sinners. We have nothing to offer him. It is not some sort of deal where Jesus promises to save us if we promise to give up our sin.

No, Jesus saves us when we are ungodly sinners simply because he loves us, not because of some goodness in us, nor some future promised obedience and goodness on our part.

However, once he saves us and forgives us, now he wants us to obey him.

This woman was forgiven when Jesus said "neither do I condemn thee". Afterward Jesus told her not to sin again.

Do you see the difference?

I see your difference. But it is not scriptural. You have created a false chronology out of the John passage that God never intended for. This is the problem with so many debates around here. Folks trying to create chronological orders scripture never intends. As Dr. Bob said very wisely it is all the same package.

False Chronology in many theological issues are usually created by folks who want to justify something.

 

[Winman]

I see your difference. But it is not scriptural. You have created a false chronology out of the John passage that God never intended for. This is the problem with so many debates around here. Folks trying to create chronological orders scripture never intends. As Dr. Bob said very wisely it is all the same package.

False Chronology in many theological issues are usually created by folks who want to justify something.

If a person must stop sinning to be saved, then everybody would be lost, because we all sin from time to time.

Noah got drunk and lay naked in his tent. Lot was saved, yet he got drunk twice and had relations with his own daughters. Jacob lied and deceived his own father. Moses disobeyed God in the wilderness when God told him to speak to the rock and he struck it. Jonah disobeyed God and fled from him. David committed adultery and then murder when he had Uriah killed in battle. Solomon took wives that turned his heart away from God. Samson killed men over a bet and went in to a prostitute. Peter denied Jesus three times, gave up the ministry and went fishing...

The Bible clearly shows us that a saved person can and often does sin. If these great men of God could fall into sin and yet be saved, we can rest assured that we are saved if we trust in Jesus.

If a person must cease to sin after trusting Jesus to stay saved, then all of these men would be lost.

 

[Revmitchell]

If a person must stop sinning to be saved, then everybody would be lost, because we all sin from time to time.

A common strawman argument

[/QUOTE]

 

[Winman]

A common strawman argument

Have you quit sinning since you got saved?

 

[Revmitchell]

Have you quit sinning since you got saved?

Not relevant to anything I have said and a strawman argument. Quitting sinning is not in view of anyone here.