If you might be decieved "according to you" how can you pull the mote out of the Doc's eye? Hummmm?
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Eternal Security is NEVER wrong.
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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Dr. Walter
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Does not Jesus classify him with false believers in John 6:64-65? Does not Jesus use the present tense "IS" and say that Judus "IS" a devil in John 6:70? Does not Jesus claim that scriptures characterize him, long before he was ever born exactly in keeping with the description Jesus gives of him in John 6:64-65,70 as the "son of perdition" rather than a "son of God"?
Your view pits Jesus against himself and you know that is wrong. My view harmonizes what Jesus says about him in John 6 with what Jesus says about him in John 17.
If he was a lost professor and a demon in John 6 then the terms "son of perdition" does not contradict that does it? If he was a false professor and demon in John 6 he still is one in John 17.
All Christ is saying in John 17:12 is that I have not lost anyone you gave to me to keep but Judas and he was never mine to keep as even the Scripture predicted him to be the "son of perdition."
However, it seems you are content on making Jesus a liar as the statements "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" and "but the Son of perdition" cannot be reconciled if Judas was actually saved! However, long before John 17 Jesus makes it clear that he was NEVER saved (jn. 6:64-65, 70) and that his spiritual status "IS" a demon.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Satan WAS in a right relationship but sinned and became the devil. Adam and Eve WERE in a right relationship with God but sinned and fell. You err in the same manner as does Jedi. Once a devil does not translate into always a devil.
It doesn't? Can you show me in the Bible where a devil got saved?
What does Adam have to do with this? Adam was redeemed. God himself killed an animal; blood was shed; the consequences of their sin paid for.
Lucifer was an angel. He rebelled against God and fell.
So what?
Show me where a devil was ever saved?
Dr. Walter
New Member
You missed the point made by Christ himself! He placed Judas among those who never had a right relationship with him:
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
The above text was the STATEMENT of Christ but what follows is his explanation WHY they were not believers in him:
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
He is denying that the Father ever drew them to him but they came by some other motive and reason. Interestingly, Jesus drops the word "draw" in verse 65 that is found in verse 44 and explains it by the words "given unto him of my Father." What was not given unto those in verse 64 by the Father? The ability to believe in him.
Judas, among others came to Christ by their own power according to their own reasons but without being drawn by the Father and thus without the Father giving them saving faith in Christ.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
The doctrine of eternal security applies only to the person who is in union with Christ. This union can be broken by the sin of apostasy, which the New Testament everywhere warns against.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Judas Iscariot was so chosen and given (Jn. 17:1-12).
John 10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Hearing and following Jesus does not make one a sheep.
They hear and follow Jesus because they are His sheep.
It's what they do.
They hear and follow Jesus because they are His sheep.
It's what they do.
He gives (present tense) them "eternal life", it never ends which is the very definition of the term.
He confirms this by saying "they shall never perish".
He confirms this by saying "they shall never perish".
He twice confirms this by the use of the koine double-negative ou-ma not discernable or translatable in English (although it could be emulated by the phrase "and they shall never ever perish).
Having confirmed that He will not allow them to perish ,then He thrice confirms this in verse 29 by saying neither is any one else able to take them from Himslelf and His omnipotent Father.
In another place He states that if one should happen to wonder off on his own, He will go after Him and bring him back.
So, It is impossible for even one of His sheep to lose their eternal life.
If they don't believe in Him, they may indeed be a sheep but "ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you". They are the sheep of another.
HankD
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Only hearers, believers, and followers are Christ's sheep. Such sheep shall never perish.
Dr. Walter
New Member
John 10:27 never uses conditional clauses or subjunctives but rather the present indicative which DECLARES a fact. Your misinterpretations demand conditional clauses or the use of the subjunctive mode. Jesus is descrbing factual descriptions of His sheep without any CONDITIONS or EXCEPTIONS.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Christ described His sheep as human beings who hear, believe, and follow. If we finally stop hearing, believing, and following, we are no longer His sheep, because we no longer meet His description of His sheep..
Dr. Walter
New Member
Please find the "if" in John 10:27-30? We are all interested in where it is? Please find a conditional clause in John 10:27-30 as we are waiting to see how you can deny the indicative mode in present tense that is DECLARATIVE of fact! It seems you are good at just repeating unsubstantiated error about this specific context. Jesus says in John 6:39 that "OF ALL" which the Father gave him "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" and you repeatedly call him a liar - "let God be true and every man a liar."
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
The word "if" does not have to appear in John 10:27-30 in order for Christ's words to be descriptive. His words in this passage are very descriptive.
Dr. Walter
New Member
My friends "descriptive" and "conditional" are not the same! You are READING INTO the text what the text does not suggest, infer or say. It says that sheep do these things and it says that their security is Christ's committment NOT THEIRS! However, you are REVERSING and casting undue asperations on Christs words to teach your heresy.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
I did not say descriptive and conditional are the same. All I have said is that Christ describes His sheep as those who are hearers, believers, and followers. Human beings who finally stop hearing, believing, and following are no longer Christ's sheep, because they no longer meet His description of His sheep.
Dr. Walter
New Member
He describes sheep this way because they are His products (Deut. 29:4) and their keeping in this way is His committment (Jn. 10:28-30) by His power rather than by their power and that is precisely why He claims unconditionally without exception that "OF ALL" the Father hath given him "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" and you are put in the situation to continue to call Jesus Christ a liar.
Christ describes his sheep as MY sheep. He says: MY Father gave them to me. No man shall be able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
The sheep belong to Christ.
The sheep belong to the Father.
He has never lost a sheep.
You depict a God who is able to lose something/someone--a God who is only half there; perhaps has Alzheimer's; a God who is deficient. If that is your God, I want nothing of Him.
My God is perfect. What he says is true. He doesn't lose anything. He cannot. He is not like a man who misplaces his keys. He doesn't misplace his children, even if it seems as if his children go astray. One cannot hide from God. When they are saved they become His children. They cannot be unborn. God cannot lose them.
dear learner,
Eternal life is just that, eternal, it is not here today and gone tomorrow.
As one of His sheep, I can say that I am sorry that you doubt His words and actually do you not realize that you may not be "hearing" Him when He says "they shall never perish".
Like I said, He rescues His own who wander.
I have been such a sheep.
HankD
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