Does family matter? Some never get out of the court room and into the family room. They are just waiting to see if the gavel will fall down on them.
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Does family matter? Some never get out of the court room and into the family room. They are just waiting to see if the gavel will fall down on them.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: DW, you need to come to a realization of a clear fact. To disagree with your interpretation and to fail to beg the questions you so often assume without proof is NOT tantamount to calling God a liar. You, as well as some others, need to cut the inflammatory rhetoric.
You consistently beg the question. Who has the Father given Him and by what means and conditions does the Father choose those?? More over, what evidence do I have that I am one that will persevere or not? What evidence do I have that I am one of the ones Christ will not lose? What evidence do I have that I am not simply deceived? Just because Christ stated that he will lose none, what evidence does one have that one will not simply choose to leave the Father just as they have chosen to come to the Father? Salvation entails love, and love is not a necessitated force as your theology of necessity would indicate it is.
Conditions do not have to be listed every time a subject is breached, for there are ample verses that state the conditions by which God saves and keeps and will yet deliver. Your consistent denial of the conditions of salvation by no means constitutes their non-existence, stated specifically in a particular proof text cherry picked to support the unfounded presupposition of OSAS or not.
For the natural man cannot understand the things of God for they are spiritually discerned. Heavenly you claim you might be deceived like Judas....so why bother pointing out to others if you cannot understand truth?
True and why then preach a "maybe" gospel?
believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you might be saved?
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
HankD
Amen Brother HankD, doesn't make spiritual sense does it? It's the Achilles Heel of Heavenly Pilgrim's "I might be decieve but let me teach you a thing or two".
Matthew 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
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You are right. Conditions for salvation do not have to be listed. And they aren't for good reason. There are none to list. Salvation is unconditional. It is the free gift of God. There are no conditions on a free gift.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
DHK, you state that man must believe. Believing takes an act of the will. Believing in and of itself is fulfilling a condition of salvation whether you admit it or not.
Dr. Walter
New Member
I have never avoided a question that was asked me. I have never responded without giving specific detailed evidence. The tit for tat came when my opponents refused to deal with the evidence I gave them or responded rediculously.
John 6:37-45 deals with "ALL" those the Father gave the Son. This is stated clearly in John 6:37 and 39:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Now, who are these? The context defines them with precision. Being given by the Father PRECEDES coming to the Son. Being given is the CAUSE whereas coming is the CONSEQUENCE. They don't come to be given by the Father to the Son but they come because they have been given by the Father to the Son. The text demonstrates this clearly. ANY QUESTIONS?
Second, ALL not some, but ALL do come to the Son. So they are those who come to the Son. John 6:37 makes this clear that NONE fail to come to the Son of all who are given by the Father:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Therefore, they will come to the Son. Now what does it mean to "come" to the Son? It means to come in faith, to believe in him. This is proven from the context in a number of ways. For example look at verse 36 in contrast to verse 37:
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Can you see how Jesus contrasts "believe not" with all that the Father gives "shall come to me"? If that is not clear enough for you then contrast verse 36 with verse 40:
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
If this is not sufficient for you to see that coming to him is synonymous with beleiving on him then consider verses 39-40:
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
We have already established in verse 37 that ALL the father gives do come to Christ. In verse 39 "OF ALL" the father gives he states without conditions "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" which is then reaffirmed by the statedment "but should raise it up at the last day" All shall be raised up at the last day but the pronoun "it" in this last phrase refers to those he says he shall "LOSE NOTHING."
Now compare this to verse 40 "EVERYONE" represents the Greek word "pas" which is the same word previously translated in verse 37 and 39 as "ALL" and so coming to Christ is defined as "beleiveth on him" - note the same two promises given in verse 39 are given in verse 40 "have everlasting life" equals "I shall lose nothing" and "and I will raise him up at the last day" equals "but should raise it up in the last day."
Here is your problem. The stated cause for coming/believing is being given by the Father to the Son NOT VICE VERSA. Not one "OF ALL" that are given fail to come/beleive in the Son and not one "OF ALL" that come shall be lost.
Now, I do not want to go further. I want you to examine the evidence and SHOW me where either this text or my logic in dealing with this text is in error. Don't jump to another context to pit it against this text - deal with this text as I have done and SHOW me where I err? Fair enough?
John 6:37-45 deals with "ALL" those the Father gave the Son. This is stated clearly in John 6:37 and 39:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Now, who are these? The context defines them with precision. Being given by the Father PRECEDES coming to the Son. Being given is the CAUSE whereas coming is the CONSEQUENCE. They don't come to be given by the Father to the Son but they come because they have been given by the Father to the Son. The text demonstrates this clearly. ANY QUESTIONS?
Second, ALL not some, but ALL do come to the Son. So they are those who come to the Son. John 6:37 makes this clear that NONE fail to come to the Son of all who are given by the Father:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Therefore, they will come to the Son. Now what does it mean to "come" to the Son? It means to come in faith, to believe in him. This is proven from the context in a number of ways. For example look at verse 36 in contrast to verse 37:
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Can you see how Jesus contrasts "believe not" with all that the Father gives "shall come to me"? If that is not clear enough for you then contrast verse 36 with verse 40:
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
If this is not sufficient for you to see that coming to him is synonymous with beleiving on him then consider verses 39-40:
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
We have already established in verse 37 that ALL the father gives do come to Christ. In verse 39 "OF ALL" the father gives he states without conditions "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" which is then reaffirmed by the statedment "but should raise it up at the last day" All shall be raised up at the last day but the pronoun "it" in this last phrase refers to those he says he shall "LOSE NOTHING."
Now compare this to verse 40 "EVERYONE" represents the Greek word "pas" which is the same word previously translated in verse 37 and 39 as "ALL" and so coming to Christ is defined as "beleiveth on him" - note the same two promises given in verse 39 are given in verse 40 "have everlasting life" equals "I shall lose nothing" and "and I will raise him up at the last day" equals "but should raise it up in the last day."
Here is your problem. The stated cause for coming/believing is being given by the Father to the Son NOT VICE VERSA. Not one "OF ALL" that are given fail to come/beleive in the Son and not one "OF ALL" that come shall be lost.
Now, I do not want to go further. I want you to examine the evidence and SHOW me where either this text or my logic in dealing with this text is in error. Don't jump to another context to pit it against this text - deal with this text as I have done and SHOW me where I err? Fair enough?
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
DW, you still beg the question, who has the Father given Him and by what means and conditions does the Father choose those given to Christ?
Dr. Walter
New Member
I have not begged the question at all. I have proven that being given by the Father is the cause for coming to belief in Christ rather than coming to Christ is the reason for being given to Christ by the Father. Do you undestand what I have said? If not, then Paul says it this way:
2 Thes. 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Notice the cause and effect terms. Salvation is something God chose then "TO" rather than "because of". Or if that is not clear enough for you then consider Christ's commentary on the same phrases he used previously in John 6:37-39:
Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Notice the cause and effect relationship in the terms. How many has the Father given him power over" "ALL FLESH". How many of "ALL FLESH" does he give eternal life unto? "AS MANY AS THOUGH HAST GIVEN HIM." So, what is the stated purpose for the Father giving those to Christ in John 6:37-39?
If that is not clear enough for you then consider the cause and effect terms in this verse:
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
It does not say "as many as beleived were ordained to eternal life". Get the cause and consequence relationship in the terms used.
If that is not clear enough for you then consider Paul's order of cause and consequence in Romans 8:28-31
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
They were "foreknown" (v. 29) ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE (v. 28) as everthing stated in verses 29-30 is the outworking of His purpose just as Paul says in Ephesians 1:11 "who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will"
Now, what are you going to do with this evidence? Are you going to deal with each text and prove the cause and consequence relationship of terms that I pointed out are not true? That is what you must do to overturn my exposition of these texts. OR are you simply going to do what your friend has done - ignore the evidence and just blather unsubstantiated accusations or unfounded interpretations?
Never!!!
Jeremiah 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will NEVER stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will NEVER turn away from me. Never means never!! :jesus:
Jeremiah 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will NEVER stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will NEVER turn away from me. Never means never!! :jesus:
I don't beg.
Salvation is unconditional. Faith is not a condition. This has been explained to you many times. Here is what you have not done. Be a man and answer the challenge given you by Dr. Walter:http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1572316&postcount=48
The Gospel cannot be understood unless the Father in his grace gives it a person to understand. Ask me. I experienced it: I went through it. The Truth itself will not avail one bit to persuade a man, until one day, that man sees himself and wonders, is this, me? Was it I who so long fought against myself as against God's Word, as against God in his amazing grace? Is this free man now, I, my old Self? I kave never argued like this before; I never even thought it possible to think the way I now do? Was not I the great champion of my own free will? Did not I jest at those fools so self assured in their vain and proud boast they are the chosen of God, yea, they that will persevere unto the end, and most audacious of all, won't be lost in the end without their OWN WILL AND EFFORT? CAN, this, be me, now laughing and crying at once at myself?
Do not bother! God who knows his own, won't forget about one of them. If He chose you, He shall visit you. And He assured you He shall visit you with grace and healing and stripes and wounds at the same time. He shall recover you, but He shall only recover you from sickness. He shall dry your tears; not paint a smiling face.
Wait on the Lord. He does not wait for you.
Do not bother! God who knows his own, won't forget about one of them. If He chose you, He shall visit you. And He assured you He shall visit you with grace and healing and stripes and wounds at the same time. He shall recover you, but He shall only recover you from sickness. He shall dry your tears; not paint a smiling face.
Wait on the Lord. He does not wait for you.
Trotter
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You are trying to maintain your own salvation of your own making. "If we stop... we are no longer." Where is the power of the Holy Spirit in that? Where is the substitutionary death and sacrifice that Christ made on our behalf? It is completely excluded as you are doing it all on your own. God forbid you have a bad day...
Dr. Walter
New Member
You got it right! He does not believe in substitutionary atonement or imputed righteousness and he will tell you that if you ask him.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
The possibility of apostasy is plainly and clearly taught throughout the New Testament. Eternal securists do not honestly face these passages because they do not jibe with their presupposed doctrine of "once saved, always saved."
Dr. Walter
New Member
No! We do not accept YOUR INTERPRETATION of them because they flatly contradict the unambiguous explicitly clear denial of Jesus Christ "OF ALL that the father hath given me I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - Jn. 6:39
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
John 6:39 cannot mean what you make it to mean, because Judas was given to Christ by the Father, then lost.
You have a hard time proving that time.
How does eternal life cease from becoming eternal?
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Eternal life is found in the Lord Jesus Christ (I Jn. 5:20). It is not a thing, but it is a person. We have eternal life as long as we are in union with Christ. If we sever that union with Him by committing the sin of apostasy, we no longer have eternal life.
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