Practicing and or Continue to Sin

[psalms109:31]

1 John 3:9 (New International Version)

9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 3:9 (New American Standard Bible)

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

At what point is it that we are practicing sin or even continuing to sin?

I don't believe maturity comes when we believe a certain belief system that some think is right. Maturity is when this happens

Hebrews 6

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[Or from useless rituals] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

We should be past continue repenting to a point it is nothing but a useless ritual and relaying down the foundation of faith in God, you should have it. Instruction on how to baptize, about the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment you should know how and it.

Someone who is mature shouldn't be relaying down the foundation have faith in God because he doesn't have to concerned about it any more or is that he should be just doing it?

If he doesn't have to concerned about faith in God why does the writer of Hebrew say this earlier?

Hebrews 3:
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

 

[SolaSaint]

A practice or continuation of sin is a description of someone who isn't born of the Spirit. God will make a Christian so miserable in sin that they won't continue in it. I've been in sin before and God didn't allow me to continue, or if I did I was convicted to the point I was broken and turned back to God. I think we all go through this if we are honest. We won't reach perfection until we're on the other side, but we should make it our goal.

 

[percho]

I think 1 John 3:9 is correctly translated in the KJV. I think the same thought is found in Phil. 3:12 and Hebrews 11:40 and also Hebrews 6:1,3 relative to Phil.3:11 and Hebrews 11:35 which corresponds to 1 John 3:2 When he shall appear.

 

[jbh28]

I think 1 John 3:9 is correctly translated in the KJV. I think the same thought is found in Phil. 3:12 and Hebrews 11:40 and also Hebrews 6:1,3 relative to Phil.3:11 and Hebrews 11:35 which corresponds to 1 John 3:2 When he shall appear.

I John is in the context of current, not future. It's isn't saying we will one day not sin, but currently today. The "commit" in the KJV is from a Greek work that is continuous in action, not just a one time event. It isn't saying that we will never sin, but that we should make it a habitual happit. More correctly, one "born of God"(regenerated Christian) will not make a practice of sinning here currently. SolaSaint summed it up very well.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust in Jesus

I know what it is like to have and have a hedge of protection around me, where people will go after me, but fail. I know what it is like to lose it all in one day, when the hedge of protection is removed. I know what is like to receive it back. I thought I was better than most, and thinking highly of my self. To God no matter how mature we are or think we are. We are still children to God with more to be taught. Many of us are in habitual sin and or continual sin. We are not complete and we will sin, because we are still in this flesh. We are going to fall down flat on our face and we get up and get right back on it. We do learn from God even when we make mistakes. Don’t put yourself in a situation that you start thinking you are an utter failure because you can’t reach a bar that is to high, just trust in Jesus to get you where you can’t reach.

 

[jbh28]

I know what it is like to have and have a hedge of protection around me, where people will go after me, but fail. I know what it is like to lose it all in one day, when the hedge of protection is removed. I know what is like to receive it back. I thought I was better than most, and thinking highly of my self. To God no matter how mature we are or think we are. We are still children to God with more to be taught. Many of us are in habitual sin and or continual sin. We are not complete and we will sin, because we are still in this flesh. We are going to fall down flat on our face and we get up and get right back on it. We do learn from God even when we make mistakes. Don’t put yourself in a situation that you start thinking you are an utter failure because you can’t reach a bar that is to high, just trust in Jesus to get you where you can’t reach.

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

One sign of a saved person is that they will be convicted of their sin and won't be in habitual sin. I John 3:9. This isn't because of you, or something good about you, but because "His seed abides" in you. You have been regenerated. That's why one "born of God" will not be in habitual sin for long periods of time without having conviction of the spirit.

 

[psalms109:31]

Who believe

I only see Christ without sin and those who are in the body of Christ. When we are not in that body we will fail. We need Christ and the Body to help us.

1 Corinthians 15:
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[Isaiah 22:13] 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

Romans 12
Living Sacrifices
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[Or reasonable] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[Or in agreement with the]faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

 

[percho]

I John is in the context of current, not future. It's isn't saying we will one day not sin, but currently today. The "commit" in the KJV is from a Greek work that is continuous in action, not just a one time event. It isn't saying that we will never sin, but that we should make it a habitual happit. More correctly, one "born of God"(regenerated Christian) will not make a practice of sinning here currently. SolaSaint summed it up very well.

When is, [The present tense (which has a continues aspect)] relative to in this passage? Will there ever be a time in eternity when we can not sin? Paul said there is none righteous no not one. Presently our righteousness is in Christ but will there ever be a time in eternity when all our acts are righteous? Read Adam Clarke's commentary on 1 John 2:29 and it belonging to chapter 3 which I agree with. However he thinks the context changes in verse 29 I say it changes in verse 28 and the present tense which has a continues aspect is relative to the appearing of Christ which is relative to born of God see Luke 20:36.

 

[jbh28]

When is, [The present tense (which has a continues aspect)] relative to in this passage?

Currently, right now

Will there ever be a time in eternity when we can not sin?

Yes, glorification

Paul said there is none righteous no not one. Presently our righteousness is in Christ but will there ever be a time in eternity when all our acts are righteous?

After glorification, not now.

Read Adam Clarke's commentary on 1 John 2:29 and it belonging to chapter 3 which I agree with. However he thinks the context changes in verse 29 I say it changes in verse 28 and the present tense which has a continues aspect is relative to the appearing of Christ which is relative to born of God see Luke 20:36.

You are correct, it's verse 28. I just looked it up in my ESVSB and it has the section starting in chapter 2:28 entitled "Children of God."
I read a little bit of what he wrote. Saw this and can't image what kind of logic is behind this statement.

he could not mean their election to eternal life, since many of them were living disorderly

Where in the Bible does it say that the "elect" will always live orderly.

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.

We know he is speaking to Christians "brothers."

 

[Webers_Home]

Response to psalms109:31

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RE: 1John 3:9 & 1John 5:18

I much prefer the KJV which goes like this:

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

†. 1John 5:18 . .We know that whosoever is born of God does not sin

The author of those two verses is the same author of these next two verses:

†. 1John 1:8 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

†. 1John 1:10 . . If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Obviously then, born-again Christians not only do sin; but are fully expected to sin. So how do we harmonize 1John 3:9 and 1John 5:18 with 1John 1:8 and 1John 1:10? Piece of cake.

A male coyote pup is born with a male coyote's nature because its daddy is a coyote. So then, it looks like a coyote, it walks like a coyote, it thinks like a coyote, it has the instincts of a coyote, and eventually it will hunt like a coyote, and yip and howl like a coyote, and be attracted to girl coyotes.

What I'm getting at is this: Jesus testified that a Spirit birth produces a Spirit kind of offspring (John 3:3-8). So then, a Spirit kind of offspring ought to take after its Spirit daddy in somewhat the same way as a coyote whelp takes after its coyote daddy.

Is God's Spirit sinless? Yes. So then, that which is born of God's Spirit is sinless too: it can't be any other way.

The trick is: born-again Christians exist (on earth) as two creatures with the same identity; and the reason for that is because they've undergone two beginnings— the father of their first beginning was Adam, and the father of their second beginning was God; but their first beginning didn't go away at the moment of their second beginning. All the while they remain on the earth in an Adamic body, they will also have an Adamic nature and it's that Adamic nature that sins, not the Spirit's nature.

Their first beginning is utterly, and hopelessly sinful, while their second beginning is utterly, and hopelessly sinless; ergo: their second beginning cannot sin, nor does it even have a propensity to sin, nor even so much as a wish to sin. The problem is that it's impossible to detect the presence of that second beginning with any of the five natural human senses because second beginnings are supernatural rather than natural— that is: they're not of this earth —so inexperienced born-again Christian are often unaware of their second self until somebody tells them about it.

At death, born-again Christians shed their first beginning like a dead skin and go into eternity only as their second beginning. The whole process is a miraculous surgical procedure.

†. Col 2:11 . . In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh.

People who fail to avail themselves of that miraculous circumcision will go into eternity as an Adam-born creature rather than a Spirit-born creature; and according to both Christ and Paul, Adam-born creatures cannot inherit the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-8, 1Cor 15:50)

†. 2Cor 5:17 . . If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The Adam-born side of a born-again Christian is not "in" Christ; no, it's in Adam and it stays in Adam; sinning merrily away till the day of the born-again Christian's demise.

†. 1Cor 15:55-57 . . O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory in our Lord Jesus Christ.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[jbh28]

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RE: 1John 3:9 & 1John 5:18

I much prefer the KJV which goes like this:

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

†. 1John 5:18 . .We know that whosoever is born of God does not sin

The author of those two verses is the same author of these next two verses:

†. 1John 1:8 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

†. 1John 1:10 . . If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Obviously then, born-again Christians not only do sin; but are fully expected to sin. So how do we harmonize 1John 3:9 and 1John 5:18 with 1John 1:8 and 1John 1:10? Piece of cake.

A male coyote pup is born with a male coyote's nature because its daddy is a coyote. So then, it looks like a coyote, it walks like a coyote, it thinks like a coyote, it has the instincts of a coyote, and eventually it will hunt like a coyote, and yip and howl like a coyote, and be attracted to girl coyotes.

What I'm getting at is this: Jesus testified that a Spirit birth produces a Spirit kind of offspring (John 3:3-8). So then, a Spirit kind of offspring ought to take after its Spirit daddy in somewhat the same way as a coyote whelp takes after its coyote daddy.

Is God's Spirit sinless? Yes. So then, that which is born of God's Spirit is sinless too: it can't be any other way.

The trick is: born-again Christians exist (on earth) as two creatures with the same identity; and the reason for that is because they've undergone two beginnings— the father of their first beginning was Adam, and the father of their second beginning was God; but their first beginning didn't go away at the moment of their second beginning. All the while they remain on the earth in an Adamic body, they will also have an Adamic nature and it's that Adamic nature that sins, not the Spirit's nature.

Their first beginning is utterly, and hopelessly sinful, while their second beginning is utterly, and hopelessly sinless; ergo: their second beginning cannot sin, nor does it even have a propensity to sin, nor even so much as a wish to sin. The problem is that it's impossible to detect the presence of that second beginning with any of the five natural human senses because second beginnings are supernatural rather than natural— that is: they're not of this earth —so inexperienced born-again Christian are often unaware of their second self until somebody tells them about it.

At death, born-again Christians shed their first beginning like a dead skin and go into eternity only as their second beginning. The whole process is a miraculous surgical procedure.

†. Col 2:11 . . In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh.

People who fail to avail themselves of that miraculous circumcision will go into eternity as an Adam-born creature rather than a Spirit-born creature; and according to both Christ and Paul, Adam-born creatures cannot inherit the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-8, 1Cor 15:50)

†. 2Cor 5:17 . . If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The Adam-born side of a born-again Christian is not "in" Christ; no, it's in Adam and it stays in Adam; sinning merrily away till the day of the born-again Christian's demise.

†. 1Cor 15:55-57 . . O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory in our Lord Jesus Christ.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

I've heard this interpretation before. In my opinion, its a major stretch to be splitting Christians up like they are schizophrenic. It makes the whole passage to be pointless. If that is what is attempting to be said, it is poorly worded. It doesn't say that our one nature sins and our other nature doesn't sin, it speaks "one born of God" as a person committing sins. Understanding "committing" as a continuation, not a singular event, seems to me to be a much better interpretation.

Look at vss 9-10
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Whosoever is born of God - born again Christians, not just a new nature of a Christian. This will become more evident later.

doth not commit sin - commit being understood as a continuous action, not a one time event. Obviously, a Christian will commit sin, but it should not be a habitual action.

for his seed remaineth in him. - The spirit is in us. We are now new creatures. We have been re-born. We have been regenerated. This is why we cannot commit sin(in the habitual sense) because we have a new nature and spirit to convict us of our sins.

and he cannot sin - In the same sense of "commit sin."

because he is born of God. - Christians are "born again." as Jesus speaks about in John 3. The one "born of God" is the Christian.

Here is why I think my previous interpretation is correct.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: The comparison is not between the Christian's natures, but between the "children of God, and the "children of the devil." The one that is committing sin is evidence that he is a "child of the devil".

whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - again, this is a comparison between the children of God and the children of the devil.

 

[Webers_Home]

Input

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John's first epistle was penned to an elite category of Christians clearly identified as believers in possession of eternal life before the letter arrived. Note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb in this next passage; it's present tense rather than future, indicating that believers have eternal life right now— no delay and no waiting period.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life

So then the only people on earth able to correctly harmonize 1John 3:9 and 1John 5:18 with 1John 1:8 and 1John 1:10 are believers currently in possession of eternal life as were the people to whom John penned his first epistle.

In addition, according to God's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to His own son, people passing themselves off as Christians, while not possessing eternal life, do not have His son; in other words, they are christless Christians.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . .And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; whoever does not have this life, does not have God's son.

A Christian without God's son is a fake sheep.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

So then, there are two basic categories of Christians on this earth: the Living and the Dead. Christians who have eternal life are the living; Christians who don't have eternal life exist in a state of death.

†. Rom John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life.

Christians who refuse to accept what John wrote at 1John 5:11-12 openly insinuate that the Bible's God is a person of questionable integrity who cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

†. 1John 5:9-12 . .We accept human testimony; but God's testimony carries more weight because it's the testimony of God, which He has given about His son. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; whoever does not have this life, does not have God's son.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Webers_Home]

Response to jbh28

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RE: I've heard this interpretation before. In my opinion, its a major stretch to be splitting Christians up like they are schizophrenic.

Schizophrenia is not really the correct metaphor. It is far more accurate to describe born-again Christians as having a multiple personality disorder: the one personality is called the old man (a.k.a. the flesh) and the other personality is called the new man (a.k.a. the Spirit). These two personalities have nothing in common and so do not get along; thus causing born-again Christians a fair amount of inner conflict.

†. Gal 5:16-18 . . I say then: walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

This is one of the supernatural aspects of Christianity that pretty good numbers of Christians have a hard time digesting. But if they cannot wrap their minds around it, then I would suggest that they at least take comfort in knowing that their old man is reckoned crucified with Christ so that when they leave the earth their old man stays here, and they go out only as their new man— the sinless man whose daddy is God's Spirit as per John 3:3-8.

†. Gal Rom 6:5-7 . . For we know that our old man was crucified with Christ so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[jbh28]

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RE: I've heard this interpretation before. In my opinion, its a major stretch to be splitting Christians up like they are schizophrenic.

Schizophrenia is not really the correct metaphor. It is far more accurate to describe born-again Christians as having a multiple personality disorder: the one personality is called the old man (a.k.a. the flesh) and the other personality is called the new man (a.k.a. the Spirit). These two personalities have nothing in common and so do not get along; thus causing born-again Christians a fair amount of inner conflict.

†. Gal 5:16-18 . . I say then: walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

This is one of the supernatural aspects of Christianity that pretty good numbers of Christians have a hard time digesting. But if they cannot wrap their minds around it, then I would suggest that they at least take comfort in knowing that their old man is reckoned crucified with Christ so that when they leave the earth their old man stays here, and they go out only as their new man— the sinless man whose daddy is God's Spirit as per John 3:3-8.

†. Gal Rom 6:5-7 . . For we know that our old man was crucified with Christ so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin

C.L.I.F.F.
/

I understand the two natures of the believers(flesh vs spirit). My point is that the text in no way supports that it is speaking of only the spirit in I John, of when I showed why in my previous post.

 

[Darrenss1]

The trick is: born-again Christians exist (on earth) as two creatures with the same identity; and the reason for that is because they've undergone two beginnings— the father of their first beginning was Adam, and the father of their second beginning was God; but their first beginning didn't go away at the moment of their second beginning. All the while they remain on the earth in an Adamic body, they will also have an Adamic nature and it's that Adamic nature that sins, not the Spirit's nature.

Their first beginning is utterly, and hopelessly sinful, while their second beginning is utterly, and hopelessly sinless; ergo: their second beginning cannot sin, nor does it even have a propensity to sin, nor even so much as a wish to sin. The problem is that it's impossible to detect the presence of that second beginning with any of the five natural human senses because second beginnings are supernatural rather than natural— that is: they're not of this earth —so inexperienced born-again Christian are often unaware of their second self until somebody tells them about it.

At death, born-again Christians shed their first beginning like a dead skin and go into eternity only as their second beginning. The whole process is a miraculous surgical procedure.

I was taught this explanation years ago by a very well read bible scholar and have never found any reason to question it. :thumbs:

Darren

 

[percho]

Luke 20:35,36 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being the sons of the resurrection."

I believe one previous poster agreed that at the time in bold and underlined above we will then be unable to sin again and will be made complete/perfect in righteousness.

Is the above underlined and in bold the same moment in time as this? 1 Cor. 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Do you think the age in Luke and the kingdom in 1 Cor is taking of the same thing?

In 1 John 2:28 is the moment above spoken of relative to righteousness and birth in verse 29? In 3:1 does he revert back to the present time of his writing that we are called the sons of God? Why? See Romans 8 we have the Spirit of adoption making us heirs (of something spoken of above) yet we are waiting for the adoption. I believe Eph 1:13,14 says the same.

Does anyone beside me see a birth spoken of in Luke 20:36?

 

[Webers_Home]

Input

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I think the reason so many Christians have trouble with Luke 20:27-38, Mrk 12:18-27, and Mtt 22:23-32 is because it is a tailor-made response that God prepared in advance specifically for the mentality of a Sadducee.

The reason I say "God" tailor-made it is because Jesus never spoke as an independent prophet but rather spoke only what his Father coached him to speak.

†. John 3:34 . . For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

†. John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

†. John 12:49 . . For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a mandate, what to say, and what to speak.

Sadducees did not accept the survival of the soul beyond the death of one's body; nor did they believe in a physical resurrection; so their question was a sarcastic mockery of the Jews' belief in both. It's like the age-old question: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Anyway, the primary focus of Luke 27-38, Mrk 12:18-27, and Mtt 22:23-32 is upon sex in heaven. The original purpose of sex was procreation. Since everyone will be immortal in heaven (John 6:50-51, 1Cor 15:51-54) then it won't be necessary to procreate in order to ensure the survival of the race. In some religions, the men expect to have harems in the afterlife; but neither Christians nor Jews are taught to expect any such thing.

The Sadducees should have already known the answer to their own question since Daniel's prophecy clearly predicts that the bodies of the righteous will rise to immortality.

†. Dan 12:2 . . And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The phrase "them that sleep in the dust of the earth" refers to man's physical body rather than his soul.

†. Gen 3:19 . . In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Man's soul wasn't derived from the dust of the earth (Gen 2:7) so when his body expires, man's soul doesn’t return to the dust of the earth along with his body, but rather, is remanded to its creator's custody.

†. Eccl 12:7 . . Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So then, since the physical bodies of the righteous shall be raised to immortality, then the Sadducees should have known without being told that the righteous will not be engaging in sexual activity.

Jesus said the Sadducees didn't "know" the scriptures. Actually they knew the scriptures by heart, but they were unable to reason from the scriptures. Reasoning from the scriptures is a whole lot different than just having them memorized. I was able to work with algebraic equations when I was in high school; but I lacked the IQ to use algebra to solve written problems. The Sadducees were a lot like that in their Bible skills. They knew it, but they lacked the spiritual acumen to apply it.

Jesus' statement that the righteous will be equal with the angels is interesting since man was originally created below the rank of angels.

†. Ps 8:4-5 . . What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visit him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and yet crowned him with glory and honor.

But even more shocking than that to the mind of a Sadducee is man's elevation to the rank of not God's subjects, but rather; His kin.

†. Luke 20:36 . . for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God.

†. Rom 8:15-16 . . For you have not received a spirit of slavery again to fear; but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Dad! Father. The Spirit himself corroborates our spirit, that we are the children of God.

BTW: the spirit of adoption always compels its recipients to call out to a father, never to a mother.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[percho]

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I think the reason so many Christians have trouble with Luke 20:27-38, Mrk 12:18-27, and Mtt 22:23-32 is because it is a tailor-made response that God prepared in advance specifically for the mentality of a Sadducee.

The reason I say "God" tailor-made it is because Jesus never spoke as an independent prophet but rather spoke only what his Father coached him to speak.

†. John 3:34 . . For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

†. John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

†. John 12:49 . . For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a mandate, what to say, and what to speak.

Sadducees did not accept the survival of the soul beyond the death of one's body; nor did they believe in a physical resurrection; so their question was a sarcastic mockery of the Jews' belief in both. It's like the age-old question: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Anyway, the primary focus of Luke 27-38, Mrk 12:18-27, and Mtt 22:23-32 is upon sex in heaven. The original purpose of sex was procreation. Since everyone will be immortal in heaven (John 6:50-51, 1Cor 15:51-54) then it won't be necessary to procreate in order to ensure the survival of the race. In some religions, the men expect to have harems in the afterlife; but neither Christians nor Jews are taught to expect any such thing.

The Sadducees should have already known the answer to their own question since Daniel's prophecy clearly predicts that the bodies of the righteous will rise to immortality.

†. Dan 12:2 . . And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The phrase "them that sleep in the dust of the earth" refers to man's physical body rather than his soul.

†. Gen 3:19 . . In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Man's soul wasn't derived from the dust of the earth (Gen 2:7) so when his body expires, man's soul doesn’t return to the dust of the earth along with his body, but rather, is remanded to its creator's custody.

†. Eccl 12:7 . . Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So then, since the physical bodies of the righteous shall be raised to immortality, then the Sadducees should have known without being told that the righteous will not be engaging in sexual activity.

Jesus said the Sadducees didn't "know" the scriptures. Actually they knew the scriptures by heart, but they were unable to reason from the scriptures. Reasoning from the scriptures is a whole lot different than just having them memorized. I was able to work with algebraic equations when I was in high school; but I lacked the IQ to use algebra to solve written problems. The Sadducees were a lot like that in their Bible skills. They knew it, but they lacked the spiritual acumen to apply it.

Jesus' statement that the righteous will be equal with the angels is interesting since man was originally created below the rank of angels.

†. Ps 8:4-5 . . What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visit him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and yet crowned him with glory and honor.

But even more shocking than that to the mind of a Sadducee is man's elevation to the rank of not God's subjects, but rather; His kin.

†. Luke 20:36 . . for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God.

†. Rom 8:15-16 . . For you have not received a spirit of slavery again to fear; but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Dad! Father. The Spirit himself corroborates our spirit, that we are the children of God.

BTW: the spirit of adoption always compels its recipients to call out to a father, never to a mother.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Was this an answer to my five questions?

 

[percho]

.
I think the reason so many Christians have trouble with Luke 20:27-38, Mrk 12:18-27, and Mtt 22:23-32 is because it is a tailor-made response that God prepared in advance specifically for the mentality of a Sadducee.

The reason I say "God" tailor-made it is because Jesus never spoke as an independent prophet but rather spoke only what his Father coached him to speak.

†. John 3:34 . . For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

†. John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

†. John 12:49 . . For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a mandate, what to say, and what to speak.

Sadducees did not accept the survival of the soul beyond the death of one's body; nor did they believe in a physical resurrection; so their question was a sarcastic mockery of the Jews' belief in both. It's like the age-old question: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Anyway, the primary focus of Luke 27-38, Mrk 12:18-27, and Mtt 22:23-32 is upon sex in heaven. The original purpose of sex was procreation. Since everyone will be immortal in heaven (John 6:50-51, 1Cor 15:51-54) then it won't be necessary to procreate in order to ensure the survival of the race. In some religions, the men expect to have harems in the afterlife; but neither Christians nor Jews are taught to expect any such thing.

The Sadducees should have already known the answer to their own question since Daniel's prophecy clearly predicts that the bodies of the righteous will rise to immortality.

†. Dan 12:2 . . And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The phrase "them that sleep in the dust of the earth" refers to man's physical body rather than his soul.

†. Gen 3:19 . . In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Man's soul wasn't derived from the dust of the earth (Gen 2:7) so when his body expires, man's soul doesn’t return to the dust of the earth along with his body, but rather, is remanded to its creator's custody.

†. Eccl 12:7 . . Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So then, since the physical bodies of the righteous shall be raised to immortality, then the Sadducees should have known without being told that the righteous will not be engaging in sexual activity.

Jesus said the Sadducees didn't "know" the scriptures. Actually they knew the scriptures by heart, but they were unable to reason from the scriptures. Reasoning from the scriptures is a whole lot different than just having them memorized. I was able to work with algebraic equations when I was in high school; but I lacked the IQ to use algebra to solve written problems. The Sadducees were a lot like that in their Bible skills. They knew it, but they lacked the spiritual acumen to apply it.

Jesus' statement that the righteous will be equal with the angels is interesting since man was originally created below the rank of angels.

†. Ps 8:4-5 . . What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visit him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and yet crowned him with glory and honor.

But even more shocking than that to the mind of a Sadducee is man's elevation to the rank of not God's subjects, but rather; His kin.

†. Luke 20:36 . . for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God.

†. Rom 8:15-16 . . For you have not received a spirit of slavery again to fear; but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Dad! Father. The Spirit himself corroborates our spirit, that we are the children of God.

BTW: the spirit of adoption always compels its recipients to call out to a father, never to a mother.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

I do not see where any question of the soul after death enters into any of the scriptures quoted.

 

[Webers_Home]

Response to percho

.
RE: I do not see where any question of the soul after death enters into any of the scriptures quoted.

Did you examine Luke 20:27-38, Mrk 12:18-27, and Mtt 22:23-32 ?

In his closing remarks, Jesus said this:

†. Mark 12:26-27 . . And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke and Matthew say essentially the same thing. In other words, though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are all deceased, they did not go out of existence when their bodies expired. Jesus' statement countered the Sadducee's belief that one's soul does not survive the death of their body.

Again I want to emphasize that Luke 20:27-38, Mrk 12:18-27, and Mtt 22:23-32 target the mentality of a Sadducee which essentially refuses to accept the survival of the soul beyond the death of one's body; nor believes in a physical resurrection. Luke 20:27-38, Mrk 12:18-27, and Mtt 22:23-32 are properly interpreted from that aspect.

C.L.I.F.F.
/