"Dialing for Dollars" or is that "Converts?"

[TomVols]

Tom, just so I understand, are you saying (I'd agree if you are) that sometimes it's better to do nothing than do something that would be damaging or wrong? The order of the words is throwing me a bit.

When it comes to dealing with souls, there are some things which actually not better than doing nothing.

You make a great point about the retention. The back door must be twice as wide as the front door. I know many churches who claim numbers of baptisms that are huge relative to the size of the aboutchurch, yet the church attendance remains the same. One church I know of locally sees their numbers go down! I'd argue this shows what we really believe about the Christian life. If it"s just about "fire insurance," then dip 'em and drop 'em. But it's all about much more than that.

 

[Tom Butler]

I apologize for my lack of clarity.

I am not advocating doing nothing. I am advocating things which meet the biblical test.

I am talking about the abuse of such things as the Sinner's Prayer. I have no doubt that if a lost sinner prays to God for mercy and salvation in repentance and faith, God will answer that prayer.

When it is corrupted into some magic words, 1-2-3-repeat-after-me, then it is better to remain silent. I shudder when I hear someone say that their hope of heaven is "I said the prayer."

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

With All That Said.......

With all that said I guess I should clarify a few things about myself. I DO NOT believe in "easy believism" or as David Cloud would say,"quick prayerism" and I DO NOT believe in nor approve of any soulwinning method that does not highlight nor stress the need for true Biblical repentance as a key element in the presentation of the Gospel.I very definitely believe that where there is no evidence of a change of life and direction there is likely no true conversion. All I was trying to get across,(and I apparently did not in a clear and adequate way)is that any presentation of the Gospel should include the use of the scriptures as the means of presenting the truth (since they ARE the truth)(John 17:17)and that even if the method employed is not the best in the world as long as the scriptural truth of the death,burial and resurrection of our Lord is clearly presented as the ONLY means whereby one can or must be saved then the Holy Spirit can take the seed of the Word and plant it in the heart of the hearer and bring it to fruition. It is the Spirit that must "turn the lights on" so to speak. I dare say that He can use even a flawed method to reach someone if the "Truth" is contained therein.BUT....and this is a big BUT....I do believe that the basic elements of the "Truth" must be contained in whatever the presentation method may be.These basic elements are(as I understand it) true repentance (turning from sin unto God)Mk 1:15 and faith toward God through the Gospel,1 Cor.15:3-4 whereby we are washed and cleansed of our sins by His precious Blood,Col.1:14. Having been in sales work I also will acknowledge that there is a tendency on the part of folk who are too preoccupied with NUMBERS (both in business AND church)to try to take shortcuts to INFLATE those numbers and sadly there have been many in the last few generations who have applied sales gimmicks to soulwinning (whereby many have been DECEIVED). I just simply (hard for me I'm afraid) meant to say that even with their flaws I am sure there have been some genuine salvations in the midst of the bad techniques due to the fact that it is the Holy Spirit who reaches out to and speaks to the hearts of the hearers of the Word.Christ is THE MESSAGE and we are simply the messengers. Some are simply better messengers than others. I do agree though that with the nature of the message we offer to this world being as critical as it is we should make EVERY attempt to be very careful that we are faithful and accurate in our delivery. We can expect that Satan will fight us in every way and means possible to him because he most certainly does NOT want us to succeed in our calling and ministry as witnesses. God bless you as you serve Him.

Bro.Gregory Perry Sr.
Pickens,SC

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

By the way Bro.Butler....

I meant to also say that I definitely agree with how you feel about the 1-2-3 repeat after me type of praying.....scares me too. That ANYBODY could feel assured of salvation hanging by that kind of "thread" is just amazing to me. I know "whom I have believed...." and I still have days from time to time when I have to ask myself "How could I possibly be saved and do this or that or live this way or that way." thank God for his Grace and His unfathomable Mercy! I must admit that the upcoming JSOC causes me no small amount of discomfort. Some days I feel as if all that would be left of me after that day will be something resembling a wisp of smoke shaped like a man. We should all have a healthy "fear" of God.

Bro.Greg

 

[Rhetorician]

With all that said I guess I should clarify a few things about myself. I DO NOT believe in "easy believism" or as David Cloud would say,"quick prayerism" and I DO NOT believe in nor approve of any soulwinning method that does not highlight nor stress the need for true Biblical repentance as a key element in the presentation of the Gospel.I very definitely believe that where there is no evidence of a change of life and direction there is likely no true conversion. All I was trying to get across,(and I apparently did not in a clear and adequate way)is that any presentation of the Gospel should include the use of the scriptures as the means of presenting the truth (since they ARE the truth)(John 17:17)and that even if the method employed is not the best in the world as long as the scriptural truth of the death,burial and resurrection of our Lord is clearly presented as the ONLY means whereby one can or must be saved then the Holy Spirit can take the seed of the Word and plant it in the heart of the hearer and bring it to fruition. It is the Spirit that must "turn the lights on" so to speak. I dare say that He can use even a flawed method to reach someone if the "Truth" is contained therein.BUT....and this is a big BUT....I do believe that the basic elements of the "Truth" must be contained in whatever the presentation method may be.These basic elements are(as I understand it) true repentance (turning from sin unto God)Mk 1:15 and faith toward God through the Gospel,1 Cor.15:3-4 whereby we are washed and cleansed of our sins by His precious Blood,Col.1:14. Having been in sales work I also will acknowledge that there is a tendency on the part of folk who are too preoccupied with NUMBERS (both in business AND church)to try to take shortcuts to INFLATE those numbers and sadly there have been many in the last few generations who have applied sales gimmicks to soulwinning (whereby many have been DECEIVED). I just simply (hard for me I'm afraid) meant to say that even with their flaws I am sure there have been some genuine salvations in the midst of the bad techniques due to the fact that it is the Holy Spirit who reaches out to and speaks to the hearts of the hearers of the Word.Christ is THE MESSAGE and we are simply the messengers. Some are simply better messengers than others. I do agree though that with the nature of the message we offer to this world being as critical as it is we should make EVERY attempt to be very careful that we are faithful and accurate in our delivery. We can expect that Satan will fight us in every way and means possible to him because he most certainly does NOT want us to succeed in our calling and ministry as witnesses. God bless you as you serve Him.

Bro.Gregory Perry Sr.
Pickens,SC

Dear Sir:

Not as a point of argument but to clarify, should we not "preach the law" before we ask sinners if they want "to ask Jesus in their heart"? This is the model paradigm for the Reformation. Don't we have "to get them lost before we get them saved?" All want "to go to Heaven," but not many want "to repent"!!!

Give me some feedback if you will please.

"That is all!"

 

[Tom Butler]

Dear Sir:

Not as a point of argument but to clarify, should we not "preach the law" before we ask sinners if they want "to ask Jesus in their heart"? This is the model paradigm for the Reformation. Don't we have "to get them lost before we get them saved?" All want "to go to Heaven," but not many want "to repent"!!!

Give me some feedback if you will please.

"That is all!"

I know you put this to Mr. Perry, but I wanted to feed back my feedback.

"That is all" that needs to be said.

Your rhetorical questions answer themselves, Rhetorician.

(I've been waiting for an opportunity to use that last sentence, and you lobbed the big softball right into my wheelhouse.)

 

[saturneptune]

This type of side show nonsense has been going on for years. It just evolves with the times. Old techniques of pack a pew Sunday, high attendance day, and pot luck Sunday did not work either, and were just another gimmic. High dollar advertising campaigns for revivals really do not remind me of a Holy Spirit lead revival. I see very little interest among church members in telling others about the Gospel or outreach, but are very good at fellowship amongst themselves.

 

[dh1948]

I have no problem with the methods used by FBC Hammond in its efforts to bring people to Jesus. I do have a problem with any church's "repeat after me" evangelism. Believe you me, I have personally experienced baptizing lots of people in a year and most of them not being around the following year.

We criticize churches that baptize large numbers by raising the question of how many of them will be around in subsequent years. To be fair about it, we should also question how many of the 3 or 10 or 20 or 50 we baptized this year will be around next year.

It's sort of like throwing a hand full of mud against the wall. Some of it will slide right off; some of it will stick for a few minutes and then fall off; and some of it will harden and adhere for a long time.

 

[saturneptune]

I have no problem with the methods used by FBC Hammond in its efforts to bring people to Jesus. I do have a problem with any church's "repeat after me" evangelism. Believe you me, I have personally experienced baptizing lots of people in a year and most of them not being around the following year.

We criticize churches that baptize large numbers by raising the question of how many of them will be around in subsequent years. To be fair about it, we should also question how many of the 3 or 10 or 20 or 50 we baptized this year will be around next year.

It's sort of like throwing a hand full of mud against the wall. Some of it will slide right off; some of it will stick for a few minutes and then fall off; and some of it will harden and adhere for a long time.

Or like the sower of the four seeds that fell on different ground.

 

[percho]

For those that haven't find and read this book:

The Pearly Gates Syndicate;: Or, How to sell real estate in heaven

By Charles Merrill Smith

 

[DaleMcNamee]

"Dialing For Dollars" or Is That "Converts" ?

Hello All !

I saw the video and found it "cringeworthy". At first, I thought that it was something from TBN or a parody...But, it isn't.

Soul winning as "scalp collecting" :tear:

Where in the Bible is it written that one gets an earthly monetary reward... I thought that the reward was in Heaven ?

Like the Pharisees, who did everything for show,they have their reward already...$ 250.00 gift cards :tear:

 

[J.D.]

For those that haven't find and read this book:

The Pearly Gates Syndicate;: Or, How to sell real estate in heaven

By Charles Merrill Smith

Would you mind giving us a quick review of the book? Amazon has no customer comments on it. Thank you.

 

[jaigner]

Wait a minute, they baptized 25 K in one year then over a period of ten years the total would be more than 100,000. What was the population of Hammond again... Hmmm

Hammond is basically in suburban Chicago. It is a metropolitan area with literally millions and millions of people around.

Of course, at least since the days of Hyles, they have been preaching legalism and untruth. That tends to attract people.