Good Works Essential

[Thinkingstuff]

In nearly every contast given in this context, faith or believing is NEVER once contrasting to being a "Jew" but in contrast to "works" or "deeds."

Rom. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt


The man who is attempting to justify himself before God by his "deeds" is trying to place God in his "debt" as a worker would place his employer in his debt by putting in so many hours. He is requiring "pay" for his work.

Not only is this contrast between the "law of works" and "the law of faith" the only two alternatives given by Paul for justification, but he eliminates "the law of works" as a valid law to be justified before God.

This same TWO contrasting ways have been present since the Garden with "the way of Cain" versus "the way of the Lord" or "the broad way" versus the "narrow way" or the house built upon "sand" verus the house built upon "the rock" or salvation "by grace" versus "by works."

The "law of works" certainly includes the idea of becoming a Jew in order to be justified before God but that whole concept is based upon the idea that the Jew has the law of God and obedience by the Jew separates him from the Gentile and so the root or foundational problem is justification by "deeds".

Lets tiptoe on some points you haven't made about chapter 4

Under what circumstances was it credited?Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised...12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised...Against all hope Abraham in hope believed ...19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God...being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised

Where by he acted on all these things

Romans 6 - 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin....but the life he lives, he lives to God. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. the benefit you reap leads to holiness

Do you see the actions by faith? Also not in chapter 7 Paul makes a marriage analogy

4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

and what is this fruit we bear to god? Deeds, good works.

6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Under what circumstances was it credited?Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised...12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised...Against all hope Abraham in hope believed ...19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God...being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised

I don't know if I am getting your point. I see nothing above that conflicts with my definition of "the law of faith." You correctly place it PRIOR to any submission to external rites demonstrating that divine ordinances were not included. You correctly define it as excluding all personal assistance as in the birth of Isaac - so faith absence of personal actions. Faith incapable of assisting the impossible but only persuasion that what God has promised God alone will provide by His own power and that is then directly applied to our own justification by faith in the gospel (Rom. 4:22-25). This is a completed past action (Rom. 5:1-2) prior to any personal actions "by faith." Hence justifying faith has to do with the the OBJECT of faith not the actions produced by faith. This is what it means to follow in the steps of Abraham in regard to justification by faith.

Romans 6 - 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin....but the life he lives, he lives to God. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. the benefit you reap leads to holiness

Now you leap two whole chapters into a context about an already justified man before God. Yes, I believe the justified man will produce good works as he is a regenerated man and the fruit of regeneration is good works. Romans 6 declares this is the evidence of a justified man but notice not a word is said that this is how he is justified before God. What is produced by faith has nothing to do with justification before God as that is obtained solely by the OBJECT of faith. Hence, we cannot reverse cause and effects or make the effects inclusive in the cause as Romans 3:19-5:2 forbid that as that is justification "by the law of works."

 

[DHK]

It is my position that faith and good works are always inseparable. Faith without good works is dead. We believe and do good works by God's grace, so no human merit is involved in either case.

Always inseparable?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--They are separated here. So much so that they cannot exist together.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--They are separated here, so much so that they cannot exist together.
You either believe or you work in order to be counted for righteousness. You can't do both.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
--They are separated here, so much so that they cannot exist together.
It is not works of righteousness (good works); but the renewing of the Holy Spirit, and only the Holy Spirit that gives us salvation. Salvation is all of God.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--God doesn't even accept your good works. They are as filthy rags. You don't have good works before you are saved. They cannot save. Faith and good works do not go together because an unsaved person doesn't have any in the sight of God.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
--You don't have any more ability to do good in the sight of God, then a leopard has the ability to change the spots on his skin. Why are you deceiving yourself?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Originally Posted by adisciplinedlearner
It is my position that faith and good works are always inseparable. Faith without good works is dead. We believe and do good works by God's grace, so no human merit is involved in either case.

It does not matter! Faith saves no one, justifies no one. It is the object of faith rather than the works produced by faith that justifies. In regard to justification before God it is faith IN not faith BY that justifies. Hence, in justification it is faith WITHOUT works that justifies because justification is in the object.

Romans 4:19 defines justifying faith where NO ACTIONS BY FAITH are involved but only faith IN God, His promise, His power to COMPLETELY provide His promise and that is directy applied to justification by faith in God's promise and provision in Christ - Rom. 4:22-25.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

'Good works are essential'; the good tree produces good fruit; it cannot change from a bad tree into a good tree by producing good fruit; it is impossible because it is essentially impossible.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Always inseparable?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--They are separated here. So much so that they cannot exist together.
..........

GE:
I think you distort the text. The text definitely does not not say works and faith "cannot exist together". That is simply UNTRUE and very irresponsible to conclude. It only says for the purpose of justification, faith cannot be based on the best of a saved person's works however righteous and holy they or he may be. Even faith --- because faith too, is a work, cannot and does not save. Jesus Christ saves. WITHOUT MAN'S WORKS. That is what saved through faith without works means, because one is saved by faith IN CHRIST; not that faith and works "cannot exist together". In fact, faith nor works exist without one another.

 

[DHK]

GE:
I think you distort the text. The text definitely does not not say works and faith "cannot exist together". That is simply UNTRUE and very irresponsible to conclude. It only says for the purpose of justification, faith cannot be based on the best of a saved person's works however righteous and holy. Even faith --- because faith too, is a work, cannot and does not save. Jesus Christ saves. WITHOUT MAN'S WORKS. That is what saved through faith without works means, because one is saved by faith IN CHRIST; not that faith and works "cannot exist together". In fact, faith nor works exist without one another.

GE: In the OP here is what adisciplinedlearner stated:

Good works are essential to final salvation.

That is heresy.
Works has nothing to do with our salvation.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't know if I am getting your point. I see nothing above that conflicts with my definition of "the law of faith." You correctly place it PRIOR to any submission to external rites demonstrating that divine ordinances were not included. You correctly define it as excluding all personal assistance as in the birth of Isaac - so faith absence of personal actions. Faith incapable of assisting the impossible but only persuasion that what God has promised God alone will provide by His own power and that is then directly applied to our own justification by faith in the gospel (Rom. 4:22-25). This is a completed past action (Rom. 5:1-2) prior to any personal actions "by faith." Hence justifying faith has to do with the the OBJECT of faith not the actions produced by faith. This is what it means to follow in the steps of Abraham in regard to justification by faith.



Now you leap two whole chapters into a context about an already justified man before God. Yes, I believe the justified man will produce good works as he is a regenerated man and the fruit of regeneration is good works. Romans 6 declares this is the evidence of a justified man but notice not a word is said that this is how he is justified before God. What is produced by faith has nothing to do with justification before God as that is obtained solely by the OBJECT of faith. Hence, we cannot reverse cause and effects or make the effects inclusive in the cause as Romans 3:19-5:2 forbid that as that is justification "by the law of works."

So, then you admit works is a necissary result of faith which is all anybody is saying. In fact. I've been saved by grace so that I have faith. Justification and salvation are not equal. I am justified by my faith. My salvation is like my marriage. I was married by the preacher but I live in my marriage continuously since that day. My status changed on that day but I'm in a new relationship ever since then. And what ever I do in this new state is done as a married man. So is salvation.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE: In the OP here is what adisciplinedlearner stated:

That is heresy.
Works has nothing to do with our salvation.

GE:
Yes, DHK, except, be they ever so few or only faith, that they flow from our salvation.

 

[DHK]

So, then you admit works is a necissary result of faith which is all anybody is saying. In fact. I've been saved by grace so that I have faith. Justification and salvation are not equal. I am justified by my faith. My salvation is like my marriage. I was married by the preacher but I live in my marriage continuously since that day. My status changed on that day but I'm in a new relationship ever since then. And what ever I do in this new state is done as a married man. So is salvation.

Most people don't use the word "salvation" that way. It is too confusing. The day I was justified is the day that I was saved. That was the day that Christ gave me salvation, a one time act. Now I know what you are saying. But it is far better to use the words:
salvation,
sanctification,
glorification.

For in reality that is what you are speaking of. Why lump them all into one word, "salvation" and confuse everyone. Use the correct theological words that have the specific meanings associated with them. If you did HP wouldn't be so confused.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Good works are not meritorious before God, but they are essential to salvation. Faith without good works is dead, demonic faith.

 

[DHK]

Good works are not meritorious before God, but they are essential to salvation. Faith without good works is dead, demonic faith.

Unlearned men who wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction are foolish the Bible says.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Saved by Grace.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Good works are not meritorious before God, but they are essential to salvation. Faith without good works is dead, demonic faith.

Teaching works save you is demonic.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Salvation is NOT by human merit; it is by God's grace from start to finish.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

"Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY" (Jas. 2:24).

 

[Dr. Walter]

Salvation is NOT by human merit; it is by God's grace from start to finish.

Faith saves no one! Faith justifies no one! Demons have faith and it does not justify them. Demons have works and they do not justify them.

The only way a person is justified is faith placed in the object of the gospel provision and it is the provision as embraced by faith that justifies them. Justification is all about what faith is placed "IN" not about what is produced "BY" faith.

Certainly God produces works through us by His grace, but it is not works produced THROUGH US by his grace that justifies us as Romans 4:16-25 clearly denies. What justifies us is God's work THROUGH CHRIST in his life and death that justifies us as Romans 3:24-26 clearly demands.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Jesus Christ saves us! We love and serve Him by God's grace, so there is no place for boasting about ourselves at all.

 

[DHK]

"Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY" (Jas. 2:24).

Salvation is NOT by human merit; it is by God's grace from start to finish.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Your two above quotes contradict each other.
Either it is by grace or by works; it cannot be both.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Paul spells this out very clearly.
If it is by grace then works have nothing to do with salvation.
Grace and works cannot mix together. It is either one or the other. Choose one. One is accursed; the other is the true gospel message.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Jesus Christ saves us! We love and serve Him by God's grace, so there is no place for boasting about ourselves at all.

Justifying faith is the heart submitting and embracing the good news of the finished work of Jesus Christ as your only hope for complete satisfaction of all of God's righteous demands against sinners, as well as, full justification before God and reception of eternal life now IS THE PROMISE OF THE GOSPEL.

Those who have embraced this promise with their heart manifest their love for God "by" confessing it with their mouths and other "good" works as prompted by the Holy Spirit and their regenerate inward man that delights in the law of God.