Good Works Essential

[Dr. Walter]

How do you know this? How do you that God is not mysteriously at work in that person, accomplishing something over and above their simply "getting wet"?

Andre, would you at least admit that God must be at work within that individual prior to baptism or else they would not want to submit to baptism?

Would you admit that the reason they submit to baptism is because they already "with the heart" believe unto righteousness (Rom. 10:10) and in keeping with that belief they submit to baptism?

Furthermore, would you agree that Ephesians 2:10 demands that God's work of being created in Christ Jesus precedes "good works"?

Would you agree that all commands in Scripture to be baptized are passive in voice and therefore includes human beings in the administration without which it does not occur? Would they being doing a "good" or "bad" work in administering baptism? Would the candidate for baptism being submitting to a "good" or "bad" work? Where would you place it in Ephesians 2:10? Before the "unto" or after the "unto"???

 

[Andre]

Andre, would you at least admit that God must be at work within that individual prior to baptism or else they would not want to submit to baptism?

Would you admit that the reason they submit to baptism is because they already "with the heart" they believe unto righteousness (Rom. 10:10) and in keeping with that belief they submit to baptism?

Good questions - I will have to think about this.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Andre, I updated that post as you can see below with some additional questions.

Andre, would you at least admit that God must be at work within that individual prior to baptism or else they would not want to submit to baptism?

Would you admit that the reason they submit to baptism is because they already "with the heart" believe unto righteousness (Rom. 10:10) and in keeping with that belief they submit to baptism?

Furthermore, would you agree that Ephesians 2:10 demands that God's work of being created in Christ Jesus precedes "good works"?

Would you agree that all commands in Scripture to be baptized are passive in voice and therefore includes human beings in the administration without which it does not occur? Would they being doing a "good" or "bad" work in administering baptism? Would the candidate for baptism being submitting to a "good" or "bad" work? Where would you place it in Ephesians 2:10? Before the "unto" or after the "unto"???

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Good questions - I will have to think about this.

GE:
And while you think about it, think, for what draw in water-baptism into the picture at all? Especially since no one after the apostles are apostles.... and even more, since if baptised in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and born again by the Holy Spirit, of what necessity or good is water-baptism? How is it possible since there is "one baptism, one faith, one Lord" there are nevertheless two baptisms, one in the Name by the Holy Spirit, the other in water by fellow men and oneself?

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:
And while you think about it, think, for what draw in water-baptism into the picture at all? Especially since no one after the apostles are apostles.... and even more, since if baptised in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and born again by the Holy Spirit, of what necessity or good is water-baptism? How is it possible since there is "one baptism, one faith, one Lord" there are nevertheless two baptisms, one in the Name by the Holy Spirit, the other in water by fellow men and oneself?

There is no such thing as baptism in the Spirit today. It was temporary, historical and fulfilled. There is one baptism to day and it it is the same baptism Jesus submitted to, adminisered through his disciples and commissioned his church to administer until the end of the world.

Baptism in the Spirit had not occurred when the Great Commission was given but was still future after his ascension into heaven (Acts 1:5 "not many days hence").

The only kind of baptism in existence that he could "HAVE" commanded them to observe was water baptism in Matthew 28:19-20 as Spirit baptism was yet future (Acts 1:5). Water baptism is no more temporary than any other aspect of the Great Commission. It is no more temporary and done away as preaching the gospel or teaching them to observe all things commanded.

Neither baptism or the Lord's Supper are Apostolic ordinances but they are church ordinances. You are in error here and will remain in error as you long as you teach an ongoing baptism in the Spirit as no such thing exists today. The baptism in the Spirit was not an individual baptism but an institutional baptism that dedicated the new house of God and has occurred with the dedication of every new house of God since the tabernacle in Exodus 40.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There is no such thing as baptism in the Spirit today. It was temporary, historical and fulfilled. There is one baptism to day and it it is the same baptism Jesus submitted to, adminisered through his disciples and commissioned his church to administer until the end of the world.

Baptism in the Spirit had not occurred when the Great Commission was given but was still future after his ascension into heaven (Acts 1:5 "not many days hence").

The only kind of baptism in existence that he could "HAVE" commanded them to observe was water baptism in Matthew 28:19-20 as Spirit baptism was yet future (Acts 1:5). Water baptism is no more temporary than any other aspect of the Great Commission. It is no more temporary and done away as preaching the gospel or teaching them to observe all things commanded.

Neither baptism or the Lord's Supper are Apostolic ordinances but they are church ordinances. You are in error here and will remain in error as you long as you teach an ongoing baptism in the Spirit as no such thing exists today. The baptism in the Spirit was not an individual baptism but an institutional baptism that dedicated the new house of God and has occurred with the dedication of every new house of God since the tabernacle in Exodus 40.

GE:
This, I believe is the baptism by or in or with the Holy Spirit, with YOUR words, Dr Walter, "No one will WANT TO obey God .... until the tree is made good or they are given a new heart or a new WANT TO. The new birth provides the WILLINGNESS to serve God with the heart." This is the baptism that SAVES the lost; the ONLY "one baptism" of the Christian Faith.

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:
This, I believe is the baptism by or in or with the Holy Spirit, with YOUR words, Dr Walter, "No one will WANT TO obey God .... until the tree is made good or they are given a new heart or a new WANT TO. The new birth provides the WILLINGNESS to serve God with the heart." This is the baptism that SAVES the lost; the ONLY "one baptism" of the Christian Faith.

If that is true then you have a big problem GE! There was no baptism in the Spirit prior to Pentecost as every reference to the Baptism in the Spirit in the gospels is "future" tense and even Acts 1:5 is future tense "not many days hence."

Your problem is you have just denied regeneration to all Pre-Pentecost saints and yet even Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not knowing about the New birth (Jn.3:9).

GE all the scriptures that are used in the New Testament to teach total depravity are largely taken from the Old Testament prophets. How would those depraved sinners get a new WANT TO Ge????????? One error leads to other errors and you are on the road of error.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Now here is one concerning the heart.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

DW most likely would respond to God in the following manner. What are you thinking? Either you chose to give them one or they of necessity remain just as you created them!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Now here is one concerning the heart.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

DW most likely would respond to God in the following manner. What are you thinking? Either you chose to give them one or they of necessity remain just as you created them!

Sinners are responsible for their sins and they are responsible to repent which is a change of mind or heart. However, responsibility and willingness are two different questions. Just because I am responsible to do something does not mean I am willing to do it. Furthermore, if I am responsible for the consequences of sin, that does not mean that I am willing or able to reverse those consequences even though I am responsible for them. Can God hold me accountable then? Yes, if the consequences are the results of my own actions.

However, the truth is that ALL MANKIND are neither willing or able to repent and believe the Gospel. Their inabiltiy is not due to any outward coersion but inward coersion of their own heart and mind that is at enmity with god. So, the only thing that keeps any sinner from coming to Christ is their own free choice to resist and refuse.

This is the state of the whole human race (Psa. 14:2-3 as quoted in Romans 3:10-11) as "ALL the world" is descibed in such langauge (Rom. 3:19-20).

God is just to allow such to go on their way to destruction by their own free choice. God is merciful if he elects any unto salvation. Nothing but free will is the condemnation of the non-elect and nothing but free grace is the salvation of the elect as neither deserve it over the other and the elect would have freely chosen to continue in their ways of death if not for the grace of God. The question is not why God allows the non-elect to continue in their way to destruction but why God would choose to save one much less a number that cannot be numbered by human intelligence.

The elect are not coerced by any external force to repent and believe but they are given a new WANT TO (new heart and spirit) and it is "with the heart man beleiveth unto righteousness." God works IN them to both WILL and to DO His good pleasure.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If that is true then you have a big problem GE! There was no baptism in the Spirit prior to Pentecost as every reference to the Baptism in the Spirit in the gospels is "future" tense and even Acts 1:5 is future tense "not many days hence."

Your problem is you have just denied regeneration to all Pre-Pentecost saints and yet even Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not knowing about the New birth (Jn.3:9).

GE all the scriptures that are used in the New Testament to teach total depravity are largely taken from the Old Testament prophets. How would those depraved sinners get a new WANT TO Ge????????? One error leads to other errors and you are on the road of error.

GE:

Dr Walter, you write here as though I deny the 'rebirth' of God's elect. It's simply untrue. You conclude things about me I am a complete stranger to, sir. You put on paper ideas not mine but yours, as mine.

I say being reborn is being baptised by the Holy Spirit in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and being thus given a new heart and eternal life. I believe the rebirth happens like the wind blows; it may even happen unconsciously. It also may happen with the reborn person being acutely aware of it happening. Anywhichway, because regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit working ever effectively according to God's will AGAINST man's natural will. THIS IS THE ONLY BAPTISM OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH THAT SAVES.

I do not deny the once for all time fulfillment of the Promise- and Prophecy-Event of Pentecost which in totality was an Apostolic gift to begin the Christian Church with. Never in your life. All my life have I been contending for its uniqueness and unrepeatability. And that precisely is the grounds and foundation from which I depart for my belief that water-baptism is an Apostolic Gift to the Church for its birth into the world as the Body of Christ's Own each individual member of which AFTERWARDS must have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit whereby he would be reborn and become a member of the People of God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Now here is one concerning the heart.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

DW most likely would respond to God in the following manner. What are you thinking? Either you chose to give them one or they of necessity remain just as you created them!

GE:
HP, with one little BIG difference: Either you (God) chose to give them one NEW HEART, or they of necessity remain just as THEY, DEPRAVED.

 

[DHK]

GE:
And while you think about it, think, for what draw in water-baptism into the picture at all? Especially since no one after the apostles are apostles....

How many apostles were there?
What does the word apostle mean?
First, what is the Greek word, and what does the Greek word mean?
Second, what is the Latin word used in the Vulgate, and what does it mean?
What English word came from the Latin word that was used for apostle?

 

[quantumfaith]

Actually this is true.

:thumbs: Sure is good bit of "banning" going on around here.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE:
HP, with one little BIG difference: Either you (God) chose to give them one NEW HEART, or they of necessity remain just as THEY, DEPRAVED.

HP: The not so strange thing is that when we fulfill the conditions God set forth for salvation, our heart is purified from all sins that are past. Now that is new indeed!!:thumbs:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

How many apostles were there?
What does the word apostle mean?
First, what is the Greek word, and what does the Greek word mean?
Second, what is the Latin word used in the Vulgate, and what does it mean?
What English word came from the Latin word that was used for apostle?

GE:
In modern day idiom, DHK,
Q: How many apostles were there?
A: As many Christians there ever were.

Q: What does the word apostle mean?
A: Believers.

Q: First, what is the Greek word, and what does the Greek word mean?
A: 'baptidzoh', meaning: WATER with as many meanings as there may be denominations.

Q:Second, what is the Latin word used in the Vulgate, and what does it mean?
A: I guess more or less the same.

Q: What English word came from the Latin word that was used for apostle?
A: I don't know which word, but I do know which authority: 'pastor'.