Open Challenge

[Alive in Christ]

adisciplinedlearner...

How can you reconcile your view with the book of Acts and Cornelious?

The scripture says....

Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized, seeing as they have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have"

How clear does God have to make it?

These people have clearly been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they are regenerated and are now christians....yet they have not been water baptised yet.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

CHALLENGE #4: What must happen with the heart and mind of a person BEFORE they are not merely willing to be baptized but convinced they should be baptized? Can anyone be an unbeliever in the gospel and unrepentant of their sins and yet willing submit to baptism?

However, isn't this exactly your position that all candidates for baptism are still in unbelief in regard to their heart (Rom. 10:10) and therefore unrepentant toward sin as the Biblical order is always "repent and believe" the gospel?

GE:
"What must happen with the heart and mind of a person BEFORE they are not merely willing to be baptized but convinced they should be baptized?"

If that thing you are presupposing happened in all truth, would it be conditional the person must be further willing to be baptised or convinced he should be baptised also? In other words, is baptism the unconditional fruit of being reborn; or is the person not baptised yet, not reborn yet?— which is the logic of your argumentation.


Re:
“Can anyone be an unbeliever in the gospel and unrepentant of their sins and yet willing submit to baptism?”

Why ask the question? Rather ask, Can anyone be a believer in the gospel and repentant of his sins and yet has not submitted to water-baptism?

One repentant toward sin as the Biblical order is, always "repents and believes" the gospel.

‘The Biblical order’ under the apostles was, “repent and believe AND be baptised’. ‘Water’, ‘in water’ or, ‘with water’, is nowhere added. Because neither salvation nor faith requires one be baptized with water; only that he be baptized with the Holy Spirit and that means and requires and demands a person has been saved in truth once for all.

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:
"What must happen with the heart and mind of a person BEFORE they are not merely willing to be baptized but convinced they should be baptized?"

If that thing you are presupposing happened in all truth, would it be conditional the person must be further willing to be baptised or convinced he should be baptised also? In other words, is baptism the unconditional fruit of being reborn; or is the person not baptised yet, not reborn yet?— which is the logic of your argumentation.


Re:
“Can anyone be an unbeliever in the gospel and unrepentant of their sins and yet willing submit to baptism?”

Why ask the question? Rather ask, Can anyone be a believer in the gospel and repentant of his sins and yet has not submitted to water-baptism?

One repentant toward sin as the Biblical order is, always "repents and believes" the gospel.

‘The Biblical order’ under the apostles was, “repent and believe AND be baptised’. ‘Water’, ‘in water’ or, ‘with water’, is nowhere added. Because neither salvation nor faith requires one be baptized with water; only that he be baptized with the Holy Spirit and that means and requires and demands a person has been saved in truth once for all.

I have already repudiated your position concerning water baptism. Do we want to recover the same ground? Go back to the post where you and I discussed this issue already and you will see that you dropped out and could not answer my conclusions.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No. Salvation is a one time act. Obedience is progressive. Once you put the word "obey" in there you have just admitted to a works-based salvation. That is why it is written

Acts 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.

And repentance? That is the flip side of faith.

GE:
Yes, Salvation is a one time act of GOD'S through Christ, in Christ "to us-ward". Obedience is an all-time progressive act of GOD'S-- through a SAVED man-- in a saved and BEING saved (or 'sanctified') man. Holiness is of the Lord; all salvation is of the Lord. Christ is our only salvation and justification, our only righteousness and sanctification unto our glorification in the last day of His Coming and of our resurrection from the dead.

Repentance is a golden thread braided from end to end in the string of God's saving mercies.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I have already repudiated your position concerning water baptism. Do we want to recover the same ground? Go back to the post where you and I discussed this issue already and you will see that you dropped out and could not answer my conclusions.

GE:
So, your position amounts to the refutation or denial of my position which is, neither salvation nor faith requires one be baptized with water; only that he be baptized with the Holy Spirit and that means and requires and demands a person has been saved in truth once for all?

Fine; then that settles it, and makes the consequences of your position, quite clear, Dr Walter.

As Alive in Christ has said,
"Quote:
"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized, seeing as they have recieved the Holy Spirit just as we have"
.....
These people have clearly been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they are regenerated and are now christians....yet they have not been water baptised yet. "

 

[Dr. Walter]

The logic of my argument is very simple GE. No one will WANT TO obey God and be baptized or do any other good work until the tree is made good or they are given a new heart or a new WANT TO. The new birth provides the WILLINGNESS to serve God with the heart. If the new birth occurs in baptism then the candidate for baptism was unregenerate and thus baptism is the result of an evil tree and an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit (baptism).

My dear sir you are ignorant of the scriptures as water baptism is not an Apostolic ordinance but a church ordinance given to the church by Christ.

GE:
"What must happen with the heart and mind of a person BEFORE they are not merely willing to be baptized but convinced they should be baptized?"

If that thing you are presupposing happened in all truth, would it be conditional the person must be further willing to be baptised or convinced he should be baptised also? In other words, is baptism the unconditional fruit of being reborn; or is the person not baptised yet, not reborn yet?— which is the logic of your argumentation.


Re:
“Can anyone be an unbeliever in the gospel and unrepentant of their sins and yet willing submit to baptism?”

Why ask the question? Rather ask, Can anyone be a believer in the gospel and repentant of his sins and yet has not submitted to water-baptism?

One repentant toward sin as the Biblical order is, always "repents and believes" the gospel.

‘The Biblical order’ under the apostles was, “repent and believe AND be baptised’. ‘Water’, ‘in water’ or, ‘with water’, is nowhere added. Because neither salvation nor faith requires one be baptized with water; only that he be baptized with the Holy Spirit and that means and requires and demands a person has been saved in truth once for all.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The logic of my argument is very simple GE. No one will WANT TO obey God and be baptized or do any other good work until the tree is made good or they are given a new heart or a new WANT TO. The new birth provides the WILLINGNESS to serve God with the heart. If the new birth occurs in baptism then the candidate for baptism was unregenerate and thus baptism is the result of an evil tree and an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit (baptism).

My dear sir you are ignorant of the scriptures as water baptism is not an Apostolic ordinance but a church ordinance given to the church by Christ.

GE:
I'm afraid your logic surpasses my intellect so far I cannot make head or tail of what you say, Dr Walter.

Re: your first paragraph, I fully endorse (if I may)!

Re: your last paragraph, I was referring to Galatians; you talk about water baptism?

Besides: water-baptism is "a church ordinance", but, "given to the church by Christ"--- now does that mean water-baptism is a Church ordinance or a 'Christ-ordinance', 'given' by the Church, or 'given' by Christ? Water-baptism is "not an Apostolic ordinance" but yet it was "given to the church by Christ"?

It's futile attempt to try to grasp..... sorry. See why I say I rather would simply have to live with it. Which I do try to do I think for whatever it may be worth: It may save a lot of fruitless talk.

PS:

SORRY, WRONG THREAD! Too many threads at once ....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

GE:
"What must happen with the heart and mind of a person BEFORE they are not merely willing to be baptized but convinced they should be baptized?"

If that thing you are presupposing happened in all truth, would it be conditional the person must be further willing to be baptised or convinced he should be baptised also? In other words, is baptism the unconditional fruit of being reborn; or is the person not baptised yet, not reborn yet?— which is the logic of your argumentation.


Re:
“Can anyone be an unbeliever in the gospel and unrepentant of their sins and yet willing submit to baptism?”

Why ask the question? Rather ask, Can anyone be a believer in the gospel and repentant of his sins and yet has not submitted to water-baptism?

One repentant toward sin as the Biblical order is, always "repents and believes" the gospel.

‘The Biblical order’ under the apostles was, “repent and believe AND be baptised’. ‘Water’, ‘in water’ or, ‘with water’, is nowhere added. Because neither salvation nor faith requires one be baptized with water; only that he be baptized with the Holy Spirit and that means and requires and demands a person has been saved in truth once for all.

AMEN:thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

AMEN:thumbs:

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

They already received the Holy Spirit but nevertheless needed WATER for baptism. This proves that baptism after repentance and faith is WATER baptism not Spirit baptism.

Last, you make Spirit baptism equal to regeneration but baptism in the Spirit did not occur until Pentecost (Acts 1:5) but regeneration has occurred since the garden of Eden and those before Pentecost are chided for not understanding and knowing this (Jn. 3:9).

Hence, baptism in the Spirit and regeneration are not the same and neither is baptism by "water" the same as Spirit regeneration.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

They already received the Holy Spirit but nevertheless needed WATER for baptism. This proves that baptism after repentance and faith is WATER baptism not Spirit baptism.

Last, you make Spirit baptism equal to regeneration but baptism in the Spirit did not occur until Pentecost (Acts 1:5) but regeneration has occurred since the garden of Eden and those before Pentecost are chided for not understanding and knowing this (Jn. 3:9).

Hence, baptism in the Spirit and regeneration are not the same and neither is baptism by "water" the same as Spirit regeneration.

GE:

The ‘wind’ of the Holy Spirit blows where it wills, and no man can contain or condition its course or manifestation.

Dr Walter puts baptism with the Holy Spirit in his little box which he opens when he likes. He says the rebirth is no baptism with the Holy Spirit.

But no regeneration, no 'rebirth', ever --- before and after Pentecost --- happened otherwise than by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And there always were OTHER baptisms with the Holy Spirit besides the baptism with the Holy Spirit that may be identified as the rebirth or spiritual regeneration or new heart or new man whichever way described in words ever unable to tell exactly the reality of being baptised by the Holy Spirit or of being reborn.

What made Pentecost the special and specific instance of the baptism with the Holy Spirit was its SIGNIFICANCE AS PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT and APOSTOLIC-SPECIFIC ENDOWMENT with power and authority, ONCE, in the history of the Church of ALL TIME. For which purpose water-baptism was given an EXCLUSIVE Apostolic SIGN of power and authority.