-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Transgender and the church
- Thread starter freeatlast
- Start date
*Sigh* - Can I come over some time for a cup of condescension?
freeatlast
New Member
Hello jaigner,
There seems to be some confusion even in the medical field on this when you read about how often this happens or to what extent the deformation takes place. To my knowledge in everything I have read there has never been a person who has this that can totally live and carry out the normal function of both a male and female at the same time. What I mean by that is they cannot get pregnant and/or get someone pregnant.
I would say that if they can live as one gender or the other without using some sort of medical procedure or drugs to enhance that gender over the other and are not practicing unnatural sexual behavior then that is the gender that they should live with.
However in the discussion originally posted this person was clearly physically born a male.
In this case, I think the church was a bit too quick to bring someone into ministry. In our church, it would be YEARS before someone was put into a teaching position and that would be after getting to know them quite well. Something like this could still be hidden, I'm sure but once it was made known, it would be quickly rectified and not celebrated.
How could they not still be "living in sin" if they are living wrongly? They are a male living as a female and married to a man. That is sin. To say that we can choose the gender that best fits our bodily attributes is wrong. This was a male who needs to take hormones and needed surgery to become a female. There is no ambiguity there at all. We cannot choose what "best fits our bodily attributes". I make too much testosterone and not enough estrogen. Does that mean I should have chosen to live as a man?? No. God made me female - I have two X chromosomes. To choose to live as a man would be a sin.
Yes, this is not something questionable. This is clear in Scripture and even in most of society that something like this is wrong/abnormal. A church with solid teaching would have discipled their people enough that they would know sin when they see it. I would certainly hope that a couple that is "mature" enough to teach in a church would be mature enough to know the Scriptures. There has been plenty of time for this couple to know what sin is. If they deny that this is sin (and it's obvious they feel this way), then there is something quite wrong.
He's a dirtbag plain and simple.
Exactly. They both need a good footprint on the butt after following Biblical guidelines for confrontation, discipleship, teaching, repentance and restoration. That doesn't happen, then there's a big problem in the health of the church.
No. We cannot make people behave the way we want them to but just like cells in our body that will not obey the way they should and now begin to grow cancerous, we need to protect the rest of the body and remove them.
Well, "toss them to the street" is maybe another way to say "Hand them over to Satan"? I'd rather be tossed to the street than handed over to Satan but God has told us what to do.
So the church should just allow the couple to continue to teach and be in fellowship with the church and just tell everyone "Well, we're not to judge and it's up to the Holy Spirit." Is that Biblical? Maybe read 1 Corinthians 5 again.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Because there is nothing new under the sun. We Christians all have our fav sins that we like to judge more harshly than others.
Your church is different than mine. I was teaching VBS 5 minutes after I walked in the door, albeit under the guidance of a church member. Now, my case might be little bit different as I was previously known by several and a member in good standing at another church. However our church puts people to work almost the minute they are saved.
I don't know. This digs deeply into our definitions of what God means by forgiving all our sins.
You and I are going to have to disagree on this. Making too much testosterone is much different than being born with an overfeminized male body or vice versa because something didn't happen in the womb that should have.
This we agree on! But if a church isn't practicing proper church discipline in one case (and my own church would not and neither would any church I've attended here abouts), then they have no business applying it in the other.
I see this as a wide spread problem in the Baptist churches I'm associated with. There is no church discipline. So the root of the problem is within ourselves and not just the member who sins.
I don't think I ever said any of that. But the problem can be handled in a more gentle manner than just saying "don't darken the doors here again".
I see you cannot defend your position.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
I just wanted to comment on situations of ambiguous gender at birth. We've cleared up that it isn't 1:100 but rarer. The number is closer to 1:4500 (Link) which is smaller but obviously not insignificant.
Gender assignment at birth is a difficult decision. Children can have inconsistencies in external genitals, internal genitals (ovaries vs testicles), hormones (estrogen vs testosterone) and DNA (XX vs XY). And then there are those who are born with two sets of internal and/or external genitals or have ambiguous DNA (XO, XXY).
For parents, external genitals often predominate in their decision making because it is easier to understand from a lay and societal perspective. But from the medical perspective, internal genitals and hormones are often the main factors in their recommendation for future health because of their impact on things like fertility, secondary sex characteristics (changes at puberty) and the possibility of imprinting of the brain towards a gender during fetal development.
It is obviously a controversial topic and a very difficult decision for parents to make knowing that either decision will usually have large implications for social and medical issues for their child in later life. And many children in these situations do grow up unsatisfied with the choices made for them at birth.
Gender assignment at birth is a difficult decision. Children can have inconsistencies in external genitals, internal genitals (ovaries vs testicles), hormones (estrogen vs testosterone) and DNA (XX vs XY). And then there are those who are born with two sets of internal and/or external genitals or have ambiguous DNA (XO, XXY).
For parents, external genitals often predominate in their decision making because it is easier to understand from a lay and societal perspective. But from the medical perspective, internal genitals and hormones are often the main factors in their recommendation for future health because of their impact on things like fertility, secondary sex characteristics (changes at puberty) and the possibility of imprinting of the brain towards a gender during fetal development.
It is obviously a controversial topic and a very difficult decision for parents to make knowing that either decision will usually have large implications for social and medical issues for their child in later life. And many children in these situations do grow up unsatisfied with the choices made for them at birth.
Last edited by a moderator:
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Scripture is clear...
Leviticus 20:13 (KJV) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Whether one of them got an operation to make his or her body be opposite than that which God ordained, that person is still the same gender in God's eyes.
They are committing abominable acts, and I cannot see how one can say they are saved at all.
David wrote in the Psalms,
Psalms 66:18 (KJV) If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
God is not going to hear a cry for mercy and Salvation where one is unwilling to repent.
As far as this situation goes, I believe both were given over to a reprobate mind to work that which is unseemly.
Romans 1 states that though they know the judgment of God (Lev. 20:13) they do them anyway.
Leviticus 20:13 (KJV) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Whether one of them got an operation to make his or her body be opposite than that which God ordained, that person is still the same gender in God's eyes.
They are committing abominable acts, and I cannot see how one can say they are saved at all.
David wrote in the Psalms,
Psalms 66:18 (KJV) If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
God is not going to hear a cry for mercy and Salvation where one is unwilling to repent.
As far as this situation goes, I believe both were given over to a reprobate mind to work that which is unseemly.
Romans 1 states that though they know the judgment of God (Lev. 20:13) they do them anyway.
Fred's Wife
Member
Making a "profession of faith" doesn't mean that a person is saved. There are many sitting in church pews who have made professions of faith.
When one gets a sex change operation, that person is stating by his/her actions that God made a mistake in creating him/her female or male. Sex change operations may be legal but they are immoral and an abomination in the eyes of God. (Romans 1:19-32)
I don't believe that this couple should be allowed to carry on as if all is "normal"...because there is nothing "normal" about being a transgender and this is being deceitful. This type of situation is definitely not edifying to the other members of that church body. This couple should be disciplined according to 1 Corinthians 5.
4ever4Jesus
New Member
"out the door"
if i was going to This Church and found this out The leader was not the sex I thought He or she was I would just leave. then The only Thing i could do is pray fror that person. i would not be at a Church with A woman as The Head pastor to begin with.
if i was going to This Church and found this out The leader was not the sex I thought He or she was I would just leave. then The only Thing i could do is pray fror that person. i would not be at a Church with A woman as The Head pastor to begin with.
So, in your opinion, God made grave mstakes in births down through the years. Some were born deaf and dumb, blind, mentally defective and many other kinds of ill-births.
Again, we are not talking about homosexuality here. We are talking about human birth defects and medical corrections. I haven't read anyone defend homosexuality. I haven't read of anyone practicing a union outside the norm once the medical issue has been settled.
Then, if we believed that God created each person as some are suggesting, then we must also make God the author of sin, or at least deny original sin and the need for regeneration of a life that is dead in sin and trespasses.
Let's try and get some theological consistency here and now. Maybe a little maturity in dealing with real issues.
Cheers,
Jim
Again, we are not talking about homosexuality here. We are talking about human birth defects and medical corrections. I haven't read anyone defend homosexuality. I haven't read of anyone practicing a union outside the norm once the medical issue has been settled.
Then, if we believed that God created each person as some are suggesting, then we must also make God the author of sin, or at least deny original sin and the need for regeneration of a life that is dead in sin and trespasses.
Let's try and get some theological consistency here and now. Maybe a little maturity in dealing with real issues.
Cheers,
Jim
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
No, God does not make mistakes. While some people are born with diseases and abnormalities, they are born in such conditions that the glory of God might be made manifest. (See John 9)
Man makes it a medical issue, rather than accepting the child the way God made them. The real issue is really the condition of man's heart rather than the condition of the body.
God is not the author of sin. God allows sin, but He is not the author of sin.
Theological consistency? Sure. Show me in the Bible where a person had a sex change operation and God was pleased with it.
Oh, wow, so much heat and so little light.
You know, having a sex change operation is SOMETIMES done to correct a medical condition.
There are some folks born with plumbing that is of one gender and yet dna of either the other gender or both genders. So which are they?
There are cases where a fraternal twin set, one male and one female, fuse at the one or two cell state. It is where you get hermaphrodites....which may be obvious by both sets of plumbing being present, or partially male and partially female plumbing.
There are cases where they are the same gender twins that fuse. There have been some cases where the birth mom tested as not her birth child's mom, "proven" by dna tests. Further tests showed they were chimeras--this fused twin thing--with dna of the other twin, found in some of their cells, being the mother-match.
There have even been chimeras that were racially different with a sort of checkerboard effect.
So if a person has both male and female dna, say with a female brain and male plumbing or some of both plumbing, are they sinning to correct this?
Is it any different than correcting a club foot?
You know, having a sex change operation is SOMETIMES done to correct a medical condition.
There are some folks born with plumbing that is of one gender and yet dna of either the other gender or both genders. So which are they?
There are cases where a fraternal twin set, one male and one female, fuse at the one or two cell state. It is where you get hermaphrodites....which may be obvious by both sets of plumbing being present, or partially male and partially female plumbing.
There are cases where they are the same gender twins that fuse. There have been some cases where the birth mom tested as not her birth child's mom, "proven" by dna tests. Further tests showed they were chimeras--this fused twin thing--with dna of the other twin, found in some of their cells, being the mother-match.
There have even been chimeras that were racially different with a sort of checkerboard effect.
So if a person has both male and female dna, say with a female brain and male plumbing or some of both plumbing, are they sinning to correct this?
Is it any different than correcting a club foot?
menageriekeeper
Active Member
LEt me make sure I have this right:
You believe that God is better served by allowing birth defects to remain than He is if those birth defects are fixed?
And not only is God better served by not fixing conditions/defects/diseases, but it is somehow sinful to attempt a fix?
Please tell me you didn't mean that, because when you paint with such a board brush, you include babies born with cleft palate, spinda bifida, cerebral palsy. Do you really believe that we shouldn't attempt to help those that are suffering? Only a healthy person that is unlearned in the scriptures would believe that.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Believe me, I am far from healthy. And I am very learned in the Scripture.
Romans 9:20 (KJV) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Last edited by a moderator:
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
And spina bifida, cerebral palsy and cleft palatte have nothing to do with sex change. You are comparing apples with oranges.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Why don't you just come right out and say what you mean?
The proof is in the pudding....
Hmmm, I can tell you know quite a bit about taking scripture out of context. This says nothing of medical science trying to fix or relieve what the corruption of this world has caused. The passage above isn't in the same REALM of context as what you seem to be saying.
How about this one instead(after all if you can quote scripture out of context, I can certainly use it IN context):
Jer 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
Or,
Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
Or,
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Yeah, I like that last one the best.
So, in light of the content of these verses are you going to still try to convince me that a person should just suffer through their infimaties to "better glorify God" or are you going to admit that what you really think is that everyone deserves to be fixed as well as science can EXCEPT for those unfortunate souls who happen to suffer from a physical gender defect?
The proof is in the pudding....
Hmmm, I can tell you know quite a bit about taking scripture out of context. This says nothing of medical science trying to fix or relieve what the corruption of this world has caused. The passage above isn't in the same REALM of context as what you seem to be saying.
How about this one instead(after all if you can quote scripture out of context, I can certainly use it IN context):
Jer 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
Or,
Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
Or,
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Yeah, I like that last one the best.
So, in light of the content of these verses are you going to still try to convince me that a person should just suffer through their infimaties to "better glorify God" or are you going to admit that what you really think is that everyone deserves to be fixed as well as science can EXCEPT for those unfortunate souls who happen to suffer from a physical gender defect?
menageriekeeper
Active Member
You know, I get accused of this a lot. But you are wrong. Both spina bifida and cleft palates are defects that occur in the womb, just as a gender defect does. Cerebral palsy can occur inside the womb OR it can occur as a birth injury. We aren't talking apples and oranges (which by the way have quite a bit in common), we ARE talking about prejudices that occur out of ignorance of the facts that are known about gender defects.