Explicit future denials of apostasy of true children of God

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Zenas: Look what this says, DW. These people escaped the pollutions of the world and then became entangled again. They had known the way of righteousness and then turned away. . The dog and the sow returned to their vomit and wallow. You can't return to something unless you have been away from it.

HP: Zenas, let God’s Word be true and every man a liar. You are absolutely right on and let nothing or anybody deter you from it. Unlike them, we need to use these clear admonitions to make our calling and election certain.

The problem with JK, DW, DHK and others is that most of the time in reality, neither context , nor grammar or the GK, nor reason or logic, nor pre or post cross, for they are all employed merely as a means to an end when it is deemed by them advantageous to do so. What it is all about is providing cover for an unproven presupposition known as OSAS. Hang in there!:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

The problem with JK, DW, DHK and others is that most of the time in reality, neither context , nor grammar or the GK, nor reason or logic, nor pre or post cross, for they are all employed merely as a means to an end when it is deemed by them advantageous to do so. What it is all about is providing cover for an unproven presupposition known as OSAS. Hang in there!:thumbs:

I don't gamble. If I did I would place a wager that HP has not read the context that he refers to. Otherwise he would not post such gibberish.

Let's look at it.
CONTEXT
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
--This is context: False teachers and false prophets that are bringing into the church damnable heresies.

2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
--True believers aren't the HP?

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
--A servant of corruption is not a saved individual.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
--False teachers know the way of righteousness. So does Satan and all of his demons know the way of righteousness. Knowledge is one thing.

2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
--And as the proverb goes.
They remained dogs, and they remained pigs. They were not converted. Their habits were not changed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: Zenas, let God’s Word be true and every man a liar. You are absolutely right on and let nothing or anybody deter you from it. Unlike them, we need to use these clear admonitions to make our calling and election certain.

The problem with JK, DW, DHK and others is that most of the time in reality, neither context , nor grammar or the GK, nor reason or logic, nor pre or post cross, for they are all employed merely as a means to an end when it is deemed by them advantageous to do so. What it is all about is providing cover for an unproven presupposition known as OSAS. Hang in there!:thumbs:

When a person is really saved they are a "new creature" with a new attitude and new want to. Unforunately, I have baptized some that were my converts instead of the Lord's and there is a huge difference. A person can know the truth with their mind but six inches away from the heart it does no good (metaphorically speaking). It is "with the heart man beleiveth unto righteousness."

Only one person in this entire context is called righteous, or godly and that is Lot. The rest of the context is primarily about the RELIGIOUS lost.

Note that consistently these are described as "among" true children of God but without fruits of the new birth and thus still under judgement by God.

"and bring upon themselves swift destruction" - v. 1

"their damnation slumbereth not" - v. 3

"but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" - v. 4

"upon the world of the ungodly; v. 5

"the filthy conversation of the wicked:" v. 6

"to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" - v. 9

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed" - v. 12

"Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children - vv. 13-14

"These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." - v. 18

Verses 19-22 refer to those who have had a REFORMATION but not a TRANSFORMATION as they are still "dogs" and still "pigs".


20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These are the same kind that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 12 that REFORM themselves but were never made a "good" tree by transformation:

Mt. 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Transformation by New birth must occur rather than Reformation by new truth.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: “the heart man beleiveth unto righteousness."

HP: That is an interesting verse indeed. Tell us DW, how does one believe with the heart? If one merely has head knowledge, can that be considered believing with the heart?

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: That is an interesting verse indeed. Tell us DW, how does one believe with the heart? If one merely has head knowledge, can that be considered believing with the heart?

I believe Abraham Lincoln was a real historical figure. However, I am not trust my soul for eternal salvation on that historical data.

Demons believe in God but that does not mean they are trusting in God for salvation.

The right mental data is important or else you don't have a basis for truth but simply knowing the data does not save anyone.

The use of "heart" and "mind" or "soul" in the bible primarily refers to the conscience self (intellect, will and emotions) and the choice of terms such as "mind" or "heart" usually place more emphasis upon one aspect over the other without excluding the others.

Saving faith requires the involvement of all three aspects of the inward man in regard to the gospel simeltaneously. The mind must be able to grasp the data as truth. That truth must be received as an object of love rather than hate in the heart. The will simply acts as the servant of the mind and heart submitting to the truth as ones only true hope of salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: I believe Abraham Lincoln was a real historical figure. However, I am not trust my soul for eternal salvation on that historical data.

HP: Agreed.

DW: Demons believe in God but that does not mean they are trusting in God for salvation.

HP: Agreed.

DW: The right mental data is important or else you don't have a basis for truth but simply knowing the data does not save anyone.

HP: Agreed.

DW:The use of "heart" and "mind" or "soul" in the bible primarily refers to the conscience self (intellect, will and emotions) and the choice of terms such as "mind" or "heart" usually place more emphasis upon one aspect over the other without excluding the others.

HP: Now here is precisely what I am speaking about when I mention philosophy.:thumbs: Would you not agree that your philosophy as stated will inevitably impact how you interpret Scripture? Would you not also agree that if ones philosophy is in error their theology might in fact be impacted negatively as well?

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: Now here is precisely what I am speaking about when I mention philosophy.:thumbs: Would you not agree that your philosophy as stated will inevitably impact how you interpret Scripture? Would you not also agree that if ones philosophy is in error their theology might in fact be impacted negatively as well? [/FONT][/COLOR]

I don't understand what there is to disagree on with my statement above. I really don't know of anyone that does not admit that "mind" has to do with the conscious self with emphasis upon thinking, reasoning, understanding. I don't know of anyone that does not admit that "heart" has to do with the inward conscious self with emphasis upon emotion such as love, hate, anger, fear, etc. I don't know of anyone that does not admit that "will" has to do with the power of choice governed or determined by one's thinking or feeling. These seem to be very self-evident truths concerning the conscious self. I could go through the tons of Biblical data to demonstrate these things are true but is that really necessary?

If I tried to separate and isolate these inward conscious functions from one another then that is another story. I never said they could be seperated or isolated but they are always working simeltaneously with emphasis on one more than the other at times.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Would you not agree that your philosophy as stated will inevitably impact how you interpret Scripture? Would you not also agree that if ones philosophy is in error their theology might in fact be impacted negatively as well?

 

[Jedi Knight]

The problem with JK, DW, DHK and others is that most of the time in reality, neither context , nor grammar or the GK, nor reason or logic, nor pre or post cross, for they are all employed merely as a means to an end when it is deemed by them advantageous to do so. What it is all about is providing cover for an unproven presupposition known as OSAS. Hang in there!:thumbs:[/FONT][/COLOR]

Is Pride a sin anymore? Arrogance? If you really believe as you do that you can sin so far and loose your salvation..........Oh but you must of got a get outta Hell free card for this.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Is Pride a sin anymore? Arrogance? If you really believe as you do that you can sin so far and loose your salvation....I would be shaking in my boots!

HP: JK, the manner in which you word that sounds a bit 'self incriminating' to me. Logic might conclude that there is clearly sin in the life of JK, otherwise why would he think he would be shaking???? Just wondering.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: JK, the manner in which you word that sounds a bit 'self incriminating' to me. Logic might conclude that there is clearly sin in the life of JK, otherwise why would he think he would be shaking???? Just wondering.

Obviously you didn't read too well
.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Oh, sorry.

 

[steaver]

HP,

You get defeated over and over again in these OSAS debates when it comes to context.

DW and DHK clearly laid out the context of 2 Peter 2 and yet you ignore it.

Why?

Who is the one here looking at the scriptures through their own personal philosphy?

Can you admit that 2 Peter 2 is speaking about FALSE converts?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: false convert

HP: That sounds like an oxymoron to me. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: That sounds like an oxymoron to me. :thumbs:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Since verse one speaks clearly of false prophets and false teachers, that is probably what Steaver had in mind. It is evident that no matter which way you look at it these individuals had never been saved.

 

[Zenas]

Did you see sheep here anywhere? Were talking dogs and hogs....not sheep. They return because thats what they are. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. Sheep if you wana sharp contrast is what Jesus said in John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Sheep are naturally clean so you can't use the analogy. Dogs and pigs are dirty animals who had become clean (saved) and then returned to their natural state (unclean/unsaved). By the way, the natural state of man is dirty/unclean. We are only made clean by the blood of Christ, but we are always free to return to our natural sinful state.

 

[Zenas]

OK, I've caught up with the debate now. So far no one has explained the concept of 2 Peter 2: 20-22. Each of these three verses restate the principle of a sinner being saved and then returning to his sinful habits. You can repeat ad nauseum that they weren't really saved but verses like this belie it. There are numerous others, e.g., Galatians 5:4 "You have fallen from grace." You can't fall from grace unless you were first in a state of grace. By the way, what is the difference between being saved and being "really" saved?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

False teachers teach falsehoods, and false prophets make false prophesies, but what does a false ‘convert’ do?? If they are a convert and OSAS rules, nothing can separate them from Christ now can it? Once a convert always a convert. OSAS states nothing false can exist in a convert, that matters anyway. So, define a 'false convert.'

 

[Jedi Knight]

Sheep are naturally clean so you can't use the analogy. Dogs and pigs are dirty animals who had become clean (saved) and then returned to their natural state (unclean/unsaved). By the way, the natural state of man is dirty/unclean. We are only made clean by the blood of Christ, but we are always free to return to our natural sinful state.

I disagree. If ones nature is not changed they will go back. You can take a pig and wash it,put a big red bow and nice perfume....BUT they will run back to the mud because they are pigs by nature. They were never changed on the INSIDE to begin with. So yes...I can use that analogy.

 

[DHK]

False teachers teach falsehoods, and false prophets make false prophesies, but what does a false ‘convert’ do?? If they are a convert and OSAS rules, nothing can separate them from Christ now can it? Once a convert always a convert. OSAS states nothing false can exist in a convert, that matters anyway. So, define a 'false convert.'

Why are you dwelling on this.
Steaver referred to both me and DW giving you the proper context.
And then mistakenly he says false "convert" when I believe he meant "false teacher." You can ask him to make sure. But that is what I believe he meant. After all, he did say that I gave you the proper context. Chalk it up to a slip of the "keyboard."